I know we're used to disappointment as Melbourne fans, but Viney and Toumpas are elite talents that I believe will very quickly start making their mark.

Richmond fans will say the same about Conca and Vlastuin.

I agree with you that one star can raise the whole midfield up and that's what Cotchin does. If I'm even-handed (some +/- each way) I'll say:

Jones = Deledio (quality not style)

Sylvia = Martin

Toumpas = Conca

Viney = Vlastuin

Grigg, Foley, Tuck and Jackson have to be matched by Grimes, Trengove, Howe and McKenzie

Then yes I'll accept your premise that they're just Cotchin ahead, but that's still a long way.

Richmond fans will say the same about Conca and Vlastuin.

Trengove,Watts,Sylvia,Bryce Gibbs ,Kruezer ?

Those 18 year olds never just go and win a flag by themselves first up do they?

Richmond fans will say the same about Conca and Vlastuin.

I agree with you that one star can raise the whole midfield up and that's what Cotchin does. If I'm even-handed (some +/- each way) I'll say:

Jones = Deledio (quality not style)

Sylvia = Martin

Toumpas = Conca

Viney = Vlastuin

Grigg, Foley, Tuck and Jackson have to be matched by Grimes, Trengove, Howe and McKenzie

Then yes I'll accept your premise that they're just Cotchin ahead, but that's still a long way.

I'll be disappointed if Viney doesn't crap on Vlastuin and Toumpas isn't an upgrade on Conca. Many rated Toumpas behind only Whitfield as far as mids went in the draft. And Vlastuin lacks pace and endurance, which is why he'll play off a half-back flank. I'm not suggesting that Vlastuin won't turn into a good player, but as far as mids go Viney creams him.

Viney has a mature body already and the professionalism of players in leadership groups. Viney may never be a superstar of the competition (although he may), but he will be the equivalent of a third year mid in his first year.

I'll be disappointed if Viney doesn't crap on Vlastuin and Toumpas isn't an upgrade on Conca. Many rated Toumpas behind only Whitfield as far as mids went in the draft. And Vlastuin lacks pace and endurance, which is why he'll play off a half-back flank. I'm not suggesting that Vlastuin won't turn into a good player, but as far as mids go Viney creams him.

Viney has a mature body already and the professionalism of players in leadership groups. Viney may never be a superstar of the competition (although he may), but he will be the equivalent of a third year mid in his first year.

You say this on the basis of one VFL game in which he got his jaw broken by Wocjinski.

I think he has the crucial abilties required but be prepared for him to make plenty of errors.

Even the Tommohawk took a while before he became less than a liability.

You say this on the basis of one VFL game in which he got his jaw broken by Wocjinski.

I think he has the crucial abilties required but be prepared for him to make plenty of errors.

Even the Tommohawk took a while before he became less than a liability.

The guy was a better player at the Oakleigh Chargers than Toby Greene and we know what Greene did in his first year - averaged 27 disposals.

He was the TAC Medalist in 2011 with 34 possessions in a game that Greene played in.

Some players with under developed frames make their debut while still at school, such as Dan Hannebery, but Viney has a very developed body and has already trained with an AFL side for a year and will be 19 nearly the entire season.

Viney is the best inside mid that many have seen in juniors for 5 years.

A lot say that Viney is the hardest player they've seen in juniors. This from Knightmare, "I have plenty of faith in Viney and have seen more than enough of him over the past two years to be sold on his game. He is one of those types where you want him on your team and his competitiveness and hardness rates up there and in my view exceeds that of Joel Selwood and Luke Hodge." From Quigley, "Is head and shoulders the best inside mid in this draft . He was well worth the number 2 pick its just a shame that they (Gold Coast) didnt bid for him."

As a 14 year old he played in a flag at school with Trengove and Tapscott.

I watch him in the stoppage drills at training and he's already a stand out.

So no, I don't say it off the basis of "1 VFL game". My Brother sat next to Garry Lyon at a dinner in 2,000 when Viney was 8 and Lyon said then he was a gun. I've been following him for 10 years, from Ashburton where he won 4 B&F's to SA.

Look mate, I know you don't get it and I don't care. I normally don't indulge lightweights with the IQ of a brick, but was feeling generous on my birthday. Off to dinner now.

The guy was a better player at the Oakleigh Chargers than Toby Greene and we know what Greene did in his first year - averaged 27 disposals.

He was the TAC Medalist in 2011 with 34 possessions in a game that Greene played in.

Some players with under developed frames make their debut while still at school, such as Dan Hannebery, but Viney has a very developed body and has already trained with an AFL side for a year and will be 19 nearly the entire season.

Viney is the best inside mid that many have seen in juniors for 5 years.

A lot say that Viney is the hardest player they've seen in juniors. This from Knightmare, "I have plenty of faith in Viney and have seen more than enough of him over the past two years to be sold on his game. He is one of those types where you want him on your team and his competitiveness and hardness rates up there and in my view exceeds that of Joel Selwood and Luke Hodge." From Quigley, "Is head and shoulders the best inside mid in this draft . He was well worth the number 2 pick it’s just a shame that they (Gold Coast) didn’t bid for him."

As a 14 year old he played in a flag at school with Trengove and Tapscott.

I watch him in the stoppage drills at training and he's already a stand out.

So no, I don't say it off the basis of "1 VFL game". My Brother sat next to Garry Lyon at a dinner in 2,000 when Viney was 8 and said he was a gun. I've been following him for 10 years.

Look mate, I know you don't get it and I don't care. I normally don't indulge lightweights with the IQ of a brick, but was feeling generous on my birthday. Off to dinner now.

OK-enjoy your Birthday dinner Ben.

Hannebery dominated at school level as well .I played against his family members for years .They are cousins of the O'Sullivans(Rhino) and from huge families.(in size and number).He killed them at Xavier just as Toby Greene killed Xavier at Wesley.

Prince Alfred College is a little different to AFL also .

I played against PAC, and we kicked their ass every time as well despite them having some future AFL gun players in their team at the time .(Craig Kelly was one)

Vineys first game in AFL seconds saw him get decked .FACT

Toby Greene beat Xavier off his own boot .

The last decent Wesley boy to represent MFC was Ivor Warne Smith.

If schoolboy footy was the same as AFL then I'd be Leigh Matthews.

Suck in your expectations and learn from experience that 18 year old just are not the magic pudding.

If he plays 20 games and gets a kick it will be great I agree .

When was the last time you saw a kid dominate?

JV will be the next Barassi.......................you heard it here first

OK-enjoy your Birthday dinner Ben.

Hannebery dominated at school level as well .I played against his family members for years .They are cousins of the O'Sullivans(Rhino) and from huge families.(in size and number).He killed them at Xavier just as Toby Greene killed Xavier at Wesley.

Prince Alfred College is a little different to AFL also .

I played against PAC, and we kicked their ass every time as well despite them having some future AFL gun players in their team at the time .(Craig Kelly was one)

Vineys first game in AFL seconds saw him get decked .FACT

Toby Greene beat Xavier off his own boot .

The last decent Wesley boy to represent MFC was Ivor Warne Smith.

If schoolboy footy was the same as AFL then I'd be Leigh Matthews.

Suck in your expectations and learn from experience that 18 year old just are not the magic pudding.

If he plays 20 games and gets a kick it will be great I agree .

When was the last time you saw a kid dominate?

I'm not saying he's going to "dominate".

And yes, I'm aware of Hannebery and the Xavier connection. I went to Xavier, was in the same year as his Father, and my Nephew is one of his best mates. Dan had a poor under 18 championships, but was never going to leave any stone unturned to be the best he could. I advocated recruiting him at the time.

JV will be the next Barassi.......................you heard it here first

Quick dc pinch yourself I think you have dropped off at the keyboard.

I'm not saying he's going to "dominate".

And yes, I'm aware of Hannebery and the Xavier connection. I went to Xavier, was in the same year as his Father, and my Nephew is one of his best mates. Dan had a poor under 18 championships, but was never going to leave any stone unturned to be the best he could. I advocated recruiting him at the time.

That explains plenty Ben.

Private school footy is different to the big time.

I expect him to take a while to adjust .

Quick dc pinch yourself I think you have dropped off at the keyboard.

No, i'm serious. so many similarities esp in his desire and aggression

We'll just have to wait a few years to see od

I got Howe right well before we drafted him and i don't go early on many

No, i'm serious. so many similarities esp in his desire and aggression

We'll just have to wait a few years to see od

I got Howe right well before we drafted him and i don't go early on many

Gee it is a big statement dc.

I will be happy to admit you know more than me

But I just don't see that much potential.

Good yes but champion status wow!

Gee it is a big statement dc.

I will be happy to admit you know more than me

But I just don't see that much potential.

Good yes but champion status wow!

Barassi wasn't great because of skills (in fact they weren't great) but his intensity and fierce never-say-die spirit and ability to lift and bring the team with him. And of course his great leadership and non-stop desire to find any way to improve himself.

That's what i see in Jack....and he plays the ruck-rover role

I know i'm sticking my neck out and going early which is not my usual style (as far as players go that is - lol)

Barassi wasn't great because of skills (in fact they weren't great) but his intensity and fierce never-say-die spirit and ability to lift and bring the team with him. And of course his great leadership and non-stop desire to find any way to improve himself.

That's what i see in Jack....and he plays the ruck-rover role

I know i'm sticking my neck out and going early which is not my usual style (as far as players go that is - lol)

Well I look forward to you telling me I told you so!

Barassi wasn't great because of skills (in fact they weren't great) but his intensity and fierce never-say-die spirit and ability to lift and bring the team with him. And of course his great leadership and non-stop desire to find any way to improve himself.

That's what i see in Jack....and he plays the ruck-rover role

I know i'm sticking my neck out and going early which is not my usual style (as far as players go that is - lol)

Is that enough in this era of footy? There are "lazy" players with elite skills, there are "poor" skilled players with incredible desire to win... to me you need both to be truly elite.

I say "lazy" and "poor" only in comparasion to the top talent in the AFL, of course compared to anyone who isnt in the hightest grade of there particular sport its no contest

Having said that I have never been as excited for a new draftee than Viney, maybe Scully who I stiill think will be a gun, not that I want to turn this into one of those arguments.

I wasn't implying Barassi or Viney didn't/don't have reasonable skills, just that their biggest assets were/are not their skills.

Of course they have/had good skills and in Jack's case they could develop to be elite

It was just that my comparison to Barassi was more focussed on the competitive aspects of both

Barassi didn't win his place in history through exquisite skills but he also was no slouch in the skills area

Barassi's strengths would be strengths in any era

Anyway FWIW I just see a lot of Barassi in young Jack..................only time will tell

JV will be the next Barassi.......................you heard it here first

Id just be happy if JV was the next Viney

Also

Both inside midfielders

Both Father/Son Selections

Similar size - Barassi was 179 cm / 87 kg

Im catching what your throwing, Im picking up what your putting down

I have never seen a young player drafted that goes so hard, and is so competitive... It will be a joy to watch

yes but the article was about the possibility of making Top 4, as if the Top 8 is a certainty.

As always i hope Richmond finish 9th winning a few late in the year.

Let us not forget that the GC Suns have beaten them twice thus far.

Their Backbone is way to Flaky for Top 4.

But round 1 is always a good laugh.

I must be more bitter and twisted than you. As always, I hope Richmond finish 9th after losing a few late in the year.

That explains plenty Ben.

Private school footy is different to the big time.

I expect him to take a while to adjust .

Happy to help. Viney will adjust very quickly. He plays like Joel Selwood and his approach is just as manic, if not more so. Selwood took to AFL like a duck to water, playing 21 games in year one and averaging 19 disposals. By year two he was averaging 25 and has never averaged less since. There's no reason Viney won't follow a similar path.

There's been no young mid in recent times that has been both physically and mentally more ready for AFL footy than Jack Viney.

I also understand the argument that Selwwod was surrounded by champion mids and I don't dismiss this significance, however one has to remember how they both play. They're not outside receivers relying on quality mids, they're inside mids that win their own footy and spread well. They make life easier for the players around them and Viney, like Selwood, will have this impact early in his career. Selwood really found his feet halfway through year one.

Selwood really found his feet halfway through year one.

Viney Snr found his feet pretty quickly too, appointed Vice Captain in his second season after just 15 games for the club.

Viney Snr found his feet pretty quickly too, appointed Vice Captain in his second season after just 15 games for the club.

That's easier to do when you play your first season as a 21 year old.

Interesting look into their training. They won't need to improve much on their 2012 season to make the finals.

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/video/2012-12-07/training-7th-december

There's another dimension to this discussion that hasn't been touched on here yet and that is the base from which Melbourne will be coming next year.

Our 2012 season was littered with one disaster after another both on and off the field. I'm guessing that in 2013 we're not going to have our main forward facing major criminal charges, the death of a president, fiascos with sponsors, the coach being defamed by a liar, an overblown injury list and a small but influential group of players either not interested in or incapable of following the coach's game plan or not possessing the work ethic necessary to get the club to the place to which a professional sporting organisation should aspire.

Absent all of those things and suddenly, we start 2013 not as the 16th best side in the competition but perhaps as just outside the top 10, say 12th best.

That's the platform from which I see us starting our new campaign and that's not such a difficult proposition. It pushes us ahead of the Bulldogs, Port Adelaide, Brisbane (who I don't rate very highly) and Essendon (who we outperformed in the last half of 2012 anyway).

We've added 14 players who make up a third of our list and you can add Michael Evans, Max Gawn and Rory Taggert to that list. They played no part on the field this year and are virtually recruits for next year along with Mitch Clark (fingers crossed) who missed the second half. Granted, some of the new blood will not play a major role but some most certainly will - the newcomers have been well described as eminently coachable and, like BH, I have fairly bullish expectations of Viney and Toumpas who, unlike most of the top 10 draft picks in this year's crop, have played with and against men and done so admirably.

The step up in intensity of training has been noticed by many and it will bear fruit in the improvement, particularly of the young talent who remain from the Bailey/BBBP era. What most of these blokes needed was a lesson in what hard work on the track can achieve and, in people like Neeld, Craig and Misson, I believe we have the people to instil the right ethos into the team - Nod to Neil Craig for shaping Adelaide Crows

OK, that might sound like a PR job from someone wearing rose coloured glasses and might not directly address Fan's excellent point about our midfield deficiencies of the past but my point is that we have the perfect springboard in place to attack the new season given that the breaks go our way in 2013 instead of against us as they did in 2012.