GWS have just delisted Dean Brogan today. Grundy would be a cert to be picked in first 3. A major piece to the Wines puzzle and pick 4.

I don't think it is that simple. One is not a replacement for the other.

They are clearly looking to get Tippett.

I don't know why though, Cameron and Patton might need some help but Tippett is a FP/back up ruck. He doesn't want to be 1st ruck.

Assuming we finish outside the top 8 in 2013 ... and assuming we beat the tanking rap ... it should be remembered that we will have a top 10 pick to play with next year as well.

I would prefer us to go for the engine room accumulator first before adding the outside cream next year. Wines in '012, the "O'Rourke type" in '013.

I actually think it's the other way around. Outside players usually need time to build up their body and learn to read the game, get to the right places and hone their skills. Inside types can usually play straight off the bat. Going by this logic, you draft the outside type first to give them extra time to develop, then get the inside type later as they are usually ready to go.

Toumpas, O'Rourke or Macrae this year, inside mid next year.

I posted much of this elsewhere, but it's more appropriate here - even though it's as useful as most other contributions, i.e. not very much.

It's a vexed question for me, which is why I still haven't voted in the other thread. O'Rourke has more speed, class and is a better kick. Wines is a bigger bodied clever distributor who is a better mark, a stronger tackler with a real competitive streak. Wines is an accumulator who averaged 24 possessions in the championships, which is fantastic seeing they're 80 minute games, and can push forward and kick a goal. O'Rourke also has very good footy smarts, but more class. I suspect O'Rourke has a higher ceiling, although Wines might be the surer bet to be at least A grade, but without ever being a superstar*. O'Rourke the more likely chance to be a superstar, but bearing in mind how few superstars there are it's still not likely. O'Rourke has the type of class associated with a top 5 pick, but does Wines ? My guess is no.

I like big bodied inside mids and that's what you get with Wines. My hope for Wines is that he'd be better than Hannebery, or a Nathan Jones type. I'd hope him to be in the ilk of Watson, Josh Kennedy, or Scotty Thompson. None of those are superstars, none have pace, or top-shelf skills, but they're all elite and All Australian mids.

O'Rourke is harder to peg, but perhaps more your Daisy Thomas, Gaff, Gibbs, Simpson, type. Can O'Rourke be as strong over the ball as a Beams or Shuey ? That's what you'd be hoping for and if so he'd become the complete package.

I love big bodied mids, but does Wines have enough class. Conversely, does O'Rourke have the contested ball winning ability to excel in the AFL ? He does in juniors, but it's a much bigger step. Will the game of AFL change direction again, where O'Rourke's attributes become more important than Wines ? Although winning contested footy has never gone out of vogue.

I'd be happy with either and have to back the club. Right now I probably have a slight leaning to Wines. I look at Sydney's midfield of Kennedy, O'Keefe, Bolton, McVeigh, Hannebery, Jack and Jetta. There's a pretty common theme in that group. Strong bodied contested ball winning mids - save Jetta. Hawthorn are similar with Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis and Hodge. I'm confident Wines will be able to emulate those type of players. O'Rourke may too, but I'm not as sure. But, as stated, I acknowledge that my opinion in this matter is either side of worthless.

Jones, Viney, Trengove, Wines, Grimes, Howe, Sylvia and Blease. Is that the nucleus of a premiership midfield ? It would need three or four of those to become elite.

*My idea of a superstar is Carey, Matthews, Hird, Voss, Williams, Lockett...

But what is your idea of "elite"?

I feel the same way - O'Rourke almost looks like a young Pendlebury with Judd's breakaway pace, but it's all against juniors, and Wines is a surer bet to capitalise on his potential.

Wines for me in a close one.

If GWS take Tippett and Grundy and Whitfield, then surely we are looking at Wines Vs Toumpass?

Tippett bypassing the ND, going straight in the PSD, so won't be one of the first 3 picks.

Got it. Toumpas gone unless GWS get wacky. Is Toumpas a obviously better pick than Wines?

Got it. Toumpas gone unless GWS get wacky. Is Toumpas a obviously better pick than Wines?

Toumpas is a complete midfielder. He may not have the hardness of Wines in close, but he has elite skills & decision making ability. He can win contested & uncontested possessions. He also has enough pace & penetration in his kicking to make his possessions 70-80 meter line breakers. Toumpas would be the obvious pick if he slipped through to 4 but it won't happen. He is the pick of the draft for mine & will be better than Whitfield.

I posted much of this elsewhere, but it's more appropriate here - even though it's as useful as most other contributions, i.e. not very much.

It's a vexed question for me, which is why I still haven't voted in the other thread. O'Rourke has more speed, class and is a better kick. Wines is a bigger bodied clever distributor who is a better mark, a stronger tackler with a real competitive streak. Wines is an accumulator who averaged 24 possessions in the championships, which is fantastic seeing they're 80 minute games, and can push forward and kick a goal. O'Rourke also has very good footy smarts, but more class. I suspect O'Rourke has a higher ceiling, although Wines might be the surer bet to be at least A grade, but without ever being a superstar*. O'Rourke the more likely chance to be a superstar, but bearing in mind how few superstars there are it's still not likely. O'Rourke has the type of class associated with a top 5 pick, but does Wines ? My guess is no.

I like big bodied inside mids and that's what you get with Wines. My hope for Wines is that he'd be better than Hannebery, or a Nathan Jones type. I'd hope him to be in the ilk of Watson, Josh Kennedy, or Scotty Thompson. None of those are superstars, none have pace, or top-shelf skills, but they're all elite and All Australian mids.

O'Rourke is harder to peg, but perhaps more your Daisy Thomas, Gaff, Gibbs, Simpson, type. Can O'Rourke be as strong over the ball as a Beams or Shuey ? That's what you'd be hoping for and if so he'd become the complete package.

I love big bodied mids, but does Wines have enough class. Conversely, does O'Rourke have the contested ball winning ability to excel in the AFL ? He does in juniors, but it's a much bigger step. Will the game of AFL change direction again, where O'Rourke's attributes become more important than Wines ? Although winning contested footy has never gone out of vogue.

I'd be happy with either and have to back the club. Right now I probably have a slight leaning to Wines. I look at Sydney's midfield of Kennedy, O'Keefe, Bolton, McVeigh, Hannebery, Jack and Jetta. There's a pretty common theme in that group. Strong bodied contested ball winning mids - save Jetta. Hawthorn are similar with Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis and Hodge. I'm confident Wines will be able to emulate those type of players. O'Rourke may too, but I'm not as sure. But, as stated, I acknowledge that my opinion in this matter is either side of worthless.

Jones, Viney, Trengove, Wines, Grimes, Howe, Sylvia and Blease. Is that the nucleus of a premiership midfield ? It would need three or four of those to become elite.

*My idea of a superstar is Carey, Matthews, Hird, Voss, Williams, Lockett...

I agree with you here BH, a well thought out post. I too haven't seen enough of either to justify saying which one is better at this stage, and although I'm always going to be a fan of an accumulator with a manic attack on the footy (Wines), I think it's important to note that a minute of highlights for each hardly makes me an expert.

Although its a pretty open ended statement, I'll happily put my faith in the FD to make the right decision simply because they have scouts that have been following these guys for a long time - another topic entirely, but it does make you wonder though how we've got so many high draft picks wrong over the years!

For mine the debate shouldn't be 'which one will address our lack of outside pace therefore o'rourke over wines', the debate should be 'which one do we think most likely to turn into a genuine star'- whether that's in the same mould of Pendles or Watson I really don't care!

But what is your idea of "elite"?

I gave you three examples. Not enough ?

Murphy, Watson, Thompson, O'Keefe, Enright, Fisher - A graders capable of performing at genuine A grade level for a number of years. Josh Kennedy hasn't done it for long enough and maybe not Murphy, but they seemed to have reached a standard they should be able to maintain. That's my definition.

I keep "superstar" for superstars.

A good indicator of Wines future transition into AFL, I think, is former #5 draft pick Ben Cunnington. As a kid he dominated under 18 football as a tough inside midfielder who was capable going forward and impacting the scoreboard. His transition into AFL certainly hasn't taken the world by storm, but he has been useful addition to the North midfield and would certainly walk into our team and be the second/third best midfielder. His foot speed and kicking ability has, and probably will continue to, hold him back from being a gun but he is a regular contributor and I expect Wines to be of a similar ilk.

Tippett bypassing the ND, going straight in the PSD, so won't be one of the first 3 picks.

I've just re-read your question and my answer and I probably didn't "get" what you meant. It's a good question. What defines elite? Many of us will have different views. For me, as I stated, it's regular A grade output. It's someone who would be often considered for the AA squad of 40. It's someone that would usually be in their club's best 5 players. It's someone universally admired for their output and consistency.

Nathan Jones had a border-line A grade year and won a B&F, but it's too early to call him elite. 2012 needs to become his benchmark.

I hope that's a better clarification.

Tippett bypassing the ND, going straight in the PSD, so won't be one of the first 3 picks.

He isnt good enough anyway imo to go top 3

I'm not sure that Cunnington was a great endurance runner. He spent a lot of time forward that year. Wines is almost exclusively an inside midfielder. He's also a bigger body than Cunnington.

If you were to compare him with a North mid then you'd be thinking of a better running Ziebell. Both of them are genuinely big midfielders (like Watson and Kennedy are).

Selecting Wines makes sense, based on the style of game that we have played this year. It involves a lot of stoppages and being able to get first hands on the ball to drive it forward. O'Rourke is a classy player, but Wines is a 'force of will' player that suits the style that we are looking to play. Not fancy. Not sublime. Just brutally, ruthlessly effective.

A good indicator of Wines future transition into AFL, I think, is former #5 draft pick Ben Cunnington. As a kid he dominated under 18 football as a tough inside midfielder who was capable going forward and impacting the scoreboard. His transition into AFL certainly hasn't taken the world by storm, but he has been useful addition to the North midfield and would certainly walk into our team and be the second/third best midfielder. His foot speed and kicking ability has, and probably will continue to, hold him back from being a gun but he is a regular contributor and I expect Wines to be of a similar ilk.

Wines tested at the draft combine already at 188/90. Cunnington is 185/86, Ziebell is a better comparison at 188/87.

WINES = NEELD'S STYLE

GAME OVER GUYS

I've just re-read your question and my answer and I probably didn't "get" what you meant. It's a good question. What defines elite? Many of us will have different views. For me, as I stated, it's regular A grade output. It's someone who would be often considered for the AA squad of 40. It's someone that would usually be in their club's best 5 players. It's someone universally admired for their output and consistency.

Nathan Jones had a border-line A grade year and won a B&F, but it's too early to call him elite. 2012 needs to become his benchmark.

I hope that's a better clarification.

Much closer to the answer I was looking for.

I really keyed in on your last few sentences and missed that you'd already given examples.

It just made me think of where Jones is at, what more he needs to do before we consider him elite, and how far off some of the others are.

It's a difficult thing to measure, and more done by feel than stats.

I'm not sure that Cunnington was a great endurance runner. He spent a lot of time forward that year. Wines is almost exclusively an inside midfielder. He's also a bigger body than Cunnington.

If you were to compare him with a North mid then you'd be thinking of a better running Ziebell. Both of them are genuinely big midfielders (like Watson and Kennedy are).

Ziebell is more damaging than I think Wines will be initially, JZ is more explosive and has a better kick than Wines. Whereas Cunnington's leg speed is comparable to Wines and will cut you up with handballs, winning the football and getting on the scoreboard

WINES WINES AND WINES

WE NEED MID FIELD GRUNT NO MORE NO LESS

TO BORROW A QUOTE...

"IF VINEY AND WINES END UP IN THE SAME MIDFIELD THERE WILL BE EXPLOSIONS"

or something like that!

That my friends, is good enough for me!

Wino for me!

I'm just happy we still have pick 4!

Wines seems to fit the bill

I actually think it's the other way around. Outside players usually need time to build up their body and learn to read the game, get to the right places and hone their skills. Inside types can usually play straight off the bat. Going by this logic, you draft the outside type first to give them extra time to develop, then get the inside type later as they are usually ready to go.

Toumpas, O'Rourke or Macrae this year, inside mid next year.

Interesting logic but I'd maintain that the outside player won't get enough chances to read the game and hone their skills if there is insufficient ball being shovelled out to them. Horse goes before the cart.

My opinion's limited by what I've read & viewed in highlight packages, not having seen either play live. So it's probably worthless.

On that basis though, I think O'Rourke brings a touch of breakaway speed & class that is missing from our midfield mix so I've voted for him.

That said, I fully expect the club to opt for Wines

Toumpas, in the unlikely event that he slips through to Pick 4 would trump both though

HUN suggesting both likely to be available as GWS seem poised to take Plowman.

The Giants' hunch on Lachie Plowman could poise the Dogs and Dees to cash in at the draft

Interesting.

I still think we should look at Stringer, probably the best all round talent in this draft.

I would love Toumpas to slide to us! He's the most well rounded midfielder in the draft. If we have to choose between Wines and O'Rourke, I'd prefer the later, but will be happy with either. Please Melbourne just develop them properly this time! We've drafted so much talent in the last few years and haven't developed it properly. We cannot afford to keep wasting first round picks!