On that premise, neither Hawthorn or the Swans will ever get close to a grand final, because most of their lists didn't get over 3 votes either, and are by your definition, "spuds".

Not to add, Collingwood who've been in or close to Grand Finals for years now, and whose recruiting has been widely praised on this board, are the ones who are into Martin. Obviously, they're just trying to build a team full of spuds.

Do you think we should keep Martin?

He turns 27 next year and we have just signed Jamar for 3 years meaning Martin will most likely be 2nd string ruckman until his almost 30.

He isnt a Key defender or forward so we have no real use for him.

Swans had 9 players who scored above 3 votes meaning the votes needed to be shared between players. Martin had no competition (except the opposition or Jones) who he would have needed to share votes against.

Not to get votes in a top team is different to not getting votes in a bottom team. When your in a bottom team you dont have star players taking them all, they are their for anybody to step up and take them. (And Martin didn't take any)

You would take Grundy instead of Martin because Grundy is coached well at the Swans. If Martin lined up for the Swans he's be a star. Our coaching is poor.

Our coaching HAS BEEN poor. It may or may not still be - only another preseason and season will tell.

Half our list are spuds including Martin. Did you not see the brownlow last night? Only player who scored over 3 votes for MFC was Jones.

By your criterion, that < 3 Brownlow votes = spud, we should sack all bar Jones and start again.

Your assertion that half our list are spuds is, by your criterion, a gross underestimate.

I cant be bothered going through all the teams but I wonder how many had > half the players getting > 3 votes. Not too many I imagine. Does that make "half their lists are spuds"?

And your maths fails to take into account (again I won't do he math) that the majority of votes go to the winning team, especially in one sided games.

We are so lucky that you are not list manager.

He turns 27 next year and we have just signed Jamar for 3 years meaning Martin will most likely be 2nd string ruckman until his almost 30.

You're being selective and even erroneous with your dates and ages.

Martin is 25. He'll be 26 at the end of this year, and will play next season as a 26 year old. If he stays for Jamar's 3 years, he would be 28 for season 2015.

Collingwood (and if rumours are to be believed, other clubs as well) are into him for a reason.

Get your head out of the sand. He is a fringe player in a team that came last when you dont count the new franchises.

If we hang onto fringe players then we are no hope of moving up the ladder.

Half our list are spuds including Martin. Did you not see the brownlow last night? Only player who scored over 3 votes for MFC was Jones.

Where would we have been last year without him in the ruck!?!? he held us together in the middle and was one of our best players during the time he was our number 1 ruckman! he also has outstanding agillity and speed for a guy his size! he may not always be the best decision maker or disposal player but these aspects of his game are all improving the longer we have him. i truely believe if it were not for his injuries this year he could've have just as good a year as last if not better, during the time when he was our number 1 ruckman last year he was rated as in the top 3-5 ruckman in the comp!

By your criterion, that < 3 Brownlow votes = spud, we should sack all bar Jones and start again.

Your assertion that half our list are spuds is, by your criterion, a gross underestimate.

I cant be bothered going through all the teams but I wonder how many had > half the players getting > 3 votes. Not too many I imagine. Does that make "half their lists are spuds"?

And your maths fails to take into account (again I won't do he math) that the majority of votes go to the winning team, especially in one sided games.

We are so lucky that you are not list manager.

Congratulations, you are twisting my argument and then over analyzing it.

Where would we have been last year without him in the ruck!?!? he held us together in the middle and was one of our best players during the time he was our number 1 ruckman! he also has outstanding agillity and speed for a guy his size! he may not always be the best decision maker or disposal player but these aspects of his game are all improving the longer we have him. i truely believe if it were not for his injuries this year he could've have just as good a year as last if not better, during the time when he was our number 1 ruckman last year he was rated as in the top 3-5 ruckman in the comp!

Last Year! that was Last year. So everytime a player has a good year it means we should not trade them?

Where was he rated top 3-5 ruckman in the comp?

We need currency for mids, whats the point of good ruckmen if they only have opposition mids to tap it to?

You're being selective and even erroneous with your dates and ages.

Martin is 25. He'll be 26 at the end of this year, and will play next season as a 26 year old. If he stays for Jamar's 3 years, he would be 28 for season 2015.

Collingwood (and if rumours are to be believed, other clubs as well) are into him for a reason.

29 (Which is almost 30 like I said) in 2016 which will be the first year after Jamar is gone.

Wellingham > Backup Ruckman

Especially since our midfield is the worst in the competition and our Ruckman have nobody decent (Apology Jones) to tap it to anyway.

You're being selective and even erroneous with your dates and ages.

Martin is 25. He'll be 26 at the end of this year, and will play next season as a 26 year old. If he stays for Jamar's 3 years, he would be 28 for season 2015.

Collingwood (and if rumours are to be believed, other clubs as well) are into him for a reason.

TY bing. Its like Rhino Richards the 2nd!

dont let the truth get in the way of a good arguement..

Whats wrong with people?

Have we been so battered and bruised recently, that we'll turn our displeasure to whoever the topic of the moment is on?

Someone said Martin was 'uncoachable!' WTF? Another wants to trade him AND another mfc player for Josh Caddy!! The same Caddy that struggles to get a dozen touches each week and has NO impact..

Wow. Were beyond desperate.

Maybe we should just trust Neeldy and his team this year, that they will make the right decisions. Im more than confident in Neeld.

Stef Martin is a BEAST. He's our Naitanui.. (but Stef CAN kick) He roves his own ball, is just as athletic, he's faster than most - he's just got to get his body right. Im sure Neeldy sees it too.

The difference? Nik-nat plays in a sucessful team with Dean Cox..

Besides the fact he's about to peak, theres 20 players who imo, MFC would cut before him.. and lets not forget the fact that he started a few years later than most too..

i believe he's earned his chance, with us, next year.

29 (Which is almost 30 like I said) in 2016 which will be the first year after Jamar is gone.

You didn't say "after Jamar is gone". You said:

"Martin will most likely be 2nd string ruckman until his almost 30"

If he plays second string to Jamar, he would be 28 during Jamar's last season (assuming Jamar lasts 3 more years).

It's like hitting yourself over the head with a 2 x 4.

Last Year! that was Last year. So everytime a player has a good year it means we should not trade them?

Where was he rated top 3-5 ruckman in the comp?

We need currency for mids, whats the point of good ruckmen if they only have opposition mids to tap it to?

I can't recall exactly recall which article it was i read it in but it had him along side ruckman such as cox, mumford, natainui etc. you can say all you like that i am making it up about the article just to make my argument a bit stronger but he was higly rated in it and we would really hate to lose him and have him in a year or 2 become another situation like Jolly and dominate teams while we sit back and wonder what could've been! He is a similar type as natainui as he has similar athleticism, speed and agillity and these traits do not come along very often in ruckman and when they do we really need to take the opportunity and not let it slip!

Spencer and gawn are no guarantees to make it at AFL level and with Jamar seemingly beginning to decline in his effectiveness and he is definitely no guarantee to play out his contract, who would we have to pull their weight in the ruck once he is gone?!? Martin deserves his chance to take the number 1 position.

Stef Martin is a BEAST. He's our Naitanui.. (but Stef CAN kick) He roves his own ball, is just as athletic, he's faster than most - he's just got to get his body right. Im sure Neeldy sees it too.

The difference? Nik-nat plays in a sucessful team with Dean Cox..

Besides the fact he's about to peak, theres 20 players who imo, MFC would cut before him.. and lets not forget the fact that he started a few years later than most too..

i believe he's earned his chance, with us, next year.

exactly my thinking

You didn't say "after Jamar is gone". You said:

"Martin will most likely be 2nd string ruckman until his almost 30"

If he plays second string to Jamar, he would be 28 during Jamar's last season (assuming Jamar lasts 3 more years).

It's like hitting yourself over the head with a 2 x 4.

28 is almost 30 and he will still be 2nd string then as Jamar will still be around (And even possibly had Gawn surpass him). You are digging yourself a hole.

On top of that who do you suggests he taps it to since you prefer holding onto rucks when we are in excess amount of them and have no decent mids to even rove the ball (aside from Jones)

Trading Martin for Wellingham is a good trade and we should go for it if we can.

I was watching last year when we lost by 186, were you?

Maybe we should keep every other player who has come in the top 8 of our best and fairest for 1 year in their career.

Oh OK that was Martin's fault was it?

As for your second 'point' I guess that means you agree we should get rid of Sylvia?

I just wished Tippett hurried up and made a decision - or at least leak it to someone. If he stays I think I might start crying.

Oh OK that was Martin's fault was it?

As for your second 'point' I guess that means you agree we should get rid of Sylvia?

As a player of course it was partly his fault.

And why are you even bringing up Sylvia? If we could get a good trade for Sylvia that help rectify a weak spot of our team then yes I would trade him.

Whats wrong with people?

...

Maybe we should just trust Neeldy and his team this year, that they will make the right decisions. Im more than confident in Neeld.

Stef Martin is a BEAST. He's our Naitanui.. (but Stef CAN kick) He roves his own ball, is just as athletic, he's faster than most - he's just got to get his body right. Im sure Neeldy sees it too.

So will you still trust Neeldy if we trade Stef? Or we find out what's wrong with you?

Lots of opinions and speculation on here. I think I'll add mine.

Martin has a lot of value in trade because a lot of people can see his freakish athleticism. He could very well be the poor mans NicNat if given the opportunity and proper coaching. We may even see that happen at Melbourne if he i still there next year. I would not be at all surprised if a number of pretty good clubs are looking at him and speculating. The question is whether we can get enough in trade for him to make it worth letting him go.

29 (Which is almost 30 like I said) in 2016 which will be the first year after Jamar is gone.

Wellingham > Backup Ruckman

Especially since our midfield is the worst in the competition and our Ruckman have nobody decent (Apology Jones) to tap it to anyway.

BINGO

I just wished Tippett hurried up and made a decision - or at least leak it to someone. If he stays I think I might start crying.

I think the waiting game will play long into October, no free agency here just good old trades that don't fall into place until the 11th hour. In addition to this Tippet just bought a house on the GC in the last few months....read into it what you wish

But then again $800k a season from Adelaide might just do the trick

On top of that who do you suggests he taps it to since you prefer holding onto rucks ...

Do I? Where did I say we should hold onto him?

With so many potential players leaving I dont see any real value in getting rid of Stef? He is agile, can mark, can kick goals, can run. Another good pre-season and try to bulk him up and he could play potentially forward in the pocket which would soak up another tall backman taking some of the load off the other forwards. He can also play ruck and back in a pinch, a bit of coaching to help improve his shepherding and tackling would certainly not go astray. He may occassionally run into some wrong spots but when you have a side that goes backward as often as we do what where is the RIGHT spot.

Stef would do very well at another club, because that club is likely to provide far better support for him than melbourne players do for each other which will allow him to mature and play better. We have some decent draft picks, and the potential to pick up some reasonable FA's that will add to the quality of the team.Yes I believe we have some quality players, but we also have some lazy players who turn the ball over far to easily which kills us. If we now just kill of the 'zone' or lazy mans defense and spare man in defence and maybe we would be more competitive.

I would keep Stef and play him forward and concentrate on getting some more depth in the midfield and defence with our picks and FA signings.

Martin plays his best footy as first ruck. He is wasted as second ruck because he is a poor forward. I would like to trade one of Jamar or Martin. Jamar has bought into Neelds gameplan and Neeld has commited to him.

I would have prefered it if Martin had bought in and we traded Jamar but it doesnt look like Martin has got with the program. Therfore I will be happy to trade him.for something of value. You have to give value to get value.

I think the waiting game will play long into October, no free agency here just good old trades that don't fall into place until the 11th hour. In addition to this Tippet just bought a house on the GC in the last few months....read into it what you wish

Everyone is positioning themselves to get a seat at the table. I just not sure if we are playing poker or dominoes. Think we will find out who the shifty bugger is shortly.

With so many potential players leaving I dont see any real value in getting rid of Stef?

What has been offered for him ?