Darren Jolly explains why the Swans have an amazing culture, why the Pies are building one and (my take away) why Colin Sylvia will never make it.

Our leadership at the club has been so poor for many years. 12 CEOs in 10 years, fractured facilities, poor on-field leaders, low demand for excellence and senior players who have one good year to win a Bluey and then effectively stop playing (yes Brad, Aaron and Brent). A lot of it has been said in parts on other threads but this is worth reading as Jolls has seen first hand a crap club (us) and two amazing clubs.

Makes me think that the decision to appoint Trengove and Grimes as Captains in an inspired one albeit we are having big difficulties in year 1 with personal form and on-field performance. Our culture needs overhauling from the ground up and a clean break with the past mediocrity was absolutely necessary.

Interesting take on Stewart Maxwell as Captain and the culture that followed from O'Keefe, Goodes and of course Kirk. Worth reading.

As for Colin Sylvia those that read this and still think Col will make it should re-read article.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/hard-lessons-learnt-as-teams-create-a-culture-20120814-246tq.html

Where does he mention Sylvia, or even allude to him?

Seem to be 3 standard threads that keep reoccurring at the moment.

1. Sylvia Yes or No threads

2. Viney and what pick his worth and

3. Neeld and what he has done right/wrong.

Where does he mention Sylvia, or even allude to him?

It's my take away - see the bracketed comments?

Good thread jnr.

It's another example of how hard it is to break away and develop a strong culture. Jolly paints a clear picture. And like noses out of joint (sand through the hour glass) at Melbourne so too were noses out of joint at Sydney initially. So too were at early days at Geelong.

Like last year, I implore Melbourne supporters to think of the greater picture here.

These are examples of player driven motives. We can't hold back and nurture those who sit in the corner, don't work hard and push themselves or disagree with new training standards and leadership. Or those who take downhill shortcuts.

It's got to come from within, and the direction of the club will keep sifting to find those who 'have it' and those that will not compromise set non negotiables !

Darren Jolly explains why the Swans have an amazing culture, why the Pies are building one and (my take away) why Colin Sylvia will never make it.

Our leadership at the club has been so poor for many years. 12 CEOs in 10 years, fractured facilities, poor on-field leaders, low demand for excellence and senior players who have one good year to win a Bluey and then effectively stop playing (yes Brad, Aaron and Brent). A lot of it has been said in parts on other threads but this is worth reading as Jolls has seen first hand a crap club (us) and two amazing clubs.

Makes me think that the decision to appoint Trengove and Grimes as Captains in an inspired one albeit we are having big difficulties in year 1 with personal form and on-field performance. Our culture needs overhauling from the ground up and a clean break with the past mediocrity was absolutely necessary.

Interesting take on Stewart Maxwell as Captain and the culture that followed from O'Keefe, Goodes and of course Kirk. Worth reading.

As for Colin Sylvia those that read this and still think Col will make it should re-read article.

http://www.theage.co...0814-246tq.html

Nice thread. Explains plenty. Very hard to develop any of our players under a culture like ours. I have 100% faith things are starting to change for some of us at least.

Wow...Collingwood as leaders of 'culture'....Didak and the bikie, Heath Shaw and his various, Swan now.....

It is very easy to sit on high if you have been successful and tut tut about everybody else

That comment about winning the Bluey and stop playing is a complete insult to Brad Green, if we had posters who showed the same amount of courage he does everytime he steps on the field ...it is quite easy to hide behind a nickname and be a keyboard hero

Jnrmac if you think MFC is crap why do you support?

I think a lot of the modern music is crap so I don't listen to it

Aaron Davey has had a shocking run with injuries since and Brent Moloney is trying his guts out, it is just not working at the moment

Culture is and has always been a 'buzz;' word........

Neeld has a vision for the future, whichever players buy in will stay, (if Sylvia buys in, which he seems to be doing, he will stay), those that don't will be gone

The only 'culture' that should exist is to get better and better and win

Edited August 14, 201213 yr by satyricon

Wow...Collingwood as leaders of 'culture'....Didak and the bikie, Heath Shaw and his various, Swan now.....

It is very easy to sit on high if you have been successful and tut tut about everybody else

That comment about winning the Bluey and stop playing is a complete insult to Brad Green, if we had posters who showed the same amount of courage he does everytime he steps on the field ...it is quite easy to hide behind a nickname and be a keyboard hero

Jnrmac if you think MFC is crap why do you support?

I think a lot of the modern music is crap so I don't listen to it

Aaron Davey has had a shocking run with injuries since and Brent Moloney is trying his guts out, it is just not working at the moment

Culture is and has always been a 'buzz;' word........

Neeld has a vision for the future, whichever players buy in will stay, (if Sylvia buys in, which he seems to be doing, he will stay), those that don't will be gone

The only 'culture' that should exist is to get better and better and win

I don't know why you have this reaction - we have a culture of ease, laziness, and low standards.

Hopefully it is being changed with Jones, Trengove, Grimes, Clark, Batram, Garland, and Frawley - 7 very impressive footy players. If these guys can push all and sundry to better efforts we may achieve better feats.

Agree jnr. Insightful article from Jolly, and it points to a path we must take if we are to get out of the current mire. I very much like your point about the two Jacks. It's tough going for them at the moment, but I think (hope!) they have the where-with-all grow into the captaincy role, and establish standards and expectations at our Club, the likes of which we have not seen before. It will be a long journey (and severely test the patience of many), but if we can pull it off, the rewards will be worth it.

"Adapt or die" - Billy Beane

Wow...Collingwood as leaders of 'culture'....Didak and the bikie, Heath Shaw and his various, Swan now.....

It is very easy to sit on high if you have been successful and tut tut about everybody else

That comment about winning the Bluey and stop playing is a complete insult to Brad Green, if we had posters who showed the same amount of courage he does everytime he steps on the field ...it is quite easy to hide behind a nickname and be a keyboard hero

Jnrmac if you think MFC is crap why do you support?

I think a lot of the modern music is crap so I don't listen to it

Aaron Davey has had a shocking run with injuries since and Brent Moloney is trying his guts out, it is just not working at the moment

Culture is and has always been a 'buzz;' word........

Neeld has a vision for the future, whichever players buy in will stay, (if Sylvia buys in, which he seems to be doing, he will stay), those that don't will be gone

The only 'culture' that should exist is to get better and better and win

I too am surprised (sort of) by your reaction. The Pies have issues and how the have dealt with them is instructive. Every club has them.

Culture is not a buzz word. It is the fabric of an organisation, club etc. It is fact that Green, Davey, Bruce and Moloney had shockers after their Bluey win. It is fact that our club leaders have been next to useless for a long time. About the only guy on-field who had the capacity to stand up when we were being belted was Junior and we got rid of him. I never said Green didn't have courage but it is true he was seen as a FIGJAM in his early years at the club and he was never really embraced as a leader. tyr as he might he didn't get there. Do you disagree?

I can only assume you have never been a leader in your chosen field or never experienced first hand quality leadership. 12 CEO's in 10 years demonstrates we have been less than harmonious off field. And on-field who have we had since Neitz that could truly be seen as a leader? Brent Moloney has tried to be a leader (with his Warnambool camps and on field ra ra) but IMO he doesn't have it.

It seems clear that Grimes from everything I have heard is a true leader. Time will tell. I surely hope so.

As the article says, sometimes its hard to hear thing you don't want to hear, Sat Con. If you believe we have real leadership at the Club over the past 6 years then I can convince you otherwise. Nor should I try. I think it is bleedingly obvious.

Again, hindsight is 20/20. I can guarantee you that Jolly wouldn't have written this article had they been beaten on Saturday without Swan playing.

It's easy to talk up your culture and look the hero when you have a flag, unless of course your the WCE's of only 6 years ago. Worst culture of the passed 30 years and premierships to show for it. Just goes to show that good players that play hard is really what's at the core of a winning culture.

I'm sick of Jolly taking cheap shots at Melbourne. I'm sorry we drafted him and gave him a lot more opportunity then he warranted as a kid. Can he please get over it already?

Jnrmac, sorry mate, missed the brackets and was genuinely wondering if I was missing something in the article. I'm not sure that this really proves much about Col Syliva though. Based on the same theory Swan won't make it and neither will the Shaws. Not all players can be leaders, some just need to put their head down and get on with it and I'll come to Col's defence here and say that I think he's working on that side of his life.

Edited August 15, 201213 yr by The heart beats true

Seem to be 3 standard threads that keep reoccurring at the moment.

1. Sylvia Yes or No threads

2. Viney and what pick his worth and

3. Neeld and what he has done right/wrong.

4. Throw in obligatory Moneyball reference.

So Jnrmac,

Totally agree in extending this to the MFC in it's current state. A chance to create a club culture from scratch, with 'untainted' players driving this change?

As you mentioned, two very young leaders in Grimes and Trengove, Clark in his first year from another club, and only Jones being retained from the old leadership group, it's a very big statement, and was viewed as harsh, and perhaps it was, but maybe it was also very necessary as well.

With Trengove, Grimes, Clark, Jones etc... we have a group of players that must attempt to adjust the culture at the MFC to where it needs to be. In regards to Col, I kinda agree with the sentiments of THBT in that not every player has to 'drive' the culture of the club, but they have to be accountable. Dane Swan is a good example. Fantastic player, and probably a great guy to have around the club, but he will always need to be kept in check. What he does bring to the club is personality, which I think is something that gets suppressed all to often these days. Sylvia is probably the closest player to our list to Swan (except in the fact that he hasn't reached his potential)

(This last bit is for RPFC) Footy skills and height aside, I have heard, and believe Jack Viney is rated one of the drafts best prospects in terms of leadership, and you would expect him to both thrive in a good footy culture, but equally would be one of the players that could serve to reinforce culture as required too. Grimes was seen in a similar fashion when we drafted him....

Edited August 15, 201213 yr by Oucher

Again, hindsight is 20/20. I can guarantee you that Jolly wouldn't have written this article had they been beaten on Saturday without Swan playing.

It's easy to talk up your culture and look the hero when you have a flag, unless of course your the WCE's of only 6 years ago. Worst culture of the passed 30 years and premierships to show for it. Just goes to show that good players that play hard is really what's at the core of a winning culture.

I'm sick of Jolly taking cheap shots at Melbourne. I'm sorry we drafted him and gave him a lot more opportunity then he warranted as a kid. Can he please get over it already?

Jnrmac, sorry mate, missed the brackets and was genuinely wondering if I was missing something in the article. I'm not sure that this really proves much about Col Syliva though. Based on the same theory Swan won't make it and neither will the Shaws. Not all players can be leaders, some just need to put their head down and get on with it and I'll come to Col's defence here and say that I think he's working on that side of his life.

No worries.

Re Jolly - aside from is pot shot at tanking I fully understand why he left and is probably peed off. Daniher was giving him 6-8mins a game!! It was appalling. His love for Jeff White was crazy in terms of development for other players.

To his credit he has 2 flags and has been at two strong clubs so I would say he pretty well qualified to talk about it.

I get why people want to persist with Col but I am over him and have a strong view that he should be weeded out after 8 (!) years. Otherwise the culture will never have a chance to change. Its a bit like a CEo coming in and clearing out management of a company. Good people sometimes go but if change is to happen often a clean sweep is needed first. Thats why I like the grimes/trengove captaincy.

Again, hindsight is 20/20. I can guarantee you that Jolly wouldn't have written this article had they been beaten on Saturday without Swan playing.

It's easy to talk up your culture and look the hero when you have a flag, unless of course your the WCE's of only 6 years ago. Worst culture of the passed 30 years and premierships to show for it. Just goes to show that good players that play hard is really what's at the core of a winning culture.

I'm sick of Jolly taking cheap shots at Melbourne. I'm sorry we drafted him and gave him a lot more opportunity then he warranted as a kid. Can he please get over it already?

Jnrmac, sorry mate, missed the brackets and was genuinely wondering if I was missing something in the article. I'm not sure that this really proves much about Col Syliva though. Based on the same theory Swan won't make it and neither will the Shaws. Not all players can be leaders, some just need to put their head down and get on with it and I'll come to Col's defence here and say that I think he's working on that side of his life.

Thank you, you probably put it better than I did.

Most people wouldn't know a good leader if they fell over them, leaders lead by example, not words, buzz or otherwise

And yes I have seen one good leader in the many years I have been living/working and he led from the front

This is footy, a leader puts their head over the ball, and the culture is to win, that is all, I don't care if the team looks like a bunch of homeless people who can't put two words together as long as they have a crack.

The thing that annoys me here, is the last finals played by MFC was six years ago, yes since then things have been off, but it is not 66 years or 106 years, and for the last five we have had some really good people building the Club again from the ground up

We will get there and have a 'culture' of winning, I looked at the article this morning, saw who it was and didn't even bother reading it.

I'll point to a part of our culture that has irked me - I believe our player over an extended period have never been challenged to be excellent. We have had numerous players that have taken the big upward curve only to plateau or worse, go backwards.

Neil Craig said at the beginning of the year that there will be players at the MFC who will not be able, or not wont to stay at the club because of the expectations set and that was fine with Craig. Its fine with me too.

I've been banging on about leadership groups setting the culture of AFL clubs (good, bad, or average) for ages.

I posted the following on the draft and trading board on 4 August:

Culture isn't defined by one event, it's defined by the collective leadership group of a club.

Geelong still has great culture even though Ablett left. Geelong still has great culture even though Costa is no longer President. Geelong still has great culture even though Bomber Thompson is no longer coach. Geelong still has great culture even though premiership captain Tom Harley retired. Geelong still has great culture even though premiership captain Cameron Ling retired. Do you know why ? They still have a fantastic leadership group driving and enforcing their culture. They're instructing younger players what is expected, so they in turn can one day lead the way.

The day it dawns on supporters that a club's culture stems from their leadership group is the day they'll start understanding the game. Our leadership group is the youngest of 18 teams. Our culture will come if Trengove, Jones, Grimes and hopefully Viney become leaders that ensure a quality culture and become the players to match. But clearly it will take time.

So yes Jnrmac, I agree, but there are still plenty of supporters that won't, or can't accept that a club's culture is determined by its leadership group. Jolly is right on the money and anyone that has ever had anything to do with AFL players, or clubs, knows it. Ours is a work in progress and requires a full buy in, but I believe we've got the core group required to drive our future. Jack Viney has leadership in bucket loads and will only complement this group. Sylvia and Moloney are a handbrake on this football club and its culture.

(This last bit is for RPFC) Footy skills and height aside, I have heard, and believe Jack Viney is rated one of the drafts best prospects in terms of leadership, and you would expect him to both thrive in a good footy culture, but equally would be one of the players that could serve to reinforce culture as required too. Grimes was seen in a similar fashion when we drafted him....

One of the reasons I am so looking forward to his arrival.

I expect him to make others around him better, I fully expect him to demand it. We have young leaders and we are about to get another one.

One of the reasons I am so looking forward to his arrival.

I expect him to make others around him better, I fully expect him to demand it. We have young leaders and we are about to get another one.

.... you reckon his leadership ability would make up for the 5cm he is apparently lacking then?

One of the reasons I am so looking forward to his arrival.

I expect him to make others around him better, I fully expect him to demand it. We have young leaders and we are about to get another one.

While it's fair to say that the Leadership Group create the culture (as per BH's post), the players outside the LG need to respect those in the positions above. Expecting Jack to come in and gain respect from day 1 aint gunna happen. It might only take him a season, but for 2013, Jack will be just another 1st year draftee trying to crack in to the senior side. If he can do that from round 1 and consolidate, then show on the training track that he never puts in less than 100%, then his status will rise, the level of respect from his peers will rise, and he will be a leader creating this "culture" that we need.

At the moment, and it is only early days, Grimes and Trengove are a long way from creating a culture that the likes of Geelong and Sydney have. It's hard for them to sit in front of the group and demand elite level disposal efficiency when one is continually turning it over, and the other can't kick a goal from 30m out.

I'm sorry, but if these are the blokes that I am looking up to when we are trying to develop a culture, I'm finding it hard to buy-in based on what I see during a game. I just hope it's the stuff that I don't see (ie at training and general offield antics) that they are working on in Year 1 of the new Culture Club ©.

.... you reckon his leadership ability would make up for the 5cm he is apparently lacking then?

Others would stand taller to compensate...

It might only take him a season, but for 2013, Jack will be just another 1st year draftee trying to crack in to the senior side. If he can do that from round 1 and consolidate, then show on the training track that he never puts in less than 100%, then his status will rise, the level of respect from his peers will rise, and he will be a leader creating this "culture" that we need.

At the moment, and it is only early days, Grimes and Trengove are a long way from creating a culture that the likes of Geelong and Sydney have. It's hard for them to sit in front of the group and demand elite level disposal efficiency when one is continually turning it over, and the other can't kick a goal from 30m out.

I'm sorry, but if these are the blokes that I am looking up to when we are trying to develop a culture, I'm finding it hard to buy-in based on what I see during a game. I just hope it's the stuff that I don't see (ie at training and general offield antics) that they are working on in Year 1 of the new Culture Club ©.

So Billy, do you think Grimes and Trengove are closer to creating a culture ... or maybe a positive culture than our previous leadership group? after seeing whats on offer for 2012? . I guess also to that extent, could our previous leadership group have turned around the culture of the club to make it remotely like the famed 'Bloods' Sydney player culture?

So Billy, do you think Grimes and Trengove are closer to creating a culture ... or maybe a positive culture than our previous leadership group? after seeing whats on offer for 2012? . I guess also to that extent, could our previous leadership group have turned around the culture of the club to make it remotely like the famed 'Bloods' Sydney player culture?

Bloody tough to answer from an outsiders point of view Oucher, especially considering I haven't been to a game this year.

In my view, and forgive me as I could be well off the mark, while we still have Sylvia, Moloney and Rivers running around, it's going to be bloody hard for Trengove and Grimes to turn this ship around. I pick those players because I would expect that any new player would be drawn to them initially, due to the fact that they are probably more recognised as our leading players (not to get confused with our leaders). I would imagine that those 3 personalities would be quite difficult for JT/JG to change, mainly because of pride, and further to that, the respect that our joint captains have earned.

The fact that Jones is a leader has probably ensured that Moloney and Sylvia espe especially, have adapted to some degree, as I do believe they are fairly good friends.

To be honest, I wouldn't expect to see significant changes to our culture, changes that are visible to the general public (which is what 99% of us are on here), for at least 3 years with this current Leadership Group. Jones and Clark took the right steps this year by displaying a minimum standard onfield. I don't believe Trengove and Grimes have done that, which concerns me, but I'm willing to wipe out this year (another blood year!!!!), but will will expect different next year.

I look at Carlton, the inclusion of Judd, and what their general culture is like. Again, I am only doing this from vision on TV. Judd obviously came from Wet Coke, where that was a bizarre culture to say the least, but somehow managed to snag them a flag. Carlton, with top picks coming through, needed a senior player, which turend out to be one of the best of all time, to lead that team. He's obviously a gun, Judd, but has he been able to create a culture like Geelong and Sydney? He tried, but I don't think that's his strong point. He has shown leadership, but how it looks (again, just my view) is that for Judd, he can turn up and he's one of the greatest, the harder he tries, generally the more damaging he is. Murphy is on board, knows that he has to work bloody hard to get to Judd's "average" level. It's the blokes like Robinson, Betts, Scotland, Gibbs, Simpson, when they are up and about, they are one of the best in the league, but it's when they are not, that's when you can see their culture issues.

This is my view, no facts, figures or otherwise.

Nah thats a pretty fair assessment,

I agree it's hard to assess Trengove and Grimes, especially in this first year. Both players are around the 50 game mark, whilst neither has set the world on fire on the field, they haven't been terrible either. Just looking at basic stats will tell you that they are both high up on possessions etc. Not great, but not as terrible as a lot of people make it out to be either.

Off the field is the bit that none of us would have a clue about. But given what has been thrown at our club all year, they have done a decent job... and it will take several years before we see results.