Just now, Sir Why You Little said:

Toumpas has NEVER had an attitude for the contest at AFL Level & that is where it counts...

 

But he wasn't drafted from the AFL  - he was drafted from the TAC and there was no knock on his appetite for the contest at the underage level and that is the point you continually miss.

Stating the obvious  - players can only be rated at the time of the drafting on their resume to date. 

I have spent the last 10 minutes having a bit of a flick and have a look at this comment from Emma Quayle who is well respected junior talent watcher on Steele Sidebottom and Chris Yarran - ( you got this one well and truly wrong Emma!)  Where Sidebottom ends up will be one of the more interesting aspects of this draft. I am a big Yarran fan and think on pure class and brilliance he's a level above Steele and the others you mentioned. 

Just now, nutbean said:

But he wasn't drafted from the AFL  - he was drafted from the TAC and there was no knock on his appetite for the contest at the underage level and that is the point you continually miss.

Stating the obvious  - players can only be rated at the time of the drafting on their resume to date. 

I have spent the last 10 minutes having a bit of a flick and have a look at this comment from Emma Quayle who is well respected junior talent watcher on Steele Sidebottom and Chris Yarran - ( you got this one well and truly wrong Emma!)  Where Sidebottom ends up will be one of the more interesting aspects of this draft. I am a big Yarran fan and think on pure class and brilliance he's a level above Steele and the others you mentioned. 

i agree nut. and not only was he drafted from tac but also playing senior sanfl (quite successfully) with the big boys at a young age.

another aspect is being drafted interstate. this can have a dramatic effect on some young guys. it's not just the family things, but virtually everything, your friends, your environment, your family, lifestyle etc. it can be quite daunting for some and i suspect jimmy felt he was a fish out of water somewhat and it knocked his self confidence. this is something that is very hard to evaluate at drafting time. leaving school and starting a new life is problematic enough (for some) without being catapulted into a totally new environment interstate.

19 hours ago, Mono said:

Not wanting to start the Toumpas debate again, but saw this in the HUN today, in an article about Aish.

It was a clear weakness, and one that MFC didn't attempt to rectify. Port have put A LOT of work into Toumpas contested ball efforts, and overall inside game. It is starting to pay off, he is making slight improvements. I think eventually the penny will drop. In hindsight it is easy to say MFC drafted the wrong player, but I think we also have to acknowledge that we didn't handle Toumpas as well as we could have. He had weaknesses, and MFC didn't attempt to rectify them, and if they did, clearly failed in doing so. I hope Toumpas makes it, and I see big improvements this year, I like the kid. Good luck Jimmy.

Here is some of Emma's work 

2010 draft - .http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-future-is-in-their-hands-20101117-17xqp.html

 

Here is some of Kevin Sheehan's work from 2012 - http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/department-of-trade/afl-talent-manager-kevin-sheehan-brings-you-the-top-30-draft-prospects-from-around-australia/story-fna8vsun-1226516091894

 

I am not putting the knock on these watchers of talent - I am saying they have a limited amount of information to then formulate opinions.

There is a certain amount of crystal balling involved and a lot is right and lot is equally wrong. 

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It was a wasted 3 years and proved Neeld was clueless...

Looking back through this thread, about 95% here were "clueless".

Peope make mistakes. You recognise it, learn from it, and move on.

40 minutes ago, nutbean said:

But he wasn't drafted from the AFL  - he was drafted from the TAC and there was no knock on his appetite for the contest at the underage level and that is the point you continually miss.

Stating the obvious  - players can only be rated at the time of the drafting on their resume to date. 

I have spent the last 10 minutes having a bit of a flick and have a look at this comment from Emma Quayle who is well respected junior talent watcher on Steele Sidebottom and Chris Yarran - ( you got this one well and truly wrong Emma!)  Where Sidebottom ends up will be one of the more interesting aspects of this draft. I am a big Yarran fan and think on pure class and brilliance he's a level above Steele and the others you mentioned. 

I still say and will always believe that a players attitude can be nailed at a young age, if the right questions and expectations are asked. 

Toumpas didn't have it. 

27 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I still say and will always believe that a players attitude can be nailed at a young age, if the right questions and expectations are asked. 

Toumpas didn't have it. 

And I will say that an under 18 footballer playing senior level football in South Australia against men and captaining his state at TAC level tells me you are wrong and probably doesn't lack in attitude.

A little history  - remember this post ?

"Can't believe people can still defend the Darling/Cook decision. Our number 12 pick is still struggling in the Casey 2's. The alternative is about to play in his second final series as a major player.

The MFC really blew this one, and i hope people never forget it."

Now tell me exactly how you think he would have gone on interview after an underage nightclub incident and being expelled from his school - what questions would you ask about his "attitude" back in his drafting days ?

(counter that with the Dayle Gartlett who was also a bad boy who apparently made all the right noises to Hawthorn about his attitude - you don't think that Hawthorn asked him the right questions ?)

It seems to me that we should have seen right through a player who had a good atttitude and also seen right through a player who had a questionable attitude - I think we need a mind reader combined with a fortune teller on our payroll. 

You can make all the noises you like about attitude  - I would suggest that Toumpas's attitude would have been A plus - but you have to be able to translate that attitude onto the field - he did that at under age level and has failed miserably at AFL level.

nutbean, you are completely and utterly wasting your time.

12 minutes ago, Nasher said:

nutbean, you are completely and utterly wasting your time.

sigh...

correct...

But to quote Al Pacino in the Godfather 111 - "just when I thought I was out of the Jimmy Toumpas debate , they pull me back in"

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

nutbean, you are completely and utterly wasting your time.

He's right though.

But yes, the horse is being flogged.

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

And I will say that an under 18 footballer playing senior level football in South Australia against men and captaining his state at TAC level tells me you are wrong and probably doesn't lack in attitude.

A little history  - remember this post ?

"Can't believe people can still defend the Darling/Cook decision. Our number 12 pick is still struggling in the Casey 2's. The alternative is about to play in his second final series as a major player.

The MFC really blew this one, and i hope people never forget it."

Now tell me exactly how you think he would have gone on interview after an underage nightclub incident and being expelled from his school - what questions would you ask about his "attitude" back in his drafting days ?

(counter that with the Dayle Gartlett who was also a bad boy who apparently made all the right noises to Hawthorn about his attitude - you don't think that Hawthorn asked him the right questions ?)

It seems to me that we should have seen right through a player who had a good atttitude and also seen right through a player who had a questionable attitude - I think we need a mind reader combined with a fortune teller on our payroll. 

You can make all the noises you like about attitude  - I would suggest that Toumpas's attitude would have been A plus - but you have to be able to translate that attitude onto the field - he did that at under age level and has failed miserably at AFL level.

That is exactly what i am saying. He has no attitude at AFL LEVEL. 

Had none in his first game and still doesn't. You bring up Dayle Garlett..When did i ever say he had the right attitude?

That whole Darling incident was blown right out of proportion by the WA Media. I would have Darling in a heart beat compaired to that soft pillow Toumpas. I won't mention Ollie Wines....

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

That is exactly what i am saying. He has no attitude at AFL LEVEL. 

Had none in his first game and still doesn't. You bring up Dayle Garlett..When did i ever say he had the right attitude?

That whole Darling incident was blown right out of proportion by the WA Media. I would have Darling in a heart beat compaired to that soft pillow Toumpas. I won't mention Ollie Wines....

Don't mention "The War" I did once but I think I got away with it.

Very easy to be wise after the fact 

There will always be an element if the unknown in recruiting but I love the contested ball stats ,which is what the Roos regime has based their midfield recruiting strategy on and it's bearing dividends 

I was merely responding to those shocking stats put up this morning. 

I cannot believe all the Sympathy directed towards Toumpas by MFC Members to this day. 

His efforts in his first game were useless and nothing has changed. There is only one person responsible for that...Jimmy Toumpas

take last saturday. There is no way  Toumpas would get anywhere near playing at that level and speed, and that is EXACTLY why he was recruited. It is beyond insanity what Neeld did (If in fact he over ruled the recruiters)

Hopefully a book of the "Hell Decade" will be written as a teaching aid of how not to run an elite football club!!

6 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Very easy to be wise after the fact 

There will always be an element if the unknown in recruiting but I love the contested ball stats ,which is what the Roos regime has based their midfield recruiting strategy on and it's bearing dividends 

Contested ball stats should be only decent barometer for any midfielder. That is their job

it was never Rocket Science. 

I saw Toumpas' first game and called him a fail. He was never going to make it. It is not after the fact. Ollie Wines was close to BOG that day...

posters weren't talking about sympathy

they were talking about the situation and evaluation surrounding the time when toumpas was drafted

5 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

posters weren't talking about sympathy

they were talking about the situation and evaluation surrounding the time when toumpas was drafted

Which was completely wrong. 

Thankfully he has been terminated. 

45 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

That is exactly what i am saying. He has no attitude at AFL LEVEL. 

Had none in his first game and still doesn't. You bring up Dayle Garlett..When did i ever say he had the right attitude?

That whole Darling incident was blown right out of proportion by the WA Media. I would have Darling in a heart beat compaired to that soft pillow Toumpas. I won't mention Ollie Wines....

Alright - my last attempt then i will retire gracefully (sorry Nasher - I can't help myself and RPFC  - the dead horse needs one more flogging )

You keep mixing up what we know now with what information was known at draft time.

In retrospect was Toumpas a horrible mistake  ? You won't get an argument from anyone. Was he mistake at draft  time with all that was known ? Did he have a poor attitude or a non AFL level attitude at draft time ? Probably not.

I never said you said that Gartlett had the right attitude to make it at AFL but he obviously convinced Hawthorn ( who are no slouch's) that he did have the right attitude or he wouldn't have been drafted and look how that turned out. Yet you blithely suggest that Toumpas never had the right attitude and if we asked the right questions we would have known that. Staggering.

And irrespective of your thoughts on Darling's incidents being overblown -  he was highly touted and slipped past many clubs because of his PERCEIVED attitude. Would I have him now ? In a heartbeat. But following your logic  - many clubs must have not asked him the right questions as he slipped purely based on his attitude.

So for the last time ( I promise Nasher/RPFC i will not respond again) - were Toumpas and Morton a mistake at the time  - probably not - they were drafted where their talent dictated they should be drafted (history now tells us otherwise) . Was Cook a mistake ? He was not a mistake because we should have taken Darling. Cook and Strauss were mistakes because there were other footballers better credentialed available at that pick

17 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Contested ball stats should be only decent barometer for any midfielder. That is their job

it was never Rocket Science. 

I saw Toumpas' first game and called him a fail. He was never going to make it. It is not after the fact. Ollie Wines was close to BOG that day...

Given he was drafted to be a wingman and uncontested ball getter I don't think it's all that relevant. 

My issue with Toumpas is his decision making in traffic and lack of athletic stand out quality - be it pace or endurance. He might build the endurance over time and is above average in that regard but seems a long way from elite.

Scully and Whitfield are lighting it up at GWS. Hill and Isaac Smith have been vital players to Hawthorn's premierships. I don't have an issue drafting an outside player with a top pick, as long as the realisation is they might not impact much in a struggling side, but it needs to be one with elite skills/athleticism. 

Stephen Hill has been very good for Freo, he was pick 4. Jared Polec was pick 5 and when he's been fit and healthy at Port he's been fantastic and Jono Brown calls him the best kick to a lead that he's played with.

I think in some shape or form the Toump will still make it and will play a decent amount of AFL footy as he gets fitter, stronger and tougher, but he lacks the weapons to be a top line player.

I think with SWYL it's less about rocket science and more about schadenfreude.

On 11/22/2012 at 10:15 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

Now Mark Neeld has some tough cattle.

Lets go...

2012 ^ this thread.

4 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Toumpas should never have been a top 10 pick, and those who rated him that way were either blind or on serious narcotics 

Now ^

 

And you rated him tough...

Very easy to change your thinking in hindsight SWYL. Once too often I'd suggest.

don't post nutbean

don't post nutbean

don't post nutbean

Just now, nutbean said:

don't post nutbean

don't post nutbean

don't post nutbean

Quoting so you'll get a notification and force you to come back to this thread.

 

On 11/21/2012 at 2:00 PM, nutbean said:

I will be pleased with either Wines or Toumpas as the real experts (aka - demonlanders) are split down the middle on who we should take but are basically only offering up those two - at least we shouldnt see a "WTF??" like we did with Cook/Gysbert

Someone suggested that we shouldn't post our old posts just to give ourselves a pat on the back - I am reposting this to give myself a swift kick in the nads.

8 minutes ago, H_T said:

2012 ^ this thread.

Now ^

 

And you rated him tough...

Very easy to change your thinking in hindsight SWYL. Once too often I'd suggest.

I never rated him. I didn't know anything about him. I backed the club that they had made a good decision with a number 4 pick that was going to be better than Ollie Wines, who i had some knowledge of. 

But as i said from Round 1 against Port Adelaide it was a fail and nothing has changed. 

Toumpas was given multiple opportunities to prove himself and failed.