This could be the nail in Bailey's coffin

[fired up 77]

I hope for nothing else but a huge win over Brisbane, but I reckon a loss will after a p#$% weak effort last week will be the deciding factor in Bailey not being resigned after this year. He will see out the rest of the season though.

[Eth 4]

I hope for nothing else but a huge win over Brisbane, but I reckon a loss will after a p#$% weak effort last week will be the deciding factor in Bailey not being resigned after this year. He will see out the rest of the season though.

I would say 'wait, we might lose?', but then I remembered I was on Demonland...

[Nasher 33,607]

I would say 'wait, we might lose?', but then I remembered I was on Demonland...

I laughed. So, so true.

No, this game will not be the nail in Bailey's or anyone else's coffin. In isolation it will mean the same thing as every other game does in isolation - not much. Thankfully our club administration look further ahead than week and further behind than one week.

Also, as alluded to be e25 in the other thread, I don't see why it's a foregone conclusion that we should smash them. They might be one of the worst sides in the league, but we haven't improved so much that we can expect to smash the bottom dwellers yet, we've only just exited that level ourselves.

[Rogue 585]

No, this game will not be the nail in Bailey's or anyone else's coffin. In isolation it will mean the same thing as every other game does in isolation - not much.

Absolutely.

Let's say we lose the game versus the Lions; let's even assume we have a big loss.

We then go on to make finals and snag a finals victory, but DB is still going to lose his job because of a round three result?

That DB will see out the season, but that his cards will be stamped if we lose this game, is such a ridiculous assertion.

[ICU2 Jerry Jerry 257]

I hope for nothing else but a huge win over Brisbane, but I reckon a loss will after a p#$% weak effort last week will be the deciding factor in Bailey not being resigned after this year. He will see out the rest of the season though.

No doubt that there is immense pressure on him over the next 4 weeks. Expected to win well the next 2 and then refresh and win in Perth. I think the footy world will be watching this week and next to see a precise well executed gameplan. There should be less pressure on the ball carrier than in the last 2 weeks so we all wait to see exactly what our ball movement and running lines are supposed to be and whether it is a capable, match-winning formula I suppose.

Seems like last year when we played some great Footy that it was the weight of talent in the young guys that when "on" as a group had us more than competitive. I'm yet to see a definitive consistent game-plan yet (especially from a kick out) and I think we should start to see that this year. Big couple of weeks for us in the scheme of things to be quite honest.

Watching Carlton V GCS the other night when there was no pressure on the ball carrier it was quite clear the pattern that they moved the Footy in (like a training drill really) and the way the set up a defence from half forward. We seem to set up our defensive press too far back (between centre and half back)

Yes it's harder against consistent pressure but I think next couple of weeks we ought to really show that our actual structure and movement is on the right path (like the Blues did). At least then we will have a definitive belief that when executed properly the game-plan is sound.

just my 2 cents

[e25 5]

Yeah, where does this attitude come from??!?

What makes anyone think we are any better than the Lions?

We have more highly rated youngsters, but they are just as underdeveloped.

If anything, their senior leaders are of a much higher quality and know what it takes to win.

I hope we win, but sometimes people get caught up in the fervor of "not accepting mediocrity" and instead ignore the reality of being a club firmly placed in a development period.

We are still rebuilding and getting games into kids, whether some supporters are sick of waiting or not.

Firing Bailey would solve nothing and the fortunately the club is smart enough to realise that.

Why on earth would you get rid of the best development coach going round when we are trying to do just that..??

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Seems like last year when we played some great Footy that it was the weight of talent in the young guys that when "on" as a group had us more than competitive.

Brad Green and Mark Jamar say Hi.

I seem to recall your seminal thread about Bailey losing the players. There was certainly heaps of evidence last year as to Bailey was trying to do.

Its a younger list this year. We have had 3 of our keys out in the midfield mix in Scully, Jordie and Morton. We have draw with a definite final contender at the MCG and got belted by a top 4 side with a 1000 games more experience and 4 times the number of hard bodies in the centre.

The acid test is on for all players and FD. Some of the claims on here are amazing to the say the least.

[fired up 77]

Absolutely.

Let's say we lose the game versus the Lions; let's even assume we have a big loss.

We then go on to make finals and snag a finals victory, but DB is still going to lose his job because of a round three result?

That DB will see out the season, but that his cards will be stamped if we lose this game, is such a ridiculous assertion.

Over the years Melbourne Has lost unloseable matches countless times even when on winning streaks and then play a inferior team and lose. A lot of people are saying this could be a danger game, thats a load of crap if we dont win this on our home ground and no Brown we have not improved one iota.

[John Crow Batty 8,862]

I don't take any of this development bull. Pathetic excuses from the apologists. Where has the skills development been? Still worst in the league. A defence that was rated as highly promising 18 months ago now close to a rabble. A game plan thats always one step behind to what everyone else is already doing. Highly rated draft picks stuck in limbo. Listlessness and lethargy from the playing group. Things better improve quick or Dean will be out before round 11. The only thing I think he would be good at developing now is sunburn from the spotlights shining on his melon. Interesting to note Alistair Clarkson is stalling on his contract extension for next season at Hawthorn.

Edited April 9, 2011 by america de cali

[fired up 77]

Yeah, where does this attitude come from??!?

What makes anyone think we are any better than the Lions?

We have more highly rated youngsters, but they are just as underdeveloped.

If anything, their senior leaders are of a much higher quality and know what it takes to win.

I hope we win, but sometimes people get caught up in the fervor of "not accepting mediocrity" and instead ignore the reality of being a club firmly placed in a development period.

We are still rebuilding and getting games into kids, whether some supporters are sick of waiting or not.

Firing Bailey would solve nothing and the fortunately the club is smart enough to realise that.

Why on earth would you get rid of the best development coach going round when we are trying to do just that..??

I'm not saying fire Bailey I'm saying i dont think he will be resigned at years end. Go back and read. Also we need some one who can coach on match day. How long you want to develope for???

[ICU2 Jerry Jerry 257]

Brad Green and Mark Jamar say Hi.

I seem to recall your seminal thread about Bailey losing the players. There was certainly heaps of evidence last year as to Bailey was trying to do.

Its a younger list this year. We have had 3 of our keys out in the midfield mix in Scully, Jordie and Morton. We have draw with a definite final contender at the MCG and got belted by a top 4 side with a 1000 games more experience and 4 times the number of hard bodies in the centre.

The acid test is on for all players and FD. Some of the claims on here are amazing to the say the least.

Look I hear you mate.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that we should feel confident about really executing "our" game-plan the next couple of weeks and we should rightly believe that if we execute "our" plan properly than it will be good enough to win and win well.

I would just like to see this year that along with the individual player development (which is the modus operandi) that we start developing some week to week tactical development also. To use the copycat example it is well known that Mick Malthouse believes that this is just as crucial a part of a players development as any other. The ability to adapt week to week and to play a specific role and or style of game to combat the opposition. I can't recall seeing that yet from our group under Bailey. Yes I do concede that the players may not quite be ready to consistently produce that kind effort week in week out but I do believe that we should back our game in when we are confident it is good enough (the hunted philosophy) and do some serious tactical homework and and innovate/combat our opponent when head to head we might be up against it (the hunter philosophy)

When you get to the top four stage 99% of the time you play the same way knowing that if you execute properly it will inevitably be good enough however when your not one of the top sides yet you have to innovate and devise methods to combat.

What was disappointing about last week was that we tried nothing new from the previous thumpings dished out to us by the Hawks. Yes they are bigger bodied etc but Hawthorn are the prime example of how important tactics and innovation are in Footy. Make no mistake about it the 2008 premiership was won by an innovative game-plan, A game-plan now adopted by most and one which caught the competition on the hop. I was disappointed last week to see the same pattern unfolding again and our inability to counter what is now a 3 year old rolling zone from a kick out. The even more staggering thing is that the rolling zone from a kick out has smashed us for 3 years (and you would assume would be a talking point amongst the group about how hard it is to combat) yet I see no evidence of us employing the same tactic at a kick out?

I've said before that you have to be able to tactically match the best (regardless of the actual list talent) so that when you do in fact innovate you leap ahead.

Hope that made sense.

Yes last year I jumped the gun in a heat of passion and called for Bailey to be put on notice but although I see the importance he has had to the club I still believe (without calling for his head) that it's time to see some match day tactical coaching from our Coach.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Clay Sampson

[Seinfeld 40]

I'm pretty sure he will sign for another two years...Job not done yet and the club insiders know it...

[hardtack 10,517]

In light of what is currently unfolding at the MCG, I think that last week's effort may be viewed retrospectively in a slightly different light; Hawthorn are starting to look scarily good.

[bing181 9,196]

No, this game will not be the nail in Bailey's or anyone else's coffin. In isolation it will mean the same thing as every other game does in isolation - not much. Thankfully our club administration look further ahead than week and further behind than one week.

Ah, a voice in the wilderness. Excellent post ... and hit the nail on the head. Thanks.

Bailey doesn't even have a coffin, yet alone any nails in it, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves.

[e25 5]

I'm not saying fire Bailey I'm saying i dont think he will be resigned at years end. Go back and read. Also we need some one who can coach on match day. How long you want to develope for???

Go back and read? If you do just that, you'll see that I didn't say that you said that.

But it would be essentially the same thing.

Unless Malthouse is available and wants to come to MFC, and it's a long shot, Bailey should be retained.

What makes you say he can't coach on match day?

Either we have kids in the side developing, or we don't.

They make mistakes, sometimes lots of mistakes.

I want to develop for as long as it takes.

You don't seem to realise that it takes longer than you'd like to wait for, but not amount of whining or coaching changes will alter that.

[Sir Why You Little 36,987]

I'm not saying fire Bailey I'm saying i dont think he will be resigned at years end. Go back and read. Also we need some one who can coach on match day. How long you want to develope for???

Should Hardwick be sacked as well after tonight's game??I don't think you really understand what developing a team of kids is all about, and the MFC actually went deeper with the youth policy than the Tigers.

I will repeat it again for you. Last week Hawthorn were able to rotate 8 mature bodies through the midfield. The MFC 2, the rest were kids.

Take the positive out of the 2nd Quarter, i don't see Richmond blowing the Dawks away at all tonight.

The MFC at least got 20 minutes. It is a start of a long journey, and i hope the coach stays-Can you imagine how tough his job has been since 2008??

We have a lot of pain to go through yet. The club knows it. The media are waiting to pull us apart (circling now) but i reckon the club will hang tough...we have to teach these kids by playing them.

How else do they learn??? Your Thoughts??

[ICU2 Jerry Jerry 257]

Go back and read? If you do just that, you'll see that I didn't say that you said that.

But it would be essentially the same thing.

Unless Malthouse is available and wants to come to MFC, and it's a long shot, Bailey should be retained.

What makes you say he can't coach on match day?

Either we have kids in the side developing, or we don't.

They make mistakes, sometimes lots of mistakes.

I want to develop for as long as it takes.

You don't seem to realise that it takes longer than you'd like to wait for, but not amount of whining or coaching changes will alter that.

To play devils advocate for a sec, what makes you think he can?

I'm not pointing either way just yet but my post a few posts up discusses that I don't think we have seen any tactical match day coaching yet and we need to. Not to say he can't and without going over the same afore mentioned post I just think it remains to be seen.

I'm curious (and in no way sarcastic or ill humoured when I ask) what have you seen specifically that tells you he has the goods on match day? Any specific movement pattern or obvious tactical preparation in a game come to mind?

[Sir Why You Little 36,987]

To play devils advocate for a sec, what makes you think he can?

I'm not pointing either way just yet but my post a few posts up discusses that I don't think we have seen any tactical match day coaching yet and we need to. Not to say he can't and without going over the same afore mentioned post I just think it remains to be seen.

I'm curious (and in no way sarcastic or ill humoured when I ask) what have you seen specifically that tells you he has the goods on match day? Any specific movement pattern or obvious tactical preparation in a game come to mind?

To be tactical you need the cattle ready to fire. Our Cattle is still bulking up.

We must be patient, sod the media. The club is this time doing it the right way.

Who cares what Trash journalist write...Tomorrow's Toilet roll in all reality

Tomorrow is the tigers turn.

[Akum 2,660]

"Nail in coffin" is far overstating it. And I'm firmly in the pro-Bailey camp.

But I do have a couple of niggles that:

(1) There seem to be a number of situations during a game where we should have tactics, and we don't; the players should know where each other are, and they don't. Kick-outs, centre bounces, delivery into the 50 from a mark or free, the first and second disposals out of defence ... It's not just that we struggle in these situations, it's that we don't seem to have any plan, it seems to be up to the players to make it up as they go.

At this stage, we don't know one way or the other how well Bailey (or any of the coaches) can coach tactics & set plays.

(2) I can't recall in all of Bailey's time as coach any moves made during a game that have made a significant improvement. Yes, I understand the "hard-bodies-8-vs-2" reasons for getting pounded in the 3rd quarter last week, but there were a few "heavy bodies" that could have been thrown onto the ball - Dunn, Grimes, even Petterd or Bartram - but nothing happened.

Again, at this stage, we don't know one way or the other how well Bailey goes as a match-day coach, because so far he hasn't shown us anything.

I also wonder on whose orders we have nobody forward of centre all too often, especially if we're struggling. If this is Bailey's orders, it's another worry, because from the other side of the fence it seems to cause more problems than it solves.

I would like the Bailey situation to be more clear than it is. Developing team or not, our performance this year really needs to improve from what we've seen so far. Because there are coaches around who have proven track records in the areas I've mentioned above.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

I don't like losing and I hate surrendering but I know I just have to keep in mind that we keep losing experience to top up with talent, and that we do have these lovely little bursts where we look like world beaters.

It's hard though. Patience is not something that football supporters have much of but as a Demon I have no choice. I just have to put blind faith in the club and hope that the plan that they are sticking to will be the one that bears fruit.

[Sir Why You Little 36,987]

"Nail in coffin" is far overstating it. And I'm firmly in the pro-Bailey camp.

But I do have a couple of niggles that:

(1) There seem to be a number of situations during a game where we should have tactics, and we don't; the players should know where each other are, and they don't. Kick-outs, centre bounces, delivery into the 50 from a mark or free, the first and second disposals out of defence ... It's not just that we struggle in these situations, it's that we don't seem to have any plan, it seems to be up to the players to make it up as they go.

At this stage, we don't know one way or the other how well Bailey (or any of the coaches) can coach tactics & set plays.

(2) I can't recall in all of Bailey's time as coach any moves made during a game that have made a significant improvement. Yes, I understand the "hard-bodies-8-vs-2" reasons for getting pounded in the 3rd quarter last week, but there were a few "heavy bodies" that could have been thrown onto the ball - Dunn, Grimes, even Petterd or Bartram - but nothing happened.

Again, at this stage, we don't know one way or the other how well Bailey goes as a match-day coach, because so far he hasn't shown us anything.

I also wonder on whose orders we have nobody forward of centre all too often, especially if we're struggling. If this is Bailey's orders, it's another worry, because from the other side of the fence it seems to cause more problems than it solves.

I would like the Bailey situation to be more clear than it is. Developing team or not, our performance this year really needs to improve from what we've seen so far. Because there are coaches around who have proven track records in the areas I've mentioned above.

I will agree with this one...drives me NUTS...can see no reason in it...all teams do it!!!!!

[Deemort 28]

After watching Richmond get blown away tonight by the Hawks and Sydney playing really well against the Eagles in Perth, maybe we aren't traveling all that bad...

I mean I know that 3rd qtr was hard to watch but other than that we got to 27 points up against a geniune top 4 side who looks in really good nick (I know had they kicked straight we would've been blown away, but they didn't, and thats a big part of footy). You don't know how desperate the Lions are going to be, every week teams get up for games at different levels. I just want a really good consistent effort. Those that are saying just a win will not be enough... c'mon.. I know we should beat this depleated Lions side by 10 goals but I'll be happy if we play well and get 4 points to get this season started. Building momentum is the key to a young groups success.

[e25 5]

To play devils advocate for a sec, what makes you think he can?

I'm not pointing either way just yet but my post a few posts up discusses that I don't think we have seen any tactical match day coaching yet and we need to. Not to say he can't and without going over the same afore mentioned post I just think it remains to be seen.

I'm curious (and in no way sarcastic or ill humoured when I ask) what have you seen specifically that tells you he has the goods on match day? Any specific movement pattern or obvious tactical preparation in a game come to mind?

He hasn't had the tools at his disposal to really give us an unbiased view of his tactical skills.

But I think the effort to last year twice push Collingwood to the limit, with their supposedly impenetrable gameplan, was fairly impressive and would require some tactical nous from our coach.

The key will be once he has a more mature team that is capable of implementing his gameplan.

At this stage, to assess positional moves, for instance, would be folly, because he is more likely to leave a struggling kid on a superior opponent so that it can be a learning experience.

In actual fact, I recall Paul Roos' article about the key aspects of AFL coaching, and he made mention of an unnamed assistant coach he asked about the coach's gameplan.

The assistant replied that not much time had been spent on that aspect and he wasn't really sure.

At the time, I assumed it was Matthew Knights he was referring to.

On reflection, it could easily be Bailey he was referring to, and that more focus is being put on learning basic aspects of the game, considering our glut our young talented yet inexperienced players.

If that's the case, I wouldn't be too surprised and I'm behind it.

Development is our number 1 priority.

[jayceebee31 759]

Brad Green and Mark Jamar say Hi.

I seem to recall your seminal thread about Bailey losing the players. There was certainly heaps of evidence last year as to Bailey was trying to do.

Its a younger list this year. We have had 3 of our keys out in the midfield mix in Scully, Jordie and Morton. We have draw with a definite final contender at the MCG and got belted by a top 4 side with a 1000 games more experience and 4 times the number of hard bodies in the centre.

The acid test is on for all players and FD. Some of the claims on here are amazing to the say the least.

Very good points you raise and with this young list , there is going to be some inconsistancy. When we are able to settle fully in our stride with a near full list, then watch out. I think if Newton can keep going and comes into our MFC team this may also bring strength and a little toughness to our forward line.

[bing181 9,196]

The media are waiting to pull us apart (circling now) but i reckon the club will hang tough ...

Absolutely.

There are always people on these boards lamenting that we aren't "tough" enough (not naming names but you know who you are ...). But in sticking to our guns through some difficult times, and through not looking for easy or short-term solutions, the club is taking by far the toughest option.

And as above, leaving players on opponents when they're getting beaten is not necessarily a sign of (tactical) weakness on the coach's part ... it's a sign of toughness on the coach's part.