On 16/12/2010 at 06:54, dee-luded said:

Yes, I do, and I do recognise that simply having these people on the training track & around the club is a support on its own for those just starting to attain real leadership aspirations. For such a young list now exposed by the loss of maturity, the pressure will be felt by the remaining players of & entering leadership range. A player suck as Sylvia will load himself almost beyond his weight bearing capability.

I just hope he doesn't overtry.

I don't buy it

The other side of the coin (there is always one) is that it allows a younger kid (Grimes) to assume an official leadership role, hopefully fasttracking his development as a leader in the same way we have fasttracked them in their on-field positions

  On 15/12/2010 at 06:26, old dee said:

We look like starting 2011 with a near full list of fit players with good pre seasons behind them.

Woah, it's only December. Last year we lost Jurrah and Sylvia in final practice matches just before the season proper started. Bit early to talk about "full list".

  On 16/12/2010 at 05:15, rpfc said:

Wins matter, I agree. But unless we are a top 4 team we are not going to win a flag.

I don't think we are a top 4 team in 2011 so we are not going to win a flag.

I therefore hold other measurements in higher regard than wins and losses for next year.

That is the essence of my argument.

Fair enough.

A top 8 finish is all I really expect from 2011, anything more than that is a bonus.

Alright if this is what we're doing

1. Collingwood

2. St. Kilda

3. Fremantle

4. Western Bulldogs

5. Geelong

6. Hawthorn

7. North Melbourne

8. Melbourne

9. Carlton

10. Adelaide

11. Brisbane

12. Sydney

13. Port Adelaide

14. Essendon

15. Richmond

16. West Coast

17. Gold Coast

Probably being a bit optimistic... Carlton might nick in and take our spot in the 8

Of course the number of wins is important! If we win 11 or more, all else being equal (i.e. number of serious losses), it's good.

If we get a similar number of wins (say, 8-10) we'll have to look at other measures to work out whether the season will have been a success or not. In that case, it will matter if we've won or lost a number of close ones, if we've won more quarters, if some important young players have done well, if we've had a bad run with injuries and so on.

It's just that wins isn't the be-all & end-all. But significantly more wins covers a lot of other factors, because to get more wins we'd have to do a number of things better.

  On 16/12/2010 at 05:15, rpfc said:

Wins matter, I agree. But unless we are a top 4 team we are not going to win a flag.

I don't think we are a top 4 team in 2011 so we are not going to win a flag.

I therefore hold other measurements in higher regard than wins and losses for next year.

That is the essence of my argument.

I take your point. But to finish 6th, our young team will have had the experience of playing in 2 finals, and perhaps even winning one of them.

Isn't that better preparation for when we're serious flag contenders than no finals?

For what it's worth....

1. Collingwood

2. St. Kilda

3. Fremantle

4. Geelong

5. Western Bulldogs

6. Hawthorn

7. Carlton

8. North Melbourne

9. Melbourne

10. Adelaide

11. Sydney

12. Brisbane

13. Port Adelaide

14. Richmond

15. Essendon

16. West Coast

17. Gold Coast

I want to see Interstate wins. I expect one at the Gold Coast, I want to see a hoodoo or two broken. Team building stuff. Go Dees!

  On 16/12/2010 at 08:09, Akum said:

I take your point. But to finish 6th, our young team will have had the experience of playing in 2 finals, and perhaps even winning one of them.

Isn't that better preparation for when we're serious flag contenders than no finals?

Finals would be valuable no doubt, but it depends on how we get there...

If Scully, McKenzie, and Trengove are getting plenty of time in the guts and Gysberts, Blease, and Tapscott get some time, and Watts and Jurrah get games where they are the focal point in the forward line and we expose some kids other than Grimes to the HBF, then I would be happy for this young team to play in a doomed finals campaign.

I just value what I have previously mentioned over finishing 6th.

  On 16/12/2010 at 10:30, rpfc said:

Finals would be valuable no doubt, but it depends on how we get there...

If Scully, McKenzie, and Trengove are getting plenty of time in the guts and Gysberts, Blease, and Tapscott get some time, and Watts and Jurrah get games where they are the focal point in the forward line and we expose some kids other than Grimes to the HBF, then I would be happy for this young team to play in a doomed finals campaign.

I just value what I have previously mentioned over finishing 6th.

why you little mentioned the media. Extend that to memberships/supporters (existing and potential), general attendances, sponsorship, fixture/broadcast rewards next year with more exposure etc and just keeping the momentum up, gaining some respect and relevance in the comp.. all these are benefits of winning more games/finishing higher on the ladder. I'm inclined to think it takes priority over the development type stuff you mention, but both sides are important and it's a close call. Hopefully it's not one or the other and we get all of it.

  On 16/12/2010 at 10:27, nostradeemus said:

I want to see Interstate wins. I expect one at the Gold Coast, I want to see a hoodoo or two broken. Team building stuff. Go Dees!

yes good call

we can't be a top4 side until we start winning on the road, we are getting closer to securing the MCG as our house of pain as it was there for a bit around 04-06, but we need to win elsewhere. Etihad stadium is as bad a hoodoo as anywhere and let's not even mention the Cattery, I can't wait til we win one down there

  On 16/12/2010 at 02:27, e25 said:

Yes, but to expect 13-15 wins is bloody absurd.

I think you'd have to agree, if we finish 2011 in the top 4, we are well ahead of the development curve.

I agree, when you put it like that it sounds absurd. However, if you go through the draw for next year one round at a time, mark off which games we should win, which we should lose and which are 50-50, then tally up the results you'll get a pretty similar figure.

My take on next season so far shows 11 clearly winnable games and 4 50/50. Assuming we win half of the 50/50's that puts us up to 13. If we were to win them all, it's 15. Simple. As with last year, I won't be at all surprised if there are some massive changes, but if one side performs above expectations, it's a safe bet that another will perform well below. That is the way it worked out this year when I had Fremantle as easybeats and Brisbane as a strong side. It all evened out in the end.

It's worth noting that I'm confident of a few wins interstate this coming season. I think West Coast is very doable, the GC should be ours for the taking, although I consider them a real danger, especially late in the year when they've had a chance to gel a bit. Richmond will throw everything at us, but we are a year or two ahead of them and should have their measure. North Melbourne is a side we should be aiming to beat, but who continually walk all over us, so I'd love to see us knock them off this time.

R1 v Sydney (MCG), Sunday March 27 Win

R2 v Hawthorn (MCG), Sunday April 3 (t) Loss

R3 v Brisbane Lions (MCG), Sunday April 10 (e) Win

R4 v Gold Coast (G), Sunday April 17 Win

R5 bye

R6 v West Coast (PS), Thursday April 28 (n) 50/50

R7 v Adelaide (MCG), Sunday May 8 Win

R8 v North Melbourne (ES), Saturday May 14 50/50

R9 v St Kilda (ES), Saturday May 21 Loss

R10 v Carlton (MCG), Friday May 27 (n) 50/50

R11 v Essendon (MCG), Friday June 3 (n) Win

R12 v Collingwood (MCG), Monday June 13 Loss

R13 v Fremantle (MCG), Sunday June 19 (e) Loss

R14 v Richmond (MCG), Saturday June 25 Win

R15 v Western Bulldogs (ES), Friday July 1 (n) Loss

R16 bye

R17 v Port Adelaide (TIO), Saturday July 16 (n) Win

R18 v Hawthorn (MCG), Sunday July 24 Loss

R19 v Geelong (SS), Saturday July 30 Loss

R20 v Carlton (MCG), Saturday August 6 50/50

R21 v West Coast (ES), Sunday August 14 (e) Win

R22 v Richmond (MCG), Sunday August 21 (t) Win

R23 v Gold Coast (MCG), Sunday August 28 Win

R24 v Port Adelaide (AS) TBC Win

  On 16/12/2010 at 11:51, RalphiusMaximus said:

R1 v Sydney (MCG), Sunday March 27 Win

R2 v Hawthorn (MCG), Sunday April 3 (t) Loss

R3 v Brisbane Lions (MCG), Sunday April 10 (e) Win

R4 v Gold Coast (G), Sunday April 17 Win

R5 bye

R6 v West Coast (PS), Thursday April 28 (n) 50/50

R7 v Adelaide (MCG), Sunday May 8 Win

R8 v North Melbourne (ES), Saturday May 14 50/50

R9 v St Kilda (ES), Saturday May 21 Loss

R10 v Carlton (MCG), Friday May 27 (n) 50/50

R11 v Essendon (MCG), Friday June 3 (n) Win

R12 v Collingwood (MCG), Monday June 13 Loss

R13 v Fremantle (MCG), Sunday June 19 (e) Loss

R14 v Richmond (MCG), Saturday June 25 Win

R15 v Western Bulldogs (ES), Friday July 1 (n) Loss

R16 bye

R17 v Port Adelaide (TIO), Saturday July 16 (n) Win

R18 v Hawthorn (MCG), Sunday July 24 Loss

R19 v Geelong (SS), Saturday July 30 Loss

R20 v Carlton (MCG), Saturday August 6 50/50

R21 v West Coast (ES), Sunday August 14 (e) Win

R22 v Richmond (MCG), Sunday August 21 (t) Win

R23 v Gold Coast (MCG), Sunday August 28 Win

R24 v Port Adelaide (AS) TBC Win

think you are pretty close, maybe a couple of your 50/50s are more like 67/33s against us but you have us down for 2 losses against the Hawks and i reckon based on our last encounter we are a good chance at one or both of those, also Freo at G is surely a 50/50 we should have done them over in WA last time we met. Fair enough for 2 losses against the pies but of course they were only one point better than us over 8 quarters last year. Our draw is brilliant and extremely cushy in the last 4 rounds heading into September, we could be scraping into the finals with a head full of steam

  On 16/12/2010 at 10:46, Curry & Beer said:

why you little mentioned the media. Extend that to memberships/supporters (existing and potential), general attendances, sponsorship, fixture/broadcast rewards next year with more exposure etc and just keeping the momentum up, gaining some respect and relevance in the comp.. all these are benefits of winning more games/finishing higher on the ladder. I'm inclined to think it takes priority over the development type stuff you mention, but both sides are important and it's a close call. Hopefully it's not one or the other and we get all of it.

How'd Essendon go this year?

Agree with your last sentence.

  On 16/12/2010 at 12:14, 45HG16 said:

How'd Essendon go this year?

Agree with your last sentence.

What has Essendon got to do with it? Absolutely nothing, that's what

  On 16/12/2010 at 12:57, Curry & Beer said:

What has Essendon got to do with it? Absolutely nothing, that's what

Oh yeah, I forgot that Essendon "winning more games/finishing higher on the ladder" in 2009 garnered a fantastic "general attendance, sponsorship, fixture/broadcast (especially now leading into 2011), keeping the momentum up and relevance in the comp," they reaped these "benefits" and are in a great position to make big strides in the next season.

I'm 100% positive that they're glad that they didn't focus merely on the "development type stuff" in light of reaping these rewards.

  On 15/12/2010 at 00:47, e25 said:

Really, what does this even mean?

To me, that's so vague it's not even worth mentioning.

Not trying to have a go at you, because a lot of people come out with this type of statement, but what more do you want from Sylvia, a bit more specifically?

the only thing that Sylvia can show as, is playing every week, i think we have never seen a full season from him injury free.

  On 16/12/2010 at 02:45, High Tower said:

I think you need to consider and recognise that 2011 is still very much development mode. We've lost a little experience and we're going to be playing first or second year players and still get games into them (like last year). Sure we love the win-loss ratio and everyone keeps their eye on it. But given where we are at, whilst we expect some further improvement, the FD use a range of other KPI's in measuring improvement; not just win loss ratio. Winning quarters, clearances, i50's, stoppages. - Improving in each should help improve the side and the result might be a better win/loss ratio. It might not as well.

If we are 0-6, even having been competitive, clearly it would not be where the club would like to be. And the doomsdayers will be out in force saying "I told you so"...that's the nature of footy and this forum. I think next year is about remaining competitive, staying in the game for longer. Introducing more youngsters and developing them further will be the go. No doubt aiming to win every quarter, every game.

In other words take care of the little things first. Do them well, and that should take care of everything else. Small steps.

That's what many said this time last year.

that's a load of crap, are you a pollie, you talk spin, if we are 0=6, that means we are not competitive, and it will be doomsday, if we don't win a least 8 games then it will be another 5 years before we are in the 8 again, YOU CAN DEVELOP FOREVERY, there is a time when only wins matter, and that time is now, if we don't win games then Bailey will be out the door, that the way it is

  On 16/12/2010 at 09:55, Grandson of a gun said:

For what it's worth....

1. Collingwood

2. St. Kilda

3. Fremantle

4. Geelong

5. Western Bulldogs

6. Hawthorn

7. Carlton

8. North Melbourne

9. Melbourne

10. Adelaide

11. Sydney

12. Brisbane

13. Port Adelaide

14. Richmond

15. Essendon

16. West Coast

17. Gold Coast

Reakon with some injury luck we can leapfrog Carlton and North .

St.Kilda & Freo to falter slightly IMO .

I liked what Shwabby had to say in our latest mag about just watching our kids develop , if we can tear some good sides apart along the way (and I don't see why not) we'll collectively go off our 'eds .

Really , I just want the football world left in no doubt whatsoever that we've got it right and are going to be a serious force .

people should stop thinking that 2011 is a development year,what because we lost miller, Bruce, and McDonald, if you look at the stats, in it;s raw state then yes we have lost experience, and age,you cant look at raw stats like that, first miller was not even pick for most of the year, and we looked a better side,when he was not playing, Bruce gets a lot of the ball, but is not dangers, so if he not there, more players that are better with the ball will get it more, and when McDonald was out injured, for parts of the year we did not miss him,take these player out, and the stats will look a lot different,we have gained more experience, from last year, scully is only going to get better, with a full preseason, LJ will play more games this year,and we look more dangers in the forward line when he is there,watts is another year older, we must win more games next year,win lose is what matter now,

  On 15/12/2010 at 00:45, e25 said:

Spot on, and to be honest, I think this is fairly obvious.

*Might want to remove that "if" in the first line.

45's focus on quarters is interesting.

I know Bailey has produced this stat from time to time.

I think 44+ out of 88 as an expectation is maybe asking too much at this stage (winning 50%+ of our quarters).

Obviously you don't want to put limits on the kids, but I'd be happy with 40+.

General improvement is what I want to see, but not necessarily in the wins column.

I think we as supporters are smarter than that.

I aggree we can measure improvement in many ways all of the above

What I will love to see is that in the quarters when we dominate and there were manylast year we HAVE TO KICK GOALS!!

How many more quarters would we have won if we had kicked straight in the first quarters -How many more games might we have won if we were well ahead when we should have been

If we do that all else should fall into place

It has been a problem for many years

  On 16/12/2010 at 07:14, bing181 said:

Woah, it's only December. Last year we lost Jurrah and Sylvia in final practice matches just before the season proper started. Bit early to talk about "full list".

Bing this time last year we had 8 players coming off longterm injuries/ operations.

Not one in this category this year.

Yes someone can go down with an injury today.

However We are in a much better position at the end of 2010 than we were last year.

PS Sylvia was not injured in the last practise match it was earlier.

Jurrah and Bell were injured in Adelaide in the last practise match.

  On 16/12/2010 at 13:46, 45HG16 said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that Essendon "winning more games/finishing higher on the ladder" in 2009 garnered a fantastic "general attendance, sponsorship, fixture/broadcast (especially now leading into 2011), keeping the momentum up and relevance in the comp," they reaped these "benefits" and are in a great position to make big strides in the next season.

I'm 100% positive that they're glad that they didn't focus merely on the "development type stuff" in light of reaping these rewards.

We are not the Essendon Football Club. We are not the Essendon Football Club.

Firstly, they are one of the biggest clubs in the game, are financially sound and have historical and recent success that is respected. They do not need to be anywhere as concerned with those other factors as we do.

Besides, what exactly did they do in 2009 that caused their development to go backwards in 2010, I would like someone to specify it for me since people keep saying it

They went backwards because their coach was rubbish and their list simply not very good

I don't know why you seem to think 'oh whatever happens at the EFC must repeat at the MFC' it's a nonsenical concept

What in your mind are the potential mistakes we can make by trying to finish higher on the ladder, what are you actually saying, do you want us to drop Jamar so we can get some games into Max Gawn or something? Again, specify please.

  On 16/12/2010 at 21:32, Curry & Beer said:

We are not the Essendon Football Club. We are not the Essendon Football Club.

Firstly, they are one of the biggest clubs in the game, are financially sound and have historical and recent success that is respected. They do not need to be anywhere as concerned with those other factors as we do.

Besides, what exactly did they do in 2009 that caused their development to go backwards in 2010, I would like someone to specify it for me since people keep saying it

They went backwards because their coach was rubbish and their list simply not very good

I don't know why you seem to think 'oh whatever happens at the EFC must repeat at the MFC' it's a nonsenical concept

What in your mind are the potential mistakes we can make by trying to finish higher on the ladder, what are you actually saying, do you want us to drop Jamar so we can get some games into Max Gawn or something? Again, specify please.

I believe he is saying that 2009 was not a platform for 2010 for the EFC.

Just like Geelong 2006 (10th) wasn't for Geelong 2007 (Premiers).

And the MFC have to expose their talent to the AFL more than they need to play in a losing final.

I think Coll, WB, StK, Geel, Haw, and Freo are well ahead of us in 2011. And I think we will be in a sh!tfight with NM, Adel, Carl, and Syd for the last two spots in the eight. I'm happy for the kids to experience the sh!tfight.