Laser Boots and Contested Marks.

[Debamboozle 29]

You're still placing TOO much emphasis on kicking skill.

I look at it like this. The MOST important skill for a footballer is Kicking skill...

But it's not the ONLY important skill. What's more, having a good kick on its own is not enough. I'd take a player with a combination of any two of the following skills over a player with ONLY footskills: quick hands, contested marking, pace, reading of the play, football brain and endurance.

Eg: Scully = quick hands + pace (+ probably footy brain)

Bail = pace + footy brain

Bruce = endurance + reader of the play

Gysberts = elite hands + footy brain

McDonald = footy brain + endurance

Morton = endurance + reader of the play (probably kick too, but not yet)

From what little I've seen, Strauss has the kick. But then so did Chris Johnson.

He's off to a good start, but there's still a LOT of work to be done, and he certainly needs to bring a defensive element to his game. If he could go back with the flight and have the toughness of, say, JoelMac... then we'd really have a player on our hands. But so far, he's not shown me any aptitude for this kind of thing. Not to stick the boot in here... I'm sure he has leaps and bounds of improvements left in him. But to say he's one of the "most exciting talents" on the list is probably overstating it a bit for mine.

He's a good junior, but hasn't shown nearly as much as Trengove, Gys, Scully, Petterd, McKenzie, Bail, Grimes, Frawley, Bennell, Jetta or Morton... who are all pretty much still kids.

I wanted to start another topic but you've done it already with this post, Dappa Dan.

Looking at the team on the wknd, I noticed that we have very few laser boots in it.

I think I know where the footy department are going with their drafting over the last few years. Unlike the reactionary drafting of the Daniher years, I believe we have been drafting lately for how the game will be played in 5 years time.

Decision making is crucial to the high tempo, mauling ruck style game of today.

Endurance is also very important - Gaz became the premier player in the comp when the team told him to pull his finger out and become a runner. Morton, Scully and Trengove have shown what impact you can have at an early stage if you can run and run.

Bailey has repeatedly stated (despite what some supporters believe) that he is a kick man, and has tried to draft accordingly. He wants elite kicks in the team. Unfortunately, they haven't played enough or at all yet. What I mean by laser boot is the sizzling, worm burner.

At present I think the only player in the team who kicks like this is Davey.

Drafted because they were 'elite' kicks in the junior ranks: Morton, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott.

Are up with the best kicks in the team for other reasons beside the worm burner: Jurrah.

Not 'laser boots' but are generally very reliable fields kicks: Green, Grimes, and Frawley (when running in a straight line).

Who I think have the tools and will show in time: Trengove, Jetta, Wonna, Bennel, Watts, Bail.

Geelong are exceptional at the field kick but beside Hunt don't have too many laser boots. Bulldogs were going to be team full of laser boots but have fallen away considerably this year in this regard and their position on the ladder reflects this. Collingpoo have alot of very good kicks in their team. Hawthorn of 2008 had many laser boots in their left-foot brigade. Freo have found a number. Brisbane don't beside Drummond and Rich. Saints have Dal who is not really a laser boot, but most of their team are very very good at kicking while under pressure.

In the coming years, I think the poor kicks will find it increasingly hard to get a game: Moloney, Jones, Bruce, Junior, Riv, Bartram, MacDonald, Miller.

Anyway, now I'm rambling. I think if we can get the really good kicks in the team playing 40 odd games together, you'll see a very different Dees outfit in the years to come. Do we have enough great kicks of the footy?

Or will the game change in 5 years time, where its so congested and more an 'athletic' running game, that elite field kicking is not needed as much?

Same topic could be discussed in regard to contested marks. We don't have enough at the moment on the list, but will it be an obsolete skill in 5 yrs time?

[jnrmac 20,185]

ALL the good kicks drop the ball low to the boot. Hodge, Eagleton, Hunt, Davey etc

Bruce drops it from around 4ft in the air. This is not a Bruce bash but you reckon the coached can fix this.

I reckon Frawley was a poor kick and has changed his style markedly. He now is very deliberate and holds the ball very low, close to his foot.

A lot of Geelong players now do that. Its very effective.

[Akum 2,660]

Or will the game change in 5 years time, where its so congested and more an 'athletic' running game, that elite field kicking is not needed as much?

Same topic could be discussed in regard to contested marks. We don't have enough at the moment on the list, but will it be an obsolete skill in 5 yrs time?

Helluva OP, great work.

I think Strauss will be great in time. IMO he can be a potent weapon with his disposal, and he can also play defensively (though perhaps not quite as effectively at this stage). But the bar's been set very high for him, because he's being asked to learn to do both at the same time - to be tight on his opponent, while at the same time zoning off to use his elite kicking skills to take risks in order to break lines, with the knowledge that a slight miss could result in a bad turnover. It's a huge ask, and guys like Hodge & Gilbee & Josh Hunt took a few years to get it right, but I'm sure he'll get there.

Your comment about contested marks is interesting too. The reason why J-Pod takes a lot of contested marks is that his teammates are good at drawing their opponents away so that he's usually one-on-one without a "third-man-up", and the kicker kicks it into space on his side of the contest, so he's always in by far the better position to either take the mark or bring it down in a controlled way to the advantage of one of their crumbers.

There's a way to kick to a contest that gives your team a much better chance of winning the ball, and Geelong have mastered this. For us, if there's no-one on their own to give an easy pass to, we just seem to bomb it long (which used to be called "kicking to position") to where we're outnumbered. IMO there's a huge difference between "kicking to position" and kicking to a contest in a way that gives your man the advantage.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Look at our midfield and half-back line:

Moloney, Grimes, Scully, Jones, Bruce, Bartram, MacDonald have all played there at times this year. None of them is a reliable kick.

Scully has plenty of other attributes that make him far from a worry, same with Grimes (yes, I believe Grimes' kicking sucks, I know plenty of others disagree but for a player with his obvious talent he turns it over too much). But the rest don't do a lot more than bullocking work, and in Bruce and MacDonald's case they create the run off half back and more often than not turn it over.

Clearly the drafting of Strauss, Blease, Bennell, Jetta and Tapscott was targeted at improving kicking skills but they're all developing. So for the meanwhile we have to look to the aforementioned players to work on their own kicking skills. I mean, Moloney and Jones really do struggle to hit the target week in, week out.

Edited June 7, 2010 by titan_uranus

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Look at our midfield and half-back line:

Moloney, Grimes, Scully, Jones, Bruce, Bartram, MacDonald have all played there at times this year. None of them is a reliable kick.

Scully has plenty of other attributes that make him far from a worry, same with Grimes (yes, I believe Grimes' kicking sucks, I know plenty of others disagree but for a player with his obvious talent he turns it over too much). But the rest don't do a lot more than bullocking work, and in Bruce and MacDonald's case they create the run off half back and more often than not turn it over.

Clearly the drafting of Strauss, Blease, Bennell, Jetta and Tapscott was targeted at improving kicking skills but they're all developing. So for the meanwhile we have to look to the aforementioned players to work on their own kicking skills. I mean, Moloney and Jones really do struggle to hit the target week in, week out.

Jones has improved his kicking out of sight. The most improved kick for our club I would argue.

Grimes is also a fantastic kick but he likes taking the risky option which I don't mind. Shows he is not afraid

of making mistakes and wants to take the game on.

[Steamin Demon 392]

Look at our midfield and half-back line:

Moloney, Grimes, Scully, Jones, Bruce, Bartram, MacDonald have all played there at times this year. None of them is a reliable kick.

Scully has plenty of other attributes that make him far from a worry, same with Grimes (yes, I believe Grimes' kicking sucks, I know plenty of others disagree but for a player with his obvious talent he turns it over too much). But the rest don't do a lot more than bullocking work, and in Bruce and MacDonald's case they create the run off half back and more often than not turn it over.

Clearly the drafting of Strauss, Blease, Bennell, Jetta and Tapscott was targeted at improving kicking skills but they're all developing. So for the meanwhile we have to look to the aforementioned players to work on their own kicking skills. I mean, Moloney and Jones really do struggle to hit the target week in, week out.

Name me five players that are 100% effecient by foot. NONE !! All AFL players will miss a target, It's called pressure. I think you are expecting absolute perfection by foot all the time. UNREALISTIC.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Name me five players that are 100% effecient by foot. NONE !! All AFL players will miss a target, It's called pressure. I think you are expecting absolute perfection by foot all the time. UNREALISTIC.

No I'm not.

It's not unfair to suggest that the players I mentioned are less than reliable when it comes to kicking. As I said, players like Scully and Grimes give a lot more to the team and their kicking isn't as bad as some others. But for players like MacDonald, Bartram, Bruce, it hampers their output in games.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Good opening OP DBB. Though, I would say I'm quite certain what your assertion is, though I don't disagree with many of the dot points.

Looking at the team on the wknd, I noticed that we have very few laser boots in it.

My position on the team's kicks is that there are plenty of prodigiously good kicks in the side, and it didn't surprise me to see they came to the fore when we were physically dominating games. In my opinion that's the difference between the good kicking sides, and the ones who's skills seem average. When you run to receive you make your team-mates look good. Also when you're too fit, quick, and big to be tackled (Ablett) your kicks will be under less pressure.

IMO it's not that we need to recruit better kicks. They're there already, we just need to play better footy in terms of man-on-man stuff to give ourselves the space to run-to-receive, and the ability to get space so we look good when disposing.

At present I think the only player in the team who kicks like this is Davey.

He's the exception that proves the rule IMO. What he does that no-one else does is kick properly under pressure. Just about no-one in the league, has his eyes and deft touch... as well as the guts to shoot for a tough target. Not even Trav when he was going for the tough option was as reliable. The truth is though, you're never going to recruit a side full of guys who can kick that well. Davey is one of only a few of his kind, and in many ways, he's one of a kind. Marking the other 43 against his example is probably ALWAYS going to make the 43 look bad.

Drafted because they were 'elite' kicks in the junior ranks: Morton, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott.

IMO Blease + Tapscott who have not played could get there. I wouldn't call them elite in that respect though. Blease is good, but I reckon was drafted as much for pace and endurance as anything. Tapscott has incredible penetration, but I would say Trengove is a better all round kick. Strauss is certainly up there and has shown plenty. Morton has done enough without much support in his career to date. Maric is the only one who's really let me down.

Not 'laser boots' but are generally very reliable fields kicks: Green, Grimes, and Frawley (when running in a straight line).

Green probably deserves to be almost elite. He's been shooting at goal this year though....

Who I think have the tools and will show in time: Trengove, Jetta, Wonna, Bennel, Watts, Bail.

Bail is the odd man out here. Effective, but not prodigious like Trengove, who I rate as just about our best kick besides Aaron.

In the coming years, I think the poor kicks will find it increasingly hard to get a game: Moloney, Jones, Bruce, Junior, Riv, Bartram, MacDonald, Miller.

Here's where I differ. The two Jmacs, Miller and Bruce won't be on the list in 2-3 years, so aside from them, I reckon the others will, just like the rest of the side, start to look good once they get some support. Jones is a good example. He's not a disaster when it comes to kicking. Yes, he's not a great kick, but he can be very effective assuming his team-mates take care of him. Moloney likewise has some strengths with kicking, but when he's kicking to a contest he often doesn't shape his kicks to his mates' advantage. When the side develops bigger engines and workrate, he'll be made to look good again as he did early this season.

Anyway, now I'm rambling.

We should start a club. :D

I think if we can get the really good kicks in the team playing 40 odd games together, you'll see a very different Dees outfit in the years to come.

Yes, but like I said, bigger engines and some seniority, as well as the majority approaching 100 games, will have a greater effect on their kicking than recruiting a couple of wiry skilled outsiders.

Do we have enough great kicks of the footy?

IMO, yes. In all areas but one. Forwards. I reckon we need one more big forward who can contest and kick straight. Doesn't have to be 200cm, ridiculously quick or smart.

Or will the game change in 5 years time, where its so congested and more an 'athletic' running game, that elite field kicking is not needed as much?

Kicking will ALWAYS make a difference to a team's flag chances. Other things change, sure, but kicking in general play + kicking under pressure + kicking under extreme exhaustion will always make an ordinary side good (Daniher era) and make a good side great (Saints).

Same topic could be discussed in regard to contested marks. We don't have enough at the moment on the list, but will it be an obsolete skill in 5 yrs time?

Yup. But that correlates directly with size and fitness. Petterd for example, off a pre-season, is suddenly swallowing them and our most dangerous forward (til he got hurt). Being injury prone also plays a part. I think we'll find Jurrah and Ricky will be like Micky O at the Swans. Good players who will get hurt a bit purely because of how they play. Johnno Brown is another example.

Also, I'm not losing as much sleep about contested marking as I am the kicking side of things. I don't care if Miller + Watts get spoiled, as long as they get it to ground and to the advantage of Bennell and Wonna, who are starved of ground level ball. Hell, even Watts crumbing is pretty damn impressive. Miller is your classic slow thinking footballer. He'll contest and do everything right, but won't get it to a team-mate's advantage, making his lost marking contests a win for his opponent every time. This is where someone like Neitz would be helpful with Jack. David was one of the all-time great contesters in the air. He had problems taking a mark at times, but he could clear the path of 3 defenders making Davey a weapon... And in effect adding 6 goals to our total for the day without ever getting boot to ball.

We need a player like this. Something like a Roughead would be delightful. Shame he's been snaffled up.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Day off on Tuesday's Dappa?

[Red Sox 2]

How can people have a go at Grimes disposal??????

Granted he probably averages one ugly turn over a game - specifically after a team mate dishes it off to him when he is not in a good spot to dispose of it!

Takes a chance....

[JCash 0]

ALL the good kicks drop the ball low to the boot. Hodge, Eagleton, Hunt, Davey etc

Bruce drops it from around 4ft in the air. This is not a Bruce bash but you reckon the coached can fix this.

I reckon Frawley was a poor kick and has changed his style markedly. He now is very deliberate and holds the ball very low, close to his foot.

A lot of Geelong players now do that. Its very effective.

Bruce only does this as he has weak hamstrings hence why he has little penetration on his kicks too. He is running around doing his bit but to scared to push to hard.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

How can people have a go at Grimes disposal??????

Granted he probably averages one ugly turn over a game - specifically after a team mate dishes it off to him when he is not in a good spot to dispose of it!

Takes a chance....

His kicking isn't consistenly good, and for someone of his obvious talent, it should be better. He turns it over more than once a game. And it's not always because he shouldn't have received the ball in the first place.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Day off on Tuesday's Dappa?

MOST of my days are days off at the moment.

:D