Footy Classified

[Demon Stalwart 255]

Tonight on Football classified

Gary Lyon and Grant Thomas made different comments regards bailey

Gary said he believed supporters had every right to ask why Bailey was given a extension on his contract at this stage

Gary did not support that extension himself.

It was pointed out that Garry was one who helped select Bailey

Gary stated that at the time he was the right coach

However it seems now if you read between the lines Gary seems to have some doubts that he is the right coach for now

Gary does not believe we can let the team of with such a insepid performance we cant continue to make excuses

Grant Thomas believes that Bailey doesnt have enough passion to be the no1 coach but would make a better fist of it as a assistant coach.

For better or worse the extension has been given by the Melbourne Football Club

Therefore for now we are stuck with Bailey lets hope for all our sakes he can turn it around

At the moment things look grim over the next few weeks time will tell the story

Lets hope that the players show some passion and fight like blazes to restore some pride in the red and blue and lets hope the coach is capable of bringing out that passion.

One thing is for sure as time passes either some people at Board Level will be seen as visionarys or poor decision makers that have let

their supporters down once again.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Demon Stalwart

[Sir Why You Little 36,971]

Lets see how pumped the players are this week against the filth before we go completely off Bails.

Watch the players intent & forget the scoreboard.

[Guest hangon007]

Reckon Gary would make a better poker player than Joe Hachem.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Sadly Grant Thomas is spot on in his assessment. Even Garry Lyon has gone luke warm, he was only prepared to back DB as the best of the available options 2 years ago.

We can only hope that DB watches the footage of Paul Roos paying out on his Swans players at 3/4 time for what was to him an unacceptable performance.

From the other thread:

Nice bloke and says the right things but is he good enough? I watched carefully and there is very little by way of a plan. Bailey please please make me look foolish in the coming weeks.

On the TV there was no vision of him being tormented or getting into the players ( I truly hope I just missed it but I doubt it.)

In contrast on Saturday night ¾ time in the Swans match Roos strides out onto the ground approaches the playing group who dropped a 20 point bundle and says "shithouse f***ing shithouse" Points out what they didn't do and walks away he then turns back to them "not good enough just shithouse."

And iv'a worn smith noted "But is Dean Bailey a strategist and motivator on game day?" He certainly wasn't on Saturday. By contrast, Chris Connolly probably has these skills whereas DB is the teacher.

[e25 5]

Tonight on Football classified

Garry Lyon and Grant Thomas made different comments regards bailey

Garry said he believed supporters had every right to ask why Bailey was given a extension on his contract at this stage

Garry did not support that extension himself.

It was pointed out that Garry was one who helped select Bailey

Garry stated that at the time he was the right coach

However it seems now if you read between the lines Garry seems to have some doubts that he is the right coach for now

Garry does not believe we can let the team of with such a insepid performance we cant continue to make excuses

Grant Thomas believes that Bailey doesnt have enough passion to be the no1 coach but would make a better fist of it as a assistant coach.

For better or worse the extension has been given by the Melbourne Football Club

Therefore for now we are stuck with Bailey lets hope for all our sakes he can turn it around

At the moment things look grim over the next few weeks time will tell the story

Lets hope that the players show some passion and fight like blazes to restore some pride in the red and blue and lets hope the coach is capable of bringing out that passion.

One thing is for sure as time passes either some people at Board Level will be seen as visionarys or poor decision makers that have let

their supporters down once again.

At first thought I actually considered Thomas may be right about this.

He may still be, but it occured to me that Ross Lyon has a very similar calm relaxed demeanor.

In any case, he is correct that Bailey would be one of the best assistants.

Pity we will never have a chance to get him in that role.

[Bay Riffin 1,472]

Sadly Grant Thomas is spot on in his assessment. Even Garry Lyon has gone luke warm, he was only prepared to back DB as the best of the available options 2 years ago.

We can only hope that DB watches the footage of Paul Roos paying out on his Swans players at 3/4 time for what was to him an unacceptable performance.

horses for courses. the Roos footage was shown because it was so out of character. Roos made Dean Bailey look like Barry Hall over his coaching career. You just couldn't get a rise out of him.

Give Bailey something. Nobody can justify that inept performance into his third year, but let the dust settle at least.

He has probably 2 months before the vultures circle for his blood. Maybe sooner if Saturdays performance is repeated often enough.

[Axis of Bob 11,681]

There's no blood for the vultures to circle around. That's why the board did it. They want him coaching in 2010 and 2011 because they have the information with which to make such a decision.

Have you noted that the response from the media has been pretty half arsed? Same to Richmond. They know nothing is going to happen, so why would they bother. They might have a piece here or there to pander to the emotions of the restless natives, but they know that there is not a snowflake's chance in hell that either Melbourne or Richmond will change coach this year.

[Mono 455]

There's no blood for the vultures to circle around. That's why the board did it. They want him coaching in 2010 and 2011 because they have the information with which to make such a decision.

.............................

Maybe. I think its more a case that they didn't want runours floating very early in 2010. I am not a fan of Bailey, but I don't think a coach in his position can go into a season with it being his last on a contract. Better to give a one year extension, and assess mid-year, and pay out/settle the contract if need be (I'm betting Bailey is on pretty low $s for an AFL coach ~$350K). Connolly is able to take over as caretaker if need be. (At least he'd show some passion!)

I'm betting he is gone mid year, but hell, what do I know.

But FFS, get rid of Mahoney.

[Sir Why You Little 36,971]

This is part of the pain we must go through, although i do expect more intensity at the ball next Saturday...We are playing Collingwood so there is no better indicator

Do it Bails-extract every ounce of coaching knowledge you have and get those players ready for a battle, make the Filth earn everything and you just never know what can happen.

It will be hard for the Filth to be fully charged this week-human nature.

Start the first Q with a forward line that can kick a few goals,

[Demon trucker 1,800]

This is part of the pain we must go through, although i do expect more intensity at the ball next Saturday...We are playing Collingwood so there is no better indicator

Do it Bails-extract every ounce of coaching knowledge you have and get those players ready for a battle, make the Filth earn everything and you just never know what can happen.

It will be hard for the Filth to be fully charged this week-human nature.

Start the first Q with a forward line that can kick a few goals,

everything they say about DB are the same things, everyone was saying about the hawthorn's coach, thing can turn around very suddenly.remember we are missing Morton,jarrah,Collin S and Collin G, that's four of our best player out, if three of these players where playing, things would have been a lot different,they are really big blows, we don't have any experience in our depth in our list,there is no one to replace player like that.we have to have our best 22 playing every game to win, at the moment we have our best 18 out on the Park

[Jarka 767]

I'm really dissappointed witht he result from the weekend, no devastated is probably more accurate because I honestly believed that they were capable of competing. But now is not the time to start calling for a new coach, it's just the first game of a long season. The problems with the team which were exposed are nothing new, it's our mid aged players that are not up to it. This isn't something that's going to take a couple of years to fix, we have to be honest with where we're at.

I'm realistic to understand that we're still going to be in the bottom two this year, but one thing that I expect fromt he team is gradual improvement throughout the season. If that doesn't happen that my opinion on whether we need a new coach will change.

[timD 994]

Speculation about Bailey's coaching ability is something that most of us, including me, do and should do. The problem is always one of data - what info do we have to make our assessments and what info do we not have that would influence our understanding? Kind of like rumsfeld's 'known knowns' if you get what I mean.

Bailey has given some pretty strong hints about stuff, but you have to be a tea leaf reader to put them all together. He was given the job, in part, because of his knowledge of the list, undertstanding of game plans and ability to inspire as seen by the selection committee. I think it was nathan burke (i think?) who said that he would have liked to play under Dean.

He has led the side to two bottom finishes, getting draft picks in the process. FWIW, this strikes me as deliberate. It is my opinion that Bailey does not rate the talent that he inherited and has made a deliberate effort to get more talent and try to see who could do what from the group he decided to keep. This means that we are left with a group of not quite NQR players and a group of talented youngsters (who themselves are a bit of an unknown quantity).

Bailey himself is also learning as a coach - he is not the finished product when he begins (nor could anyone reasonably expect him to be). So, we've a bunch of old players who cannot lead effectively, kids who are new to it and a brand new coaching panel. Couple this with a poor midfield, no established or competent forwards and the worst facilities in the land and what do you expect?

My guess is that the missing 'structure' is part deliberate - Bailey is testing the squad to see who has the skills and drive to improve; and part the fault of players not executing the way they are instructed. Bailey has spoken to us before about poor skill levels and a need to take the game on. We have players that do not do what he says. Problem is, they are the only ones we have. The only way to get better is to play kids, minimise bleeding and get rid of players too stupid or too inflexible to do what he says. Bennell gets picked because he tries to do what is instructed. Strauss will for the same reason. Players who are 'coachable' will get a gurnsey and everyone else will be extremely talented or phased out.

As for issues of players playing for the coach, well, i think this is bunkum. players should be playing for each other, the jumper, themselves. THe coach needs the playing group to hold itself to standards - something geelong does extremely well. THis group doesn't and that is another agenda running along the whole time - something that Bailey has targetted from early on too.

It is complex, and there are lots of things that we don't know. i'm not convinced about bailey, but he's not lost me either. Wish i had 2 hours with him so that he could explain what the hell is going on!

[btdemon 482]

Garry Lyon should know better. He is obviously quite close to Jimmy and the club in general, and to fuel speculation about Bailey at this stage is really damaging. Yes, he is a journalist, and has the responsibility to ask questions, but it would be very easy for him to play a straight bat. Even if he thought bailey was the worst coach in the world he shouldn't be eroding the confidence in his position when he knows Bailey has a year to run. I see it as injudicious at best, mischievous and disloyal at worst.

Edited March 29, 2010 by btdemon

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Bailey himself is also learning as a coach - he is not the finished product when he begins (nor could anyone reasonably expect him to be). So, we've a bunch of old players who cannot lead effectively, kids who are new to it and a brand new coaching panel. Couple this with a poor midfield, no established or competent forwards and the worst facilities in the land and what do you expect?

...

It is complex, and there are lots of things that we don't know. i'm not convinced about bailey, but he's not lost me either. Wish i had 2 hours with him so that he could explain what the hell is going on!

This is all true. My reading of most of the frustration on demonland since Saturday is that supporters are doing the therapeutic thing of expressing their passion and emotions, and definitely disappointment, while also writing about the things they see DB needing to learn.

Like iv'a worn smith noted "But is Dean Bailey a strategist and motivator on game day?"

I'm sure we all hope DB's learning from the agony he definitely felt too on Saturday, about how to get into the heads of the squad he's currently got (partly a result of significant injuries).

[Jack Jack 415]

My guess is that the missing 'structure' is part deliberate - Bailey is testing the squad to see who has the skills and drive to improve; and part the fault of players not executing the way they are instructed. Bailey has spoken to us before about poor skill levels and a need to take the game on. We have players that do not do what he says. Problem is, they are the only ones we have. The only way to get better is to play kids, minimise bleeding and get rid of players too stupid or too inflexible to do what he says. Bennell gets picked because he tries to do what is instructed. Strauss will for the same reason. Players who are 'coachable' will get a gurnsey and everyone else will be extremely talented or phased out.

Surely after 2 seasons and 3 preseasons the time for testing is over. If Bailey doesn't have a fair handle on what the players are capable of now, when will he? I think that maybe it is a little premature to judge Bailey so far this season (I didn't catch any preseason games), but the time for testing is over, he needs to show what he is capable of this year.

Slightly on topic, can you coach awareness? I saw a few passages where our players where so focused on the ball that they missed opportunities to shepherd (I'm sure there where other incidents but the wine I consumed to ease my pain has also dulled my memory)

[Range Rover 1,935]

(I didn't catch any preseason games)

Our efforts in all matches over the past month and a half have been as follows:

vs Fremantle at Subiaco - Terrible, comprehensively beaten

vs Essendon at Visy - Flattered by the final score, well beaten for 3 quarters

vs Adelaide at Elizabeth (SA) - Competetive for 4 quarters, albeit against a side with poor pre-season form

vs West Coast at Casey - Okay in patches but outclassed overall and never in it.

vs Hawthorn at MCG - Debacle

[e25 5]

Surely after 2 seasons and 3 preseasons the time for testing is over. If Bailey doesn't have a fair handle on what the players are capable of now, when will he? I think that maybe it is a little premature to judge Bailey so far this season (I didn't catch any preseason games), but the time for testing is over, he needs to show what he is capable of this year.

Slightly on topic, can you coach awareness? I saw a few passages where our players where so focused on the ball that they missed opportunities to shepherd (I'm sure there where other incidents but the wine I consumed to ease my pain has also dulled my memory)

re: awareness, i believe you can, using specific drills that focus on this part of your game.

[Axis of Bob 11,681]

Is the time for testing over because you are sick of losing, or because it's what is best for the development of the team?

Bailey is clearly still developing the young players. He needs to balance the development of his players against going flat out for a win. Look at Grimes running with Hodge. If Bailey was going flat out for a win then he'd have played Grimes in his best spot, at half back, and brought in Bartram to tag Hodge. Grimes has shown that he can play half back well, but we want him to end up being a midfielder. So Bailey tells him to follow Luke Hodge around so that he can learn exactly where a star midfielder runs to win the ball.

Alternatively, playing Spencer over Martin. Given Hawthorn's lack of ruckmen it would have bee easier to play the more flexible Martin rather than Spencer. He would have offered more up forward. But if Bailey sees Spencer as a long term ruckman and wants to develop him by playing AFL then he's right.

Bailey was given an extra year because the board knew that we had to be patient, and that's not something supporters (or the media) enjoy. So we gave him an extra year and, in a way, forced everyone to be patient. The good thing about this is that Bailey can now spend an extra year developing kids rather than have to fight for a contract by picking the best team to win the next game, rather than the best team (and tactics) to win the 2014 Grand Final.

[Jack Jack 415]

Is the time for testing over because you are sick of losing, or because it's what is best for the development of the team?

Yes, it's true, I'm sick of losing.

Bailey is clearly still developing the young players. He needs to balance the development of his players against going flat out for a win. Look at Grimes running with Hodge. If Bailey was going flat out for a win then he'd have played Grimes in his best spot, at half back, and brought in Bartram to tag Hodge. Grimes has shown that he can play half back well, but we want him to end up being a midfielder. So Bailey tells him to follow Luke Hodge around so that he can learn exactly where a star midfielder runs to win the ball.

Alternatively, playing Spencer over Martin. Given Hawthorn's lack of ruckmen it would have bee easier to play the more flexible Martin rather than Spencer. He would have offered more up forward. But if Bailey sees Spencer as a long term ruckman and wants to develop him by playing AFL then he's right.

Bailey was given an extra year because the board knew that we had to be patient, and that's not something supporters (or the media) enjoy. So we gave him an extra year and, in a way, forced everyone to be patient. The good thing about this is that Bailey can now spend an extra year developing kids rather than have to fight for a contract by picking the best team to win the next game, rather than the best team (and tactics) to win the 2014 Grand Final.

I understand why Bailey was given an extra year, at the time I thought it was a good idea. I also understand that as a young side the player development will continue for some time. What I want to see some of is team development. If Bailey was without structures to isolate players and see how they would react, then I'm sure he would/should know enough by now. But this year we should see player and team development. From what I saw on Saturday there was little or no team development.

[pitmaster 3,513]

Think about it. Results like last Saturday are exactly why Bailey was given the extension.

One thing I want to put to rest is this stuff about how the players weren't fired up. Truth is, they were overwhelmed by more mature bodies, but their tackling was great for most of the game. I think McKenzie brought Hodge down once when it looked like he was going to be run over.

Last week was the biggest physical working over for years and we were too small, too immature and our game was broken down 15 minutes in. But there was honest effort. Don't believe me, take a look at the replay.

[Choko 493]

It is a hell of an assertion to make that Bailey does not have the PASSION.

It's one thing to criticise Bailey's demeanour, game plan, tactics, etc.... because any mug can do that from the sidelines. But to damn his passion is to claim a knowledge of his character. I would like to know how Grant Thomas knows Bailey's passion? Has he worked with him? Has he observed that Bailey doesn't have the same work ethic as other coaches? Have MFC players told him? Is it is just his "vibe" based on what Bailey projects? In all likelihood and knowing the tool Grant Thomas is, it's the latter. In which case, he can get stuffed.

[Demon3 2,541]

Garry Lyon should know better. He is obviously quite close to Jimmy and the club in general, and to fuel speculation about Bailey at this stage is really damaging. Yes, he is a journalist, and has the responsibility to ask questions, but it would be very easy for him to play a straight bat. Even if he thought bailey was the worst coach in the world he shouldn't be eroding the confidence in his position when he knows Bailey has a year to run. I see it as injudicious at best, mischievous and disloyal at worst.

For starters he is not journalist, he is a commentator and media host. very different to being a journalist. He is not fuelling any speculation on Bailey at all, he like alot of other members and supporters are frustrated by the teams lack of success. He is to strong and honest a person to play a straight bat, he was asked a question and answered it with brutal honesty, not sure what you want out of your football media, but thats exactley what i want, past great or no past great. To even accuse Lyon of anything disloyal is crazy.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Garry Lyon should know better. He is obviously quite close to Jimmy and the club in general, and to fuel speculation about Bailey at this stage is really damaging. Yes, he is a journalist, and has the responsibility to ask questions, but it would be very easy for him to play a straight bat. Even if he thought bailey was the worst coach in the world he shouldn't be eroding the confidence in his position when he knows Bailey has a year to run. I see it as injudicious at best, mischievous and disloyal at worst.

He is not in the media to play the role of Demon defender

He may also be thinking that it is a good and necessary thing for the footy department and the players to have a bit of a blowtorch put on them so that they might lift. If Bailey is not the man and he shouldn't be there, than the best thing to do is get it out in the open and replace him ASAP, it does not serve us to ignore the truth. I am not saying this is the case, but if Lyon (or anyone else) feels that way he is perfectly justified in saying it as part of his media role

Edited March 29, 2010 by Curry & Beer

[praha 11,236]

At the end of the day, not much difference is going to be made in the next 12 months. Anyone who thought we would be playing finals footy before 2012 is kidding themselves. He is here for another two years, giving the young kids a chance. He might not be the best coach going around, but he's essentially doing what Rhode did at the Bulldogs, and now look at them. As long as the young kids are bled and we get something from our older players, I think we're on the right track. But obviously playing the way we did on Saturday is unacceptable and we're better than that. We need to see improvement, and had the Hawks been at full-strength, we'd have lost by more than we did in round 1, 2008, because I think we actually played worse in the first half on Saturday than we did throughout that entire game.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'm really dissappointed witht he result from the weekend, no devastated is probably more accurate because I honestly believed that they were capable of competing. But now is not the time to start calling for a new coach, it's just the first game of a long season. The problems with the team which were exposed are nothing new, it's our mid aged players that are not up to it. This isn't something that's going to take a couple of years to fix, we have to be honest with where we're at.

I'm realistic to understand that we're still going to be in the bottom two this year, but one thing that I expect fromt he team is gradual improvement throughout the season. If that doesn't happen that my opinion on whether we need a new coach will change.

Good post Jarka, simple sense in the light of reason.

It is what it is.

We will improve, gradually throughout the season. And we will be somewhere bottom 4.