If I had have left yesterday's match at Casey at 3QT, I would've been reasonably happy. We did good things in patches, and fell away in others, but the one thing that was consistently horrible was the kick-in setup.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

The West Coast players would set up a standard zone, and then our players went and stood in the space between them. ????????

More often than not, there was NO movement, no leading, no calling. The players just stood there and waited for something to happen.

Poor James Strauss was put under the pump almost every single time. He has an elite kick, that's why we recruited him, and with time will become our designated kick-in guy. And indeed, his skills were on display yesterday. He hit some great targets at long range and was quite impressive.

But much of the time, there was no-one obvious to kick to. Hence, on several occasions he was forced to play on and load up a long bomb - kick and hope. On other occasions he had to attempt a pin-point 40-50m pass to a player surrounded by Eagles - no margin for error. To his credit, Strauss hit a few targets like this.

Where are our defensive coaches? Have they been asleep all summer?

It was clear that they players had no instructions, or otherwise the worst instructions ever. A huddle possibly? Any sort of movement? A designated leading target on the 50m arc? Decoy leads?

My fears are these:

1. If Hawthorn plays their famed Cluster against us in Rd 1, we will be wiped off the park with the worst possible start to the season.

2. If kick-ins don't improve soon, Strauss' confidence will be shot. The long bombs are bound to cause turn-overs, so is the boy going to start blaming himself for 'poor' kicking?

Get onto it, Dean.

I couldn't understand why Strauss wasn't using the short option that was often provided. Too often he chose to go long, and we turned it over in a contest, when a safe option was available. It's possible his instructions were to go long as often as he could, but it just didn't work yesterday.

This really is an area we suck in. Has been for a few years. But I do like the idea of having a designated kick-inner (as opposed to whoever wants to do it), and having Strauss in that role is good.

If our kick-ins are bad, our zone on opposition kick-ins is worse. Hard to understand how we can never take a mark on ours and never stop them taking marks on theirs.

I couldn't understand why Strauss wasn't using the short option that was often provided. Too often he chose to go long, and we turned it over in a contest, when a safe option was available. It's possible his instructions were to go long as often as he could, but it just didn't work yesterday.

This really is an area we suck in. Has been for a few years. But I do like the idea of having a designated kick-inner (as opposed to whoever wants to do it), and having Strauss in that role is good.

a desginated kicker doesn't work. in todays quick game you need a few who can pick up the ball and kick to a free man immediately. we just appeared to wait too often. I agreed Strauss had some options short but wasn't confident enough to hit up the target.

I thought the weagles were more disciplined throughout the game. we did ok first half but then just fell away, sadly again.

I couldn't understand why Strauss wasn't using the short option that was often provided. Too often he chose to go long, and we turned it over in a contest, when a safe option was available. It's possible his instructions were to go long as often as he could, but it just didn't work yesterday.

This really is an area we suck in. Has been for a few years. But I do like the idea of having a designated kick-inner (as opposed to whoever wants to do it), and having Strauss in that role is good.

did you see what happened the couple of times they did go for the short safe option? it was trapped in the defensive 50, with a messy handball run to follow. I watched the kickouts imparticular, knowing its an ongoing issue, and very very very rarely did I see any movement from any players, and safe options weren't all that safe. Often Jamar running into region about 60m out was the only lead. happened pretty often that Strauss had no option but to bomb it to him. bit of a tough ask.

The short option is the poor man's option. It rarely is good for setting up attack from the backline.

Lots of movement from our players, decoys, leading targets up the ground seem the way to go, like the OP mentioned.

As with our setups up forward, it's hard to imagine the specialist coaches aren't addressing these obvious problems. And yet time after time, we spectators watch and bemoan what we simplistically call "lack of game plan". Of course, there's a game plan. But what is it? Why aren't the players playing by it? Is it beyond them? Don't they get it? What are the coaching staff doing to fix whatever the problem is?

It's tough starting a new season with the same old as we've been watching for the past two seasons (with some good improvement during 2009, I must say, which is why the current lapse is disappointing).

Its all about running and taking the first option. I have been banging on about it for years (we sucked under Daniher as well).

WTF have they been working on since OCTOBER!!!!

Its all about running and taking the first option. I have been banging on about it for years (we sucked under Daniher as well).

WTF have they been working on since OCTOBER!!!!

Seriously, Bailey needs to encourage Bennel to run hard out of defence. Watching his under 18 performances, he was great when he took the ball and ran from half back.

I believe players should be given the opportunity to play their natural game.

This short handball stuff in defence is only going to lead to disaster. Only takes one error, turnover and goal.

We have been no good in this area for a very long time! I'm nearly 28 and it has been shocking for as far back as I can remember. I'd like to see the stats on effective kick-ins, clearances from defensive 50 etc over the past 10 or so years, because I think without a doubt, we would be close to being the worst every time.

Just a minute!!! This is MY topic! I've been whingeing for years about our kick-ins and defence of them. I thought Demonlanders were sick of this topic because they think it's too difficult or not significant.

(see "POINT KICK-INS" in "search".)

But no-one ever takes any interest in it. (especially the coaching staff, though "bomber" Riley once sent me a personal email , defending our methods, when he was defence coach. He boasted about how good our kick-in stats were, though in my opinion, it was glaringly obvious our tactics were amateurish, watching them in practice. By the way, Carlton are now facing similar criticism.)

I've made suggestions for different tactics, and I've suggested copying our opposition when I've seen how well they do it. I've requested suggestions from other Demonlanders. But no-one ever seems the slightest bit interested!!!!

I reckon modern teams need to be innovative in their tactics in such absolutely CRUCIAL matters as point kick-ins. One of the keys is RUNNING. Players tend to want to have a breather when the ball's out of play after a point. This is when they must RUN and provide many leading options.

We've lost Whelan and Wheatley, our two best kickers-in. Don't give up, "Johann"(Strauss). There will be clangers, but get your mates to run, run, run, to give you options. Kick long to a Melbourne cluster , running forward ,between wing and the centre.This could be your chance to establish yourself a niche in the AFL.

Does anyone else think this is important?

As with our setups up forward, it's hard to imagine the specialist coaches aren't addressing these obvious problems. And yet time after time, we spectators watch and bemoan what we simplistically call "lack of game plan". Of course, there's a game plan. But what is it? Why aren't the players playing by it? Is it beyond them? Don't they get it? What are the coaching staff doing to fix whatever the problem is?

It's tough starting a new season with the same old as we've been watching for the past two seasons (with some good improvement during 2009, I must say, which is why the current lapse is disappointing).

Agree. I can't imagine players rock up to training, Bails gets out the Herald Sun, skips to comics, forward back and mid coaches take gossip business and travel respectively, Jimmy cracks out the crispy creams and Connolly proclaims "learn football good!". I think Bails has game plans. I'm pretty sure he might have even shown some of them to the board that may have impressed them. May have even gotten him the gig as coach.. the question is, does our kids, yeah thats right kids, in every sense of the word age and games wise, have the ability to carry out these game plans? Clearly no!

We have game plans. This isn't the baccus marsh U13 girls league, this is Profesional sport. We have game plans, change rooms, doctors and all that jazz.

Jnrmac I agree. All the top sides instictively play on. They don't even think about it, it just happens. Does that ability come with confidence? Does confidence only come when one feels physically safe on the field (ie has enough size)? Is time the key to it all? Unless it just clicks overnight, you would have to think only time is going to make us a force again period. I want Neitz back. Why did he have to leave!!!!

Nostradeemus. Thanks for replying to the topic(though not to me).

I don't get your point. Are you saying that you agree, our tactics on point kick-ins are not good, or are you ridiculing anyone who dares to suggest that with such excellent coaching, our tactics aren't professional.?

Whatever, at least you took the trouble to reply to the topic.

It interests me that no learned posters on this forum consider it worth discussing. And they never have! I pray that the coaching staff don't think the same way, or I reckon we're doomed to the cellar!

One thing we have to do is get all defenders able to kick. Maybe Warnock can have a rest but the rest of them have to do it. Strauss can take the delayed kick ins but the rest need to take quick ones.

Running to provide options is definitely the key. Especially on big grounds. The long bomb to Jamar is an acceptable play, but it needs to be deep (like 65m+) and we have to have the numbers at the fall of the ball. Besides that we need a lot of movement to try and get the short/medium kick out to a target. This is where players need to work hard to get someone on a lead 30m out and at least not right on the boundary. Finally we need to get a better zone when we score points, because our zone is as bad as our kick outs.

Well summarised, "Master".

Nostradeemus. Thanks for replying to the topic(though not to me).

I don't get your point. Are you saying that you agree, our tactics on point kick-ins are not good, or are you ridiculing anyone who dares to suggest that with such excellent coaching, our tactics aren't professional.?

Whatever, at least you took the trouble to reply to the topic.

It interests me that no learned posters on this forum consider it worth discussing. And they never have! I pray that the coaching staff don't think the same way, or I reckon we're doomed to the cellar!

Well summarised, "Master".

Jumping jack, in my time reading this on this forum I've never seen anyone say that kick-ins are not a problem for Melbourne, so I don't think its completely accurate to harp on about no one caring. I haven't read every post, so I may be wrong about that. I think we all care though, because we all see the ball get butchered in the backline on just about every kick-in, but maybe its as simple as, no one has suggestions. I know I get exasperated watching, and would not even consider in my head creating some fancy kick-in setup when the players aren't doing something as basic as running in the backline to present. Baby steps may be the place to start. Once Melbourne players show that they can do the basic things, then maybe we'll all hold higher hopes of complicated set-ups actually working.

thats not to say I don't think we'll make it... I just think somethings going wrong in the coaching methods when basic things don't seem to be happening. We'll get there one day.

I totally agree. I take the kickouts myself. Our system works pretty well. We have rover and ruck rover leading in frmo the 50 m arc. If that doesnt work we have two players on each flank one to block and one to mark and also we have as a last option our ruckman at 60 metres out with the centre half back and the centreman to rove.

Last resort is the back pockets who are free, they receive it and then we switch and start the run. From watching Melbourne I can see nothing of note as to a plan. No run from behind, when someone does they do it wrong because they run right into trouble. Seems to me that the lack of a defensive game plan from kicking out is the reason we are horrendous at doing it.

I totally agree. I take the kickouts myself. Our system works pretty well. We have rover and ruck rover leading in frmo the 50 m arc. If that doesnt work we have two players on each flank one to block and one to mark and also we have as a last option our ruckman at 60 metres out with the centre half back and the centreman to rove.

Last resort is the back pockets who are free, they receive it and then we switch and start the run. From watching Melbourne I can see nothing of note as to a plan. No run from behind, when someone does they do it wrong because they run right into trouble. Seems to me that the lack of a defensive game plan from kicking out is the reason we are horrendous at doing it.

Amen to that.

One thing we have to do is get all defenders able to kick. Maybe Warnock can have a rest but the rest of them have to do it. Strauss can take the delayed kick ins but the rest need to take quick ones.

Running to provide options is definitely the key. Especially on big grounds. The long bomb to Jamar is an acceptable play, but it needs to be deep (like 65m+) and we have to have the numbers at the fall of the ball. Besides that we need a lot of movement to try and get the short/medium kick out to a target. This is where players need to work hard to get someone on a lead 30m out and at least not right on the boundary. Finally we need to get a better zone when we score points, because our zone is as bad as our kick outs.

Excellent post

Any supporters expecting our players to make leads in between the oppositions zone you're in for a very frustrating year. Our kick in strategy to counter zones is to remain stationary in unguarded areas. It makes sense too. If a player is leading you need to kick it out in front of them, this plays into the zones favour because an opposition player will be out in front of them as part of the zone.

The only movement or leads you will see are before the opposition sets up the zone in which case we will kick it out quickly to a player in space or outside the zone where cluster of players will lead and we will bomb it to that area.

Just a minute!!! This is MY topic! I've been whingeing for years about our kick-ins and defence of them. I thought Demonlanders were sick of this topic because they think it's too difficult or not significant.

(see "POINT KICK-INS" in "search".)

But no-one ever takes any interest in it. (especially the coaching staff, though "bomber" Riley once sent me a personal email , defending our methods, when he was defence coach. He boasted about how good our kick-in stats were, though in my opinion, it was glaringly obvious our tactics were amateurish, watching them in practice. By the way, Carlton are now facing similar criticism.)

I've made suggestions for different tactics, and I've suggested copying our opposition when I've seen how well they do it. I've requested suggestions from other Demonlanders. But no-one ever seems the slightest bit interested!!!!

I reckon modern teams need to be innovative in their tactics in such absolutely CRUCIAL matters as point kick-ins. One of the keys is RUNNING. Players tend to want to have a breather when the ball's out of play after a point. This is when they must RUN and provide many leading options.

We've lost Whelan and Wheatley, our two best kickers-in. Don't give up, "Johann"(Strauss). There will be clangers, but get your mates to run, run, run, to give you options. Kick long to a Melbourne cluster , running forward ,between wing and the centre.This could be your chance to establish yourself a niche in the AFL.

Does anyone else think this is important?

Yes, but not the last couple of recruiting seasons.

I think Now we can start to slowly start to settle the team lineup, mostly this year & some more next season.

It's now that we need to be more efficient with our ball use and streamline our attacking moves out of the backhalf.

I think we'll see plenty of stuff ups in the first half of this season as we struggle to settle the new defence with a couple of young guys plus the newly aquired MacDonald, and some young rotations in our midfield zone. So, I'd expect to see some exciting sights from our young brigade, & some infuriatingly frustrating things as well.

the experienced players are in for a pressured season mopping up the mistakes that inexperienced players with New methods, make.

I'd hope/expect, the second half of the season to be more steady football wise & we'll have many players back from injuries, so, if we're still in touch with the teams around us on the ladder, we may be able to climb over one or two.

Could it be, that they are so low on confidence and that worried about making mistakes, that they're too scared to call for it.

That's the feeling i get sometimes.

Martin has impressed me when he runs hard and into space. He's tall and fast and could split the zones as a kickout target by marking the ball and playing on. I saw him do this very well against the Wiggles and the intraclub match. He ran into the 1/2 forward flank, caught the ball at full steam and powered on. No-one was within shepherding distance.

He doesn't have to kick (thank goodness) but he can draw a defender and handpass to a running back or a supporting midfielder. This could be a set play to give us some variety at the kickouts.

We've tried to set up Martin as a key defender or forward. Maybe he's better as a mobile target.

Martin has impressed me when he runs hard and into space. He's tall and fast and could split the zones as a kickout target by marking the ball and playing on. I saw him do this very well against the Wiggles and the intraclub match. He ran into the 1/2 forward flank, caught the ball at full steam and powered on. No-one was within shepherding distance.

He doesn't have to kick (thank goodness) but he can draw a defender and handpass to a running back or a supporting midfielder. This could be a set play to give us some variety at the kickouts.

We've tried to set up Martin as a key defender or forward. Maybe he's better as a mobile target.

Exactly, thats why I put him @ CHF in my team . To push up for the kick ins as a marking target as I think we lack this atmo.

Our point kick-ins(and defence of them) were abysmal last Sat.

I think we need to put some serious thought into adopting different tactics.

Our point kick-ins(and defence of them) were abysmal last Sat.

I think we need to put some serious thought into adopting different tactics.

I can remember a game against West Coast over at Subi when we were good, in which we dominated the 90% of the first quarter. Then West Coast scored a behind. The ball proceeded to stay in our defensive 50 for the rest of the quarter. Literally. We could not get it out of there to save ourselves. We've been bad at this aspect of the game for as long as I've watched footy.