I hate to say it but ...

[45HG 1,539]

That ol' chestnut. I think not 45h.

List management doesn't involve non-committal players during a game, tanking does.

That's a fair change from your original post HT

My view on tanking is not doing your utmost to win a game. "List management" (i.e. dropping players who you feel would give you the best chance of winning) is merely another form of tanking - it is not an aside from it.

I've said it many times this season, I do not believe we are good enough to tank as that would imply that we would've won otherwise.

I claim it was semantics because I feel whether you call it "tanking" or "list management" matters little - the rationale is practically identical.

Having said that, given that we're in a rebuilding phase I wouldn't be upset if we were to play the youngsters instead of some of the senion players, though, ironically, that would probably give us a better chance of winning. If we win 5, I will cry.

[DaveyJones'sLocker 647]

i hope we never win a game again

that way we can gets pick 1 and 2 every year

how good would that be?

U F'ING MORONS

[Adelaide Demon 0]

How about we try our behinds off this week to win. IF we win, we will be on three wins. Then when we play Richmond, North and Freo in a row, we can try our butts of to win them too. In fact, we can try to win every week from here to the rest of the season. And we might win two of them. We aren't good enough to win three out of eight. I think that if we miraculously got to four wins before the winnable game against Freo, then we would need to reassess, but that is not going to happen. Hopefully Freo can be our fourth win of the year. (And West Coast, Freo, Richmond and North can pinch a couple more each.)

I think considering supporting a loss when we only have two wins on the board is quite frankly disgraceful. Of course I want Scully and Trengrove/Butcher et al, but I also want Melbourne FC to earn some respect back in this competition. Let's win a couple more games this season.

[e25 5]

If anyone missed it, Terry Wallace effectively admitted tanking to get Trent Cotchin on Channel 7's Gameday program on Sunday.

I was surprised it seems to have gone unnoticed and he seemed quite sheepish about it all.

[Longsufferingnomore 1,631]

If anyone missed it, Terry Wallace effectively admitted tanking to get Trent Cotchin on Channel 7's Gameday program on Sunday.

I was surprised it seems to have gone unnoticed and he seemed quite sheepish about it all.

I saw it (reported yesterday 12.33pm)and I don't think he looked sheepish at all. In fact he was smiling when he said it. Will Mr. D call him in to explain? I don't think so. They will ignore the statement and just like last year when they wouldn't look into the Carlton fiasco - all too hard and it would expose other elements that they choose not to know about.

[Ryan Dee 140]

If anyone missed it, Terry Wallace effectively admitted tanking to get Trent Cotchin on Channel 7's Gameday program on Sunday.

I was surprised it seems to have gone unnoticed and he seemed quite sheepish about it all.

No he didn't.

[torpedo 33]

No he didn't.

In direct reference to discussions about tanking he stated that he made no tactical changes throughout an entire match and as a result of that the players got tired.

If its not an admission of tanking, what is it?

Edited July 7, 2009 by torpedo

[e25 5]

I saw it (reported yesterday 12.33pm)and I don't think he looked sheepish at all. In fact he was smiling when he said it. Will Mr. D call him in to explain? I don't think so. They will ignore the statement and just like last year when they wouldn't look into the Carlton fiasco - all too hard and it would expose other elements that they choose not to know about.

Yeah, I found it hard to read him. He seemed kinda sheepish, but kinda bragging about how he'd gotten away with it, like a naughty schoolboy. It was really strange.

But yes, Vlad will ignore it, as he will continue to ignore Carlton's tanking of the same year and he will ignore any tanking we or the WCE might be involved in this year.

The system is flawed, but you have to work with what you've got and make the system work for you.

NB.

I predict drastic changes to the priority pick system once it is reinstated after GC17 and WS18 are set up, so we will not see this ugly side of football again.

Mind you, it gives supporters of struggling clubs a lot to keep them interested and maintain hope during the dark times.

I'm sure the AFL prefers this to us losing interest and turning to other sports until our side is back on top.

[e25 5]

No he didn't.

He didn't specifically say "I TANKED."

But he did say something to that effect.

That is not to say the Richmond players tanked, but Terry Wallace definitely did not do everything in his power to win that game for the RFC.

He made that much perfectly clear.

[rpfc 28,253]

i hope we never win a game again

that way we can gets pick 1 and 2 every year

how good would that be?

U F'ING MORONS

Unfair.

The difference between 5 and 17 or 4 and 18 is one fantastic player - there is no doubt which win/loss ration would be more beneficial to the future of the club.

We hate it and I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue but if we finish on 5 and 17 it will hurt.

My personal view, and I think 45H misunderstood me, is that PA should beat us this weekend, but those pretenders are just as likely to put in a pathetic perfromance that our kids will pounce on.

[45HG 1,539]

I see you now, like they did in the second half against the Pies.

I still think they'll have enough to play for to outplay us. Would love to see the kids really fight it out.

[H_T 3,043]

Unfair.

The difference between 5 and 17 or 4 and 18 is one fantastic player - there is no doubt which win/loss ration would be more beneficial to the future of the club.

We hate it and I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue but if we finish on 5 and 17 it will hurt.

My personal view, and I think 45H misunderstood me, is that PA should beat us this weekend, but those pretenders are just as likely to put in a pathetic perfromance that our kids will pounce on.

Port will be ready to go. They're allegedly playing Chad Cornes. Back earlier than expected. They wouldn't risk him unless they were fairdinkum in obtaining the 4 points. They need this game, they need to get a couple of away wins to make the eight. This one is a must.

I hope our kids serve it up to them too 45h.

PS. If you run their recent formline through Geelong away and the win over Brisbane, it's pretty good.

Edited July 7, 2009 by High Tower

[killawatts 0]

Looks like Cox is going to miss again and Kerr is going to miss a second game with general soreness. The tanking may have begun.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tab...65/default.aspx

[e25 5]

Looks like Cox is going to miss again and Kerr is going to miss a second game with general soreness. The tanking may have begun.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tab...65/default.aspx

Not sure they need to tank against that opposition...

[kemp 0]

I hope Barry Prendergast is still evaluating the top ten properly not following the glitz and glamour of top picks. There are still four likely chances of wins in Port, North, Richmond and Fremantle. If hell breaks loose(erupting demons everywhere), we could end up with pick 5. Not saying its of a high likelihood, but possible. The following to me (in the next eight rounds) would be far more pleasing than two top picks:

Col Garland playing a game (not a necessity but hope he's doing well)

Dunn and Maric kicking 15 goals each

Robbo, Bate and Jurrah kicking 25 each

Miller/Newton back for 20 goals (either or)

restrict 5 oppositions to under 75 points.

If we can do all of these, suddenly we dont need a Butcher as a forward prospect, just one quality midfielder. If it turns out not to be scully or even trengove and we get some other keen youngster, id still be happy that our list is young enough to not have to worry about depleted drafts for the next however long.

[45HG 1,539]

Kempy, you're dreaming aren't you?

[Adelaide Demon 0]

Kempo Garland is unlikely to play again this year, Maric has just had shoulder surgery, Dunn is not capable of avergaing 2 goals a game, Newton is not capable, and whatever Robbo, Bate, Jurrah and Miller do, our forward line will still need some serious improvement.

If we win four and finish bottom, depending on WCE, we will get picks 1, 2 or 3, and likely 18 or 19 (depending on Freo and Richmond). So that compared with what you're saying, pick 5 and pick 22? or 23? ?? Three top-20 picks compared to one...

[Hannabal 4]

To me there seems to be three distinct camps - there's the "we're doomed if we win more than 4" group; the "one top draft pick won't win us a flag" exponents; or the “I don’t care about draft picks as they are not the be all and end all and I want my team to win every week they play”.

The facts are one player can make a difference to us potentially winning a flag. Those that dismiss such a notion are far too flippant. West Coast wouldn't have won a flag without Judd (pick 3) and Hawthorn wouldn't have won a flag without Franklin (top 5). Buddy didn't star on the day, but they wouldn't have made a GF without this 100+ goal freak. With Roughead as their priority pick (2) they yielded two top 5 picks in the 2004 draft.

It's stars that win you premierships and the best chance to draft a star is at the pointy end of the draft. There will always be those that point to Geelong and their lack of top picks, but they've been blessed with amazing Father/Sons.

Also, there's no hard and fast formula to win a flag, but in a competition that is far from a level playing field, due to club finances and a skewed draw, I want my club to have the best possible chance to win a flag before I fall off the perch in 40 years. And it’s not going to get any easier with two more teams coming in to the competition and the associated compromised drafts for the next 5 years. As reported on a thread here recently, Matt Rendell was interviewed by Graham Cornes on Adelaide radio about GC17 and stated that the general public won't realise how good the concessions are until 2014 when they are nigh-unbeatable. He followed it up with "I don't know how many people realise what's going to happen", to the groans of Cornes. He said that Champion Data statistics show you that there is a massive difference between first round picks and every other pick in the draft.

The Saints are top of the ladder on the back of their first round picks; Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Goddard, Ball, Hayes, and Dal Santo – four of whom were top 2 picks. To top it off, another pick 1 in Gardiner got them over the line against Geelong.

So yes, I don't want to win more than 4 games because the system tells me that we're inhibiting the only thing I care about if we do - a flag. Sure, it doesn't make it impossible, but it affects our chances. It makes us less likely to procure a star and I don’t want to reduce the chances of drafting the one thing that can be a huge factor in our short to medium future. The AFL allows a priority pick for a reason. It is well aware that it gives the clubs that need it most the best chance to rise up the ladder and challenge for a flag. And I only care about a flag. I’m not interested in making up the numbers during a Finals campaign like we did in 04, 05, or 06; I want the best chance of ultimate success.

We lost to Sydney in round 22, 2003 and on the back of that loss were able to secure McLean. Those that miss the point will say that getting McLean and Sylvia haven’t been the panacea we’d hoped for, but I’m the first to admit that there’s a degree of luck involved with drafts. It could be a Hodge/Judd - Franklin/Roughead draft, or it could be a McLean/Sylvia draft. There’s no question that there’s a degree of luck in football. Luck is reduced significantly though with the best players. Who still hurts about that Sydney loss ? How much did it put the club back that we didn’t win that match, or a couple of others ? It didn’t and some reading this won’t even remember it. The players and Coaches will always try to win on the day, of that I’m certain, but no-one will convince me that it’s in the club’s best interests to win more than 4 matches this year. It simply isn’t.

The old ‘culture’ chestnut is a furphy. The best players are usually the best players for a reason. There’s the odd Travis Johnstone, or Des Headland, but more and more the guys who are picked very early are at the top of the pile for a reason. Anyone who has read about Scully knows how driven he is. I’ve much faith in Watts and Grimes as future leaders too. These young men have been dedicated to winning since they were 12. They won’t lose the desire to compete, or have their culture ruined if we win 4 or less, as opposed to 5. And yes, players don’t tank, but the FD may have to make strategic choices.

Craig Cameron made a very good point to a few of us years ago (and it matters not if you’re not a fan of his). He said that usually always the quality of the top 6 of a club’s list will determine where that club finishes on the ladder in a given year. Some supporters wax on about a side only being as good as the bottom 6 of the 22 that runs out, but he proved through analysis of each club that it’s your best players that will determine your ladder position and flag chances (subject to vagaries such as injuries). Do the exercise yourself. Do the current top 4 teams on the ladder have the best crop of top 6 players out of all the 16 clubs ? Is there any doubt that the teams positioned at one and two have the two best top 6 lists in the competition ? Hawthorn’s top 6 won them a flag last year – Hodge, Franklin, Roughead, Mitchell, Sewell... Guess what ? The first three of those were top 5 picks. Look at the Saints top 6 in importance- Roo, Kosi, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hayes, Montagna. Other than Montagna they are all first round or top 2 picks. As stated earlier, Geelong is the one aberration through the most amazing list of Father/Sons in history.

I’m not certain that all supporters that post on here have a flag as their be all and end all. In fact, I’m certain some don’t. They get enjoyment through their footy club and watching their team play and if a flag is a by-product – great, but if not they’ll still enjoy the journey and the wins that come by the way. This is where I have a major disagreement. If I was certain I’d never see a flag I wouldn’t go to one more game of footy as an emotive participant. It’s only the hope of a flag that keeps me and many others going. Perhaps this explains why I differ on many issues to some and may seem hard on average players. It’s because many of them have little hope of taking us to a flag. That’s not to say that they aren’t valuable while they’re at the club, but a ‘use by’ date is definitely in place. We didn’t turn the list over enough in Daniher’s last years because we thought we were closer to glory than was reality.

Some Sydney/South fans told Paul Roos after their flag in 05 that “I can now die happy”. I would feel the same way. If things go to plan we will have had 9 picks in the top 21 over the last 3 years; including possibly three top 2. We’ll be well on the way. And those supporters craving the wins now will be more than compensated for their patience and the ‘lack of culture’ will seem a distant memory.

Having said all that, I can’t possibly criticize those supporters that crave a win every week despite the draft consequences - I just don’t agree. This is it though. I can’t go through one more year wanting anything other than a victory.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Hannabal

[beelzebub 23,313]

what ^ he said

Is entirely short sighted and foolhardy to waste this years early picks for some ridiculous sense of winning culture faux morality.

Theres a time for everything.. winning any more than two more games is not it this year !! would be just plain DUMB

[Akum 2,660]

Isn't it more accurate to say that we just want the pick that gives us Tom Scully?

Isn't it possible that Freo or WCE will prefer one of the key players out of the side that was undefeated in the carnival, that provided a third of the All-Australian side? Isn't it possible that Anthony Morabito or Kane Lucas (or Colyer or Darling or ...) would be more attractive to them than another Judd experience? I believe that if WCE had No.1 pick last year they would have picked NikNat not Jack. They see these guys in the WAFL every week, and their Vic-hating memberships & fans (not to mention media) would scream blue murder if they chose Scully first pick ahead of a WA native.

It's probably fortunate too that both Richmond & NM have changed coaches halfway through the season; that's usually enough to improve a team's performance, and both these sides are playing much better now. These new coaches will both want to keep coaching next year, they're not going to do that by tanking, they'll only be kept on if they get some wins (especially unexpected wins) on the board.

NM & Richmond will finish well above us, bless them. PA have their sights on the finals, they only have to finish ahead of Carlton, and even if they do badly & decide to tank, they will have already won too many games. The only teams who may finish below us are WCE & Freo, and they will both choose from the plethora of WA players who lit up the carnival rather than risk apocalyptic wrath by picking another Victorian with all they've been through.

IMO all this is academic, a lot of bluster over nothing. I don't want picks 1 & 2 or 3 necessarily - I just want whatever pick will give us Scully. Whoever else we get is a bonus, the main thing we all want out of the draft is Scully, isn't it? We can do this even if we finish 14th with WCE & Freo below us, which the tankers here might see as an absolute disaster. All the hype about Scully going No.1 is all based on the assumption that we're odd's-on to get No.1 pick and he is just what we need, but he may well not be every other side's No.1

[beelzebub 23,313]

careful..we are only currently one game clear at the bottom.. no guarantee of this in coming weeks as we play those that need to finish above us.. fate can be cruel.. Take nothing for granted !!

[maximum bob 462]

One of the best and most pertinent posts I've read Hannabal.

Agree entirely with your observations.

Time to get real and grasp the opportunity or else it's going to be a long corridor until the next window opens.

[rpfc 28,253]

We will get what we deserve.

If those arrogant tossers at Alberton turn up...

[flog 20]

Dont really know what all the fuss is about. Not a hope in hell we will win 3 more games. We might beat fremantle but thats it. Stress less people and start enjoying watching some of our new players each week. Grimes attack on the ball on the wing and kick to robbo would be a good start

[Hannabal 4]

Isn't it more accurate to say that we just want the pick that gives us Tom Scully?

Isn't it possible that Freo or WCE will prefer one of the key players out of the side that was undefeated in the carnival, that provided a third of the All-Australian side? Isn't it possible that Anthony Morabito or Kane Lucas (or Colyer or Darling or ...) would be more attractive to them than another Judd experience?

No, we need the priority pick as well. This is the last opportunity to take advantage of a pp over the next few years. Why on earth given the chance to get a free pick 2 or 3 would we blow it ? It's great to get Scully, but the extra top 3 pick is a must. Griffen was top 3, as was Roughead, Ball, Kosi, Sylvia, Ellis, Thomas, Wells... They're not all stars, but why lose the opportunity of a very good player, if not a star, because of 1-2 too many wins.

Being just satisfied with Scully is the sort of attitude that has got us where we are.

Btw, I'd take Morabito or Trengove with pick 2 - just leaning towards the former. I reckon Morabito will be a star. Morabito or 1 more win ? 200 game line breaking star or 1 more win ? Just Scully or Scully plus a potential star ?

The trickle down, or ripple effect of stars is palpable. Don't under estimate the benefits of that pp pick. It's massive.

Some say that we won't win 5 no matter how hard we try. I'm not so sure. But I'm happy to have wasted my time over a non-issue if it is the case. Not to mention enjoy the upcoming draft.