The Hawks won the Flag in 04 by making tough decisions and trading their players which had some trade value eg Thompson,Hay,Chic etc. Because they new that they couldnt win a flag with the current list.

What do we do we trade Jolly and keep White! Carlton wanted Yze we keep him. The players which had some trade value are now worthless! How many players are still around from 2000 GF loss?? Tough decisions needed to be after 2002 finals loss instead we tried to top up! How many Key position players did Daniher develop in 10 years?

The Hawks won the Flag in 04 by making tough decisions and trading their players which had some trade value eg Thompson,Hay,Chic etc. Because they new that they couldnt win a flag with the current list.

What do we do we trade Jolly and keep White! Carlton wanted Yze we keep him. The players which had some trade value are now worthless! How many players are still around from 2000 GF loss?? Tough decisions needed to be after 2002 finals loss instead we tried to top up! How many Key position players did Daniher develop in 10 years?

We failed to rebuild seduced by the possibility of an impending flag. Many clubs get sucked in to this. Lets hope we learn from the past and the Geelong and Hawthorn bueprint.

The Hawks won the Flag in 04 by making tough decisions and trading their players which had some trade value eg Thompson,Hay,Chic etc. Because they new that they couldnt win a flag with the current list.

What do we do we trade Jolly and keep White! Carlton wanted Yze we keep him. The players which had some trade value are now worthless! How many players are still around from 2000 GF loss?? Tough decisions needed to be after 2002 finals loss instead we tried to top up! How many Key position players did Daniher develop in 10 years?

Hawthorn topped up witth Guerra and Dew! You roll the dice. Unfortunately I think Danners was deluded in how close we were to a flag. He knew we didn't have the key postion personnel but blame here must also go to recruiting. We held on to a lot of fringe players when we could have been trying to unearth some KPP's.

The Hawks won the Flag in 04 by making tough decisions and trading their players which had some trade value eg Thompson,Hay,Chic etc. Because they new that they couldnt win a flag with the current list.

What do we do we trade Jolly and keep White! Carlton wanted Yze we keep him. The players which had some trade value are now worthless! How many players are still around from 2000 GF loss?? Tough decisions needed to be after 2002 finals loss instead we tried to top up! How many Key position players did Daniher develop in 10 years?

Hay and Lonie were traded in 05, Chick was traded in 02 (all for 1st rd picks!) . They also drafted well in 01, and they gave up a first rd pick in 03 draft for Croad's return, the weakest draft of the decade.

They have done better than most in the draft (not always - Jacobs), but players still need to be developed. They were lucky with Croad tho'. He left an insufferable big-head; returned much more mature (and on a much lower pay packet I'd wager).

Also, I think we learnt nothing from the 2000 GF. We were monstered, totally intimidated. To win a GF, you need to be able to intimidate. We should have started to draft and trade for hardness then.

Hay and Lonie were traded in 05, Chick was traded in 02 (all for 1st rd picks!) . They also drafted well in 01, and they gave up a first rd pick in 03 draft for Croad's return, the weakest draft of the decade.

They have done better than most in the draft (not always - Jacobs), but players still need to be developed. They were lucky with Croad tho'. He left an insufferable big-head; returned much more mature (and on a much lower pay packet I'd wager).

Also, I think we learnt nothing from the 2000 GF. We were monstered, totally intimidated. To win a GF, you need to be able to intimidate. We should have started to draft and trade for hardness then.

Totally agree with you. We continue to hang onto players like Green, Bruce etc who always go missing! The mental toughness is also required to win flags and how commited were our teams that made finals? Did they have enough hunger? Or was making finals enough?

Totally agree with you. We continue to hang onto players like Green, Bruce etc who always go missing! The mental toughness is also required to win flags and how commited were our teams that made finals? Did they have enough hunger? Or was making finals enough?

That would be the Green and Bruce whose massive efforts got us into the 2000 GF, after a come from behind win against Carlton, in their debut season?

Or the Green and Bruce who were our most consistent players this year?

Or are you thinking of a different Geen and Bruce?

That would be the Green and Bruce whose massive efforts got us into the 2000 GF, after a come from behind win against Carlton, in their debut season?

Or the Green and Bruce who were our most consistent players this year?

Or are you thinking of a different Geen and Bruce?

Or the Green and Bruce who will battle out our B&F this week? So many dumb people on this forum. Can't see class when it's right in front of their eyes.

Or the Green and Bruce who will battle out our B&F this week? So many dumb people on this forum. Can't see class when it's right in front of their eyes.

My point was to use these players as an example! I dont know what Melb teams you watched in the final series fadeouts of 02,04,05,06 and in positions to finish in top 4 of all those years but always lost to lower rank teams which resulted in finishing 7th or 8th. All of our so called stars & leaders went missing!

Sure these players have class but you need something to trade to get something better and the Hawks took the a tough stance and traded to get good KPP players. What is the trade value of Bruce, Green, White, Robertson, Yze ect all from 2000 at the moment zero, 3-4 yrs ago their value was worth something. Good clubs trade when they are winning in order to maintian and achieve success!

That would be the Green and Bruce whose massive efforts got us into the 2000 GF, after a come from behind win against Carlton, in their debut season?

Or the Green and Bruce who were our most consistent players this year?

Or are you thinking of a different Geen and Bruce?

Or the Green and Bruce who will battle out our B&F this week? So many dumb people on this forum. Can't see class when it's right in front of their eyes.

Or the Green and Bruce who will be vice-captain and captain next year? Regardless of what you think of those players, they are not the kinds the Hawks traded. Nor were Yze or Robbo. The Hawks traded guys like Ryan Ferguson, Nathan Brown, Nathan Carroll and Clint Bizzell. They were also supremely lucky (or intelligent), that North Melbourne wanted to give up so much for Jonathan Hay. They were good at the trade table and lucky in the draft. They were also largely outplayed on Saturday by a team that could still easily win the next two Premierships. Let's not all blidly follow the Hawthorn method. Finding a way that works for us is what we need to do.

We need to either find a strength of ours (perhaps our back-line) and either accentuate it as much as possible in order to create an advantage great enough that we can consistently win games with it. Or we could trade weaker members of it to shore up other areas of our team that are not as strong, such as our forward-line.

Trading Green or Bruce for draft picks won't achieve anything. You need to trade players that aren't going to have a major influence with on-field leadership and success when they're gone.

Players like Colin Sylvia, Daniel Bell, Nathan Jones.

They are our most tradeable assets imho and I'd be willing to trade one or more of them for a pick in the 10-30 range this year and next.

! How many players are still around from 2000 GF loss?? Tough decisions needed to be after 2002 finals loss instead we tried to top up! How many Key position players did Daniher develop in 10 years?

only players left are ( minus this years retirees) are russell robertson and brad green thats all with bruce ,junior wheatley ,whelan not in the grand final side of that year

First thing we should do is try everything to get Todd Viiney back tto his Home. Toughen up our midfield. Trade hard and Tough at the Draft. Hawthorn are to be commended for what the last 5 years have done. We have gone backwards on & off the Field. ENOUGH. Get Tough Demons or DIE

White was AA when Jolly left, Yze was close to AA and missed the B+F by about 2 votes. Dees had made the finals and did for the next 2 seasons. I think deciding not to trade them away can be justified.

The Hawks won the Flag in 04 by making tough decisions and trading their players which had some trade value eg Thompson,Hay,Chic etc. Because they new that they couldnt win a flag with the current list.

What do we do we trade Jolly and keep White! Carlton wanted Yze we keep him. The players which had some trade value are now worthless! How many players are still around from 2000 GF loss?? Tough decisions needed to be after 2002 finals loss instead we tried to top up! How many Key position players did Daniher develop in 10 years?

Yes. Maybe after 2002, Danners was looking after "No.1" and not the best interests of the club, by topping up. But this is all in hindsight brock64. Did we all see this at halfway through the 2004 season? Halfway throught the 2005 season? 2006 season? Not really. It was never evident until after 2006.

Yes. Maybe after 2002, Danners was looking after "No.1" and not the best interests of the club, by topping up. But this is all in hindsight brock64. Did we all see this at halfway through the 2004 season? Halfway throught the 2005 season? 2006 season? Not really. It was never evident until after 2006.

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I know hindsight is very easy but as after 2004 fadeout and the fadeout oe 05 no tough calls were made on the more experience playing group because it was very clear they had a mental toughness issue.

This is in the past now so lets hope Bailey and his coaches look at long term fixes!

We failed to rebuild seduced by the possibility of an impending flag. Many clubs? get sucked in to this. Lets hope we learn from the past and the Geelong and Hawthorn bueprints.

This is exactly the difference between a REAL coach & an good ordinary one.

The Real one knows the right recipe instinctively, the other one will continue chasing shadows till his retirement.

White was AA when Jolly left, Yze was close to AA and missed the B+F by about 2 votes. Dees had made the finals and did for the next 2 seasons. I think deciding not to trade them away can be justified.

Neither of these players are or were Premiership type players as they played back then.

Yze has allways been a soft player who doesn't believe in defence or one percenters.

White ditto, he once took pack marks but got to the point of collecting cheap tricks, er, cheap kicks off HBF. He never crashed bodies or physically hurt the opposition players.

I too wanted to trade White back then, ah what could have been.

what ive been saying all along

i'm afraid some bloody tough decisions need to be made- but i can almost guarentee you they won't

i'm afraid some bloody tough decisions need to be made- but i can almost guarentee you they won't

And what would you call trading away Travis Johnstone for pick 14? What would you call dropping Yze (early in the season), Carroll (soon after) and White (half way through the season)? The wheels are in motion.

The Hawks won the Flag in 04 by making tough decisions and trading their players which had some trade value eg Thompson,Hay,Chic etc. Because they new that they couldnt win a flag with the current list.

They were also extremely well coached on Saturday. And Todd Viney is part of their coaching mix.

The good news for us is that Alastair Clarkson is a teaching coach. As is Dean Bailey. Hopefully DB's got some of the toughness and cunning of Clarkson too.