So let me get this straight, you went to the match, you saw Bruce's 21 possessions and you are now suggesting he had a good game?

Statistics will show his disposal was effective 76% of the time, statistics won't show the number of disposals that put teammates under pressure, the number of times he took the wrong option, and the number of times he chose not to man-up on his opponent. So he only turned the ball over 23% of the time, but that does not mean that for the rest of the time he made his possessions count.

Moloney, Yze, Sylvia and White are hardly the sort of players that one would aspire to compare to. Yze is selfish, White is on his last leg, Moloney is the greatest waster of disposals in Melbourne and Sylvia has done nothing in 5 seasons. As for Jones, when Bruce finds himself winning the contested ball 9 out of 10 times and is put under the same pressure that Jones is under, come back to me with their respective statistics (also when Bruce turns 20 again we can make the same comparison).

I know that because Yze_Magic started this thread, it's very tempting to refute his argument, however so far not one person has been able to argue with him because Bruce was terrible and his disposal and effectiveness has been terrible all season long, even if he is racking up double figure possessions... Godfrey used to as well you know. That he is a leader of this club only makes his glaring deficiencies harder to swallow.

He was named in the Herald Sun as one of our best. But you are allowed to disagree! Can you HONESTLY state that he was the sole reason for our poor game today? Can you HONESTLY say he doesn't run his guts out in his endeavours? Why do certain bashers point the finger at Cam every time we have a bad day? It is blatantly unfair and unfounded. Did you bother to read 'Mick 2007' facts on Bruce this season? By the way, living in Perth made it a bit hard to be at the game but I watched the whole match on foxtel. (Delayed telecast). Don't you think you get a much better view of the game on TV compared to being at the game? You do miss a

lot when the ball is far,far away. Maybe that happened to you today. (Assuming you went of course!). You are a quiet Bruce knocker aren't you?

What inspiration is Bruce showing as a senior player and a captain? Its ok to run around and get a few possesions but where is he when the boys need to be rallyed?

He was named in the Herald Sun as one of our best. But you are allowed to disagree! Can you HONESTLY state that he was the sole reason for our poor game today? Can you HONESTLY say he doesn't run his guts out in his endeavours? Why do certain bashers point the finger at Cam every time we have a bad day? It is blatantly unfair and unfounded. Did you bother to read 'Mick 2007' facts on Bruce this season? By the way, living in Perth made it a bit hard to be at the game but I watched the whole match on foxtel. (Delayed telecast). Don't you think you get a much better view of the game on TV compared to being at the game? You do miss a

lot when the ball is far,far away. Maybe that happened to you today. (Assuming you went of course!). You are a quiet Bruce knocker aren't you?

The Herald Sun's credibility is up there with Jeff Kennet's. The idiot who wrote the match report probably looked at the stats and listed the top 5 possession getters in the best. Statistics don't impress me, when I go to games and see with my very own eyes the number of poor decisions made by senior leadership. The number of miss-kicks, the number of dodgy handballs that result in teammates being driven into the hard turf of Telstra Dome. Jeff White is up there for hit outs this year, and yet his output this season has been pretty unimpressive. Garland probably only gets a handful of possessions a game, but has only conceded 8 goals this season. So you tell me just what the stat sheets really tell us.

As I said, Bruce certainly racks them up. There is never and has never been an issue of him not finding the ball. And he has fantastic endurance, which allows him to run all day. Again, this has never been in dispute.

However, his skills are just not up to scratch, and if it's ok for supporters to blast the likes of Miller, Jamar, Bell and Bartram, who combined have played less games than Bruce, than why shouldn't we raise this issue when it concerns Bruce? As the captain of this football club it is his responsibility to lead the way with his attack on the ball and his disposable. Statistics won't show you that when we're struggling, Bruce is not found on the bottom of packs getting the hard balls. Statistics will show that yes, he got 21 touches today, but let me tell you his influence on the match equaled that of the umpire of gave Luke Ball 7 free kicks. I saw it with my own eyes, and the dozens of Melbourne supporters around me felt the same way. At his age, he is unlikely to ever part-take in an MFC premiership, and it is therefore time to cut our losses and move on.

Having said all that, he is certainly not alone in the 'move on' basket.

i would accept a first or second round draft pick for him.

that would give us 4 top 20 picks...add that to 3 top 20 picks last yr + Bate,Mclean,Sylvia,Bartram,Garland,Wonaeamirii,Jones and Frawley and we might actually start getting some talent into our team

He's a good footballer... trouble is we don't need good footballers that are going to turn 30 next year.

Look at Ooze... His decline has been such that he has done next to nothing for YEARS now. If we can trade Bruce for something like a second-rounder or better then that is CERTAINLY the way to go for the club...

It's such a shame that he won't get that though... His footy just hasn't been good enough...

Agree. Bruce, wow. Not the reasons we lost, no one ever says he is, yet those blind bruce believers who follow in his every footstep will take in criticism of him as being as such.

Not a leader, not a good disposer, and not a part of our future, where does that leave him?

Cam Bruce as captain epitomizes everything that is wrong with the MFC. We are a laughing stock

Not a leader, not a good disposer, and not a part of our future, where does that leave him?

Probably true on all counts, but he is under contract, and ......... Probably half the list is not part of the future in the sense of a winning future.

But I repeat, he is under contract for 2/3? more years?

Moan all you like, but that's it. Also, I happen to rate Bruce; not a gun, but a good player and that's as good as MFC has at present. We have no players who can turn a game on their own. No guns!

About $'s? Yeah sure, Bruce is over paid (as is most of our list), but so are the bomber's and tigers and freos' lists.

Some time go, I suggested they all donate their after tax pay for efforts like today. No-one seemed to like the idea. And I'd add the coaches to the donaters, incl Neitz.

Cam Bruce as captain epitomizes everything that is wrong with the MFC. We are a laughing stock

Do you mean hesitant, lacking leadership, lacking skill .........? Yeah sure. So why pick on Bruce? This is all true, from the coaches down.

Bruce is co-captain, chosen from 'leadership group' that as elected by players. Don't like that, then tell Bailey; he's the one who set it all up.

As Do it for Robbie said, it EPITOMIZES everything that is wrong, being that he is an emblem, a statement, a signifier for all that is wrong. Therefore, if you agree that he lacks skill, leadership and is hesitant, then you agree with his statement and you should apologise for challenging it

As Do it for Robbie said, it EPITOMIZES everything that is wrong, being that he is an emblem, a statement, a signifier for all that is wrong. Therefore, if you agree that he lacks skill, leadership and is hesitant, then you agree with his statement and you should apologise for challenging it

I am not necessarily challenging it, just the singling out of Bruce. Maybe he should start a new topic: All that is wrong with MFC.

Cam Bruce as captain epitomizes everything that is wrong with the MFC. We are a laughing stock

He was ELECTED into co-captaincy by the players. So blame THEM since according to you, they don't know his abilities and leadership skills as well as you and his other critics do. Do you know him personally? James McDonald hasn't been setting the world on fire this year but do you question HIS leadership capabilities? No it all falls back on scapegoat Bruce. You are the laughing stock making statements like that.

A simple evalutaon of CM's effectiveness ( not his stats..stats are useless) is that invariably he cant kick to position and Id hate to be on the end of what he lauighingly calls a handpass. His set shots have picked up this year. For a supposedly 'gun' player he he leave a lot to be desired.!!. Id be happy if he rreturned to his brownlow fav days..but I doubt thats going to happen . I think he was hitting above his weight then. We see the real him now. Much in the sane way Hannabal sized up Brocky I think with rose coloured glasses dispensed with folks, you are forced to ajudge Bruce similarly.

Id happily se the back of him but we actually need his occasional 'glimpses' now. He can tag well on a good day..at least that!!

He was ELECTED into co-captaincy by the players. So blame THEM since according to you, they don't know his abilities and leadership skills as well as you and his other critics do. Do you know him personally? James McDonald hasn't been setting the world on fire this year but do you question HIS leadership capabilities? No it all falls back on scapegoat Bruce. You are the laughing stock making statements like that.

Our players wouldn't know a leader if he smacked them in the head.

Seriously, look at who made it into the leadership group (Bruce, Yze) and who didn't (Green, Jones, Rivers).

This in itself is a whole separate issue, which still does not change the fact that Bruce (who regardless of contract status can still be traded Mono!) is no longer skilled enough to be an integral part of our future.

So let me get this straight, you went to the match, you saw Bruce's 21 possessions and you are now suggesting he had a good game?

Statistics will show his disposal was effective 76% of the time, statistics won't show the number of disposals that put teammates under pressure, the number of times he took the wrong option, and the number of times he chose not to man-up on his opponent. So he only turned the ball over 23% of the time, but that does not mean that for the rest of the time he made his possessions count.

Exactly! As far as I know an effective disposal is one which hits a target (please correct if wrong). On that basis, Bruce often is 'effective' in his disposal. However 'effective' does not count those that are ridiculously stupid given the target's situation. Plus, for someone of his experience, and being a 'leader', he shouldn't be turning the ball over 23% of the time. IMO thats bad enough.

As has been mentioned, Bruce shouldn't be in the leadership group; compounded by Green's absence from it.

Let's be honest though, he wasn't the only one to put teammates under pressure yesterday; someone (Warnock maybe) handpassed to Green at fullback in the first quarter which led to a Schneider goal.

Our players wouldn't know a leader if he smacked them in the head.

Seriously, look at who made it into the leadership group (Bruce, Yze) and who didn't (Green, Jones, Rivers).

This in itself is a whole separate issue, which still does not change the fact that Bruce (who regardless of contract status can still be traded Mono!) is no longer skilled enough to be an integral part of our future.

Jaded u talk dribble

the fact is they they are voted by the players and obviously means somethin to them ...

RIVERS who? he plays about as many games as yze and jones is a baby.

as for bruce u commmented on how poor poor brock mclean was left to do all the clearences himself yesterday, bruce had more clearances than him......... ?

i think u need a break from these forums your more and more starting to sound like those who dont strop throwing the most overused football terms over and over again

"not part of the future" "unaccountable" "will never play in a premiership side" " not hard enough"

give us all a break get somthing new ... and that goes for all u bruce baggers....

if he gets traded so be it fair enough.... but unfair treatment isnt

This in itself is a whole separate issue, which still does not change the fact that Bruce (who regardless of contract status can still be traded Mono!) is no longer skilled enough to be an integral part of our future.

Yes I know. But

1. he has to agree to go

2. and if he does, with 2 or 3 years of contract to go, I'd bet we'll be up for lots of his $'s for those future years

(Rather wish we still had Ferguson - he knocked back a bid by Hawthorn, didn't want to move. Bet he wishes he had his time over; but I digress.)

But I agree, his skill level is low, and getting lower.

Football is a team effort, when everyone plays well the team will get the results, getting rid of Bruce won't solve any problems, Did getting rid of Woewodin or Johnstone make the side any better, fark no.

Interestingly, Cameron Bruce was named best in Herald Sun, and best by both coaches (10 votes) - FC. I noticed in Demonland Voting he was down in the pecking order. Are we at Demonland underestimating him? He's fifth in the overall Demonland votes. But I thought he might of got some 5 and 6 votes, but instead got 2's and 3's.

I think he might be a chance in the B&F.

Just an observation regarding he's B&F chances.

Interestingly, Cameron Bruce was named best in Herald Sun, and best by both coaches (10 votes) - FC. I noticed in Demonland Voting he was down in the pecking order. Are we at Demonland underestimating him? He's fifth in the overall Demonland votes. But I thought he might of got some 5 and 6 votes, but instead got 2's and 3's.

I think he might be a chance in the B&F.

Just an observation regarding he's B&F chances.

He got my 6 votes. I thought he was great. As good as Morton was, Brucie was better. It's just because he's older that we don't all jizz in our pants when he puts in a good one.

He was ELECTED into co-captaincy by the players. So blame THEM since according to you, they don't know his abilities and leadership skills as well as you and his other critics do. Do you know him personally? James McDonald hasn't been setting the world on fire this year but do you question HIS leadership capabilities? No it all falls back on scapegoat Bruce. You are the laughing stock making statements like that.

You don't have to set the world on fire as a leader, but you must set an example of doing the hard things like putting your head down over the ball at every necessary occaision.

I sawe bruce do it against the Cats the other week, just about the first time I have ever seen him do that in his outside carreer.

Interestingly, Cameron Bruce was named best in Herald Sun, and best by both coaches (10 votes) - FC. I noticed in Demonland Voting he was down in the pecking order. Are we at Demonland underestimating him? He's fifth in the overall Demonland votes. But I thought he might of got some 5 and 6 votes, but instead got 2's and 3's.

I think he might be a chance in the B&F.

Just an observation regarding he's B&F chances.

He plays an intellectual game, but rarely a physical one. He gets to the right positions on the ground & follows instructions well, & a lot of easy ball. thats fine as long as he goes in 7 risks his body like we expect the others to do, if not, he's not a captains jockstrap.

I think he might be a chance in the B&F.

Can you imagine Yze_Magic if Bruce actually wins the B & F!!!

The closest player we have to an "A Grader". Would be there if not for his questionable kicking and his inability to kick his 1 or 2 goals each week.

I dont want him delisted, i think he still has plenty to offer. HF link up with odd run in the midfield type player.

I just believe the captain has to be a leader of men. The guy that puts his body on the line at every oppourtunity.

Sets the tone.

Unfortunately Cam has learn`t the art of avoiding the contest and hey, with his injuries and build it`s probably a good idea.

You just can`t expect the young blokes to always GO if their leaders arn`t

The captaincy should be taken out nof the players hands. It`s not a popularity contest.

IMO it`s the coaches job

I thought he played well on the weekend and hope he keeps it up.

But seriously whats going on with his hair.

It`s starting to look really wrong.

Needs a makeover.