sue

The inducement to stage is doubled by the thought that your getting a totally undeserved free will lead to an opponent lifting their arms (or rolling their eyes) and you'll get 50m as well.

So blatant staging is showing respect to umpires now.

Another person who is not happy: https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/stricter-respect-rules-putting-more-pressure-on-umpires-goldspink-20220419-p5aeir.html Goldspink is in “no doubt” that respect towards umpires has improved since his time in the job, and he does not classify a player putting his arms in the air as dissent or abuse. He also felt Hawthorn players were justified in expressing their disapproval of the dubious in-the-back free kick that Geelong forward Tom Hawkins received on Easter Monday. “That decision was terrible,” he said.

You can go ahead and mouth off whenever a 50m penalty is given within the 50m arc. Though I'm sure the AFL will wise up to that and allow the umps to award a second kick at goal from zero metres out.

Don’t look for offence where none was meant. I simply meant that you will continued to be annoyed by forums being full of criticisms of umpire decisions even if the players behave as you wish.

Even if the players kept their emotions totally bottled up, this forum and most footy discussions would be full of stuff about umpiring decisions. More so than other sports because of the vague ill defined rules and other obvious factors. So don’t think the new abuse ‘rule’ will save you.

I think it has been proven by the AFL review. I obviously disagree with you on this matter but I spend little time complaining about umpires and certainly do not label them as cheats. But I can still be critical though most of that is directed at the AFL not the individual umps.

That is laughable. You have repeatedly stated that abuse is the cause of lack of junior umpires. Yet when presented with the AFL Review showing abuse is not the main problem, you invoke Trump's polls. I can see why some would be embarrassed to admit to supporting Trump's policies, but why should ex-umpires be shy about complaiining about the abuse.

What else is it but 'breaking point' if you are constrained by penalities if you do something and you do it anyway . Rather than pick on words, address the fact that your stats were misleading.

Dubious use of stats. When you get a Hawkins dive, more than one player has their emotional constraints tested to breaking point. Given the way play is these days with lots of players near the ball, you are seriously underestimating the numbers.

Here is a report on the reasons for lack of umpires commissioned by the AFL in 2021. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-12/afl-umpire-shortage-in-community-australian-rules/100903628 Looks like abuse is the 8th (yes, eighth) biggest reason at 6% Work and study commitments (18 per cent) Health/injury/age related (14 per cent) Inadequate support/pay (13 per cent) Lack of enjoyment (10 per cent) Abuse, at 6 per cent, was eighth on the list and half of inadequate support and pay (which is the one thing the AFL could actually fix). Even if you argue the lack of enjoyment is entirely due to abuse (which is a dubious assumption) and should be added to the 6%, it is still not dominant. Read that article and you will see all sorts of reasons for the lack of umpires, including a big drop off due to Covid possiby causing the AFL to hit the panic button. So what is the point of all this over-reaction about abuse? The AFL finds it easier to fiddle with the rules than do anything that requires some hard work.

That's one of the many problems with this. With most frees and other 50m penalties, the spectator has some basis on which to form an opinion (however wrong) on why it was paid or not.

The basic difference bewteen the 2 sides in this debate is that some of us do not see what is wrong with telling everyone that you think the umpire is wrong as long as you don't do it abusively. I don't feel disrespected when you disagree on this with me, and I trust you feel the same. At bottom the only argument for stamping all emotion out of it seems to be that we can't recruit junior umpires because they get abused. Has the AFL examined all ways of fixing that? Or even respecting senior umpires by paying them like they pay themselves at Head Office? No, they have put bugger-all effort into junior footy because there is no short-term money in it.

My apologies if circular is not be exactly the right word, but you said the junior umps had to do 3 to 4 matches per weekend. I was simply saying if we had the missing 6000 umpires, they would not have to do so many matches each. So you were being inconsistent/circular/over-egging the problem/whatever is the right word for the logical error you were making. Nothing to do with rocket science or rot or indeed the issue.

I don't know enough about the age profiles of junior to more senior umpires, and thus what the wage scale should be to be attractive at each level, but I reckon a lot of young kids would be keen to get $500 or less. And your argument is circular - if we had the 6000 missing umpires, no one would need to umpire 3-4 games per weekend. As for starting at the top, how about the AFL showing some respect to umpires by paying them professionally FT. The abuse from parents can be dealt by other means, eg. if you abuse an umpire, your kid is suspended for the day, week whatever. Sadly the AFL can't improve the weather.

And maybe they could show their respect of umpires by paying them properly! They could even pay $500 a year to all those 6000 missing junior umpires by taking a few paycuts.

You are probably right that the players can in time be terrified into almost any behaviour by penalising the team. But arguing with the ump is not the same as expressing disagreement/frustration or asking for clarification in a non-abusive way. But that is what the AFL's 'rules' are trying to equate. And umps will still be abused by the crowd. Only more so if players get 50m penalities for rolling their eyes. If this is all driven by the lack of junior umpires, how about making umpiring a career path by paying them generously at many levels. Young kids who can run but know they will never be good players will be attracted to the possibility of making it in the bigger leagues as umpires. Good luck getting umps to judge all those distances. They have enough trouble with 15m. (Sorry, that was disrespectful.) 25m and 50m makes sense.

An excellent point.

My use of the term 'arm raising' was just shorthand to describe reactions to an umpire's decision or non-decision that is non-abusive. You have been consistently using the term abuse to cover any reaction at all by a player. Hence my 'yet again'. One can disagree without being abusive in life and on the sports field too.

Yet again you conflate things like arm raising with abuse. Everyone here seems to be against abuse. Some of us see a big gap between raising arms or rolling eyes and abuse. Making them equivalent makes umpires look ridiculous which is hardly a recipe for increasing respect.

I don’t recall anyone here supporting umpire abuse. I disagree with you on this. My arms are wide out and I’m rolling my eyes. I hope you don’t feel abused.

Is it dissent/umpire disrespect to call for a free when the umpire has ruled there was none? A ball comes off a Hawthorn player's boot and goes out. Umpire calls for a throw in, but Geelong player takes the ball and steps back to take position for a DOB free. Obviously disagreeing with the umpire's decision. In fact the AFL could argue that any indication that a free should be paid to a player's team is disrespecting the umpire or seeking to bully him.

At one point a free was paid to Hawks and it looked to me like Hawkins started mouthing off to the umpire but quickly turned his head to a seemingly random Hawthorn player. A cunning bastard.

Thanks to the AFL

What a farce.