"We aren't great at any phase of the game"

[Dee-tonator 246]

On 20/12/2024 at 12:45, Tarax Club said:

Recent scenes a Gosch's give cause for optimism.

These appear to be Collingwood cows. No wonder they look overweight and undisciplined.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,287]

I don't think anyone would argue that we struggled in all phases last year. I hope 2024 will be seen as "the year we had to have" to be a bit of a wake up call for the club and Goodwin because had we won an extra won or two for those close games and snuck into finals I feel they would have thought "we're not far off" especially with the Petracca/Oliver injuries.

The reality is we are a ways off but it is not irredeemable if we shift our focus. I think we still have the players but the game plan needs upheaval and we need to shift some of the focus (eg putting more reliance on some of the up and comers and not the veterans like Viney, Max, May etc).

2025 will be a very interesting season for us, if we get off to a poor start Goodwin will be on the chopping block. Last time I thought that was 2021 and it worked out ok. The reshuffling of the FD has been a good thing and should bring fresh ideas, I would've liked to see Richo moved on but he is there and obviously has the respect of those in the club or he wouldn't have lasted so long. A fit Petracca and Oliver (both of them physically and mentally) and a greater focus on attack could see us rebound quickly. If we continue with the boring, stagnant, down the line, conservative footy we will end up in a similar position to 2024.

[Tarax Club 3,958]

9 hours ago, Dee-tonator said:

These appear to be Collingwood cows. No wonder they look overweight and undisciplined.

DT you appear to be under a common misapprehension. Those are Holstein - Frieslans not a guernsey to be seen. 

 

 

[dpositive 1,680]

I reckon we need a number of different approaches to the game.

The way to beat Brisbane is different to the way to beat Geelong and different to the way to beat footscray.

I also think we have an excellent squad that can give the flexibility to field a team suited to each opposition.

This can also allow us to rest those that will benefit from that and give experience to those that need that. 

I think the coaching team are really on top of the job and Richardson expreseed that really well at the AGM.

Im looking forward to a positive year.

[kev martin 10,409]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 I don't think anyone would argue that we struggled in all phases last year.

I'll bite, though I only saw the first half of our year, the rest I listened to on a radio.

So you talk about the phases being, with ball, without ball and the contested.

We are generally better than average in the League for disposals (getting ball), clangers (use of ball) and tackles and contest . Here are some statistical arguments.

Quote from:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2023s.html

MFC:

9183 disposals for, only 4 others with more. 8911 disposals against, 9 others with less.

Pretty good at getting the ball, average for stopping the other getting it.

Clangers 945, 8 others had more (average), others teams against, had 894. 5th on list. (Below average). Other teams are better at using ball against us. Perhaps because they try not to bomb into our backline. 

1530 tackles 5 had more. 1536 against 2 had more. We tackle more but get tackeld more. In plenty of contest.

3654 contested possessions, only two higher. 3399 against, 6 had more. We get the ball.

The "We aren't great at any phase of the game", fugazi.

We didn't make finals so have less opportunities for higher numbers than those that played in them.

Edited 7 hours ago by kev martin

[Lucifers Hero 40,358]

12 minutes ago, kev martin said:

The "We aren't great at any phase of the game", fugazi.

That quote wasn't a media clickbait headline.

It wasn't a throw away line by Goodwin at a press conf; he said it at the AGM which isn't a forum for flippancy. 

imv we need to accept it as correct.

Edited 7 hours ago by Lucifers Hero

[kev martin 10,409]

4 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

That quote isn't a media clickbait headline.

Our coach said it the AGM.  imv we need to accept it as correct.

I thought this topic and that no one can argue against the proposition, was click bait, and Goody's line was Fugazi.

Edited 7 hours ago by kev martin

[Fanatique Demon 2,653]

The key word is “great”. We might be good at some aspects and average or below average at others. SG wants great. And that’s great. 

[Lucifers Hero 40,358]

1 minute ago, kev martin said:

I thought this topic and that no one can argue against the proposition, was click bait, and Goody's line was Fugazi.

Fair enough.  One of the rare times we see things a bit differently, kev.

[kev martin 10,409]

20 minutes ago, Fanatique Demon said:

The key word is “great”. We might be good at some aspects and average or below average at others. SG wants great. And that’s great. 

I interpreted "great" as sarcasm, not high expectations. 

So, we are above average at all phases of the game, but not the best?

Many have been expressing, doom and gloom about the topic.

I think we have been a good side for several seasons, and the shortcomings and our tests, will be in the finals series.

Edited 7 hours ago by kev martin

[Dr. Gonzo 24,287]

34 minutes ago, kev martin said:

I'll bite, though I only saw the first half of our year, the rest I listened to on a radio.

So you talk about the phases being, with ball, without ball and the contested.

We are generally better than average in the League for disposals (getting ball), clangers (use of ball) and tackles and contest . Here are some statistical arguments.

Quote from:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2023s.html

MFC:

9183 disposals for, only 4 others with more. 8911 disposals against, 9 others with less.

Pretty good at getting the ball, average for stopping the other getting it.

Clangers 945, 8 others had more (average), others teams against, had 894. 5th on list. (Below average). Other teams are better at using ball against us. Perhaps because they try not to bomb into our backline. 

1530 tackles 5 had more. 1536 against 2 had more. We tackle more but get tackeld more. In plenty of contest.

3654 contested possessions, only two higher. 3399 against, 6 had more. We get the ball.

The "We aren't great at any phase of the game", fugazi.

We didn't make finals so have less opportunities for higher numbers than those that played in them.

It's not just getting the ball, it's how you use it.

[kev martin 10,409]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's not just getting the ball, it's how you use it.

We were average with clangers. 

If it is about game style, we became the hunted and teams set themselves against us.

Goody has been a great innovator (in my opinion), I can see him doing that again. His problem IMO, is he is slow to adapt the kind of play within a quarter, and gives the momentum to the other team. Proud about his strategies and reluctant/slow at tweeking them, when being beaten.

Did we struggle at all phases of the game? I believe we were above average.

Edited 6 hours ago by kev martin

[Dr. Gonzo 24,287]

18 minutes ago, kev martin said:

We were average with clangers. 

If it is about game style, we became the hunted and teams set themselves against us.

Goody has been a great innovator (in my opinion), I can see him doing that again. His problem IMO, is he is slow to adapt the kind of play within a quarter, and gives the momentum to the other team. Proud about his strategies and reluctant/slow at tweeking them, when being beaten.

Did we struggle at all phases of the game? I believe we were above average.

How are "clangers" measured?

We play conservatively with the footy which makes the stats look ok but when you watch the game you can see we are not great at moving the footy/attack.

BTW we haven't been the hunted since about mid-2022. Teams don't set themselves against us, they know how to beat us and play accordingly.

Edited 6 hours ago by Dr. Gonzo

[Tolstoys Nudge 1,734]

On 20/12/2024 at 11:01, Rednblueriseing said:

Is this fixable in 1 off season or are we delusional thinking we can make the 8 with aging stars ?

Aging stars? That’s a bit rough 

[Tolstoys Nudge 1,734]

A Clanger is — An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side.

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How are "clangers" measured?

We play conservatively with the footy which makes the stats look ok but when you watch the game you can see we are not great at moving the footy/attack.

BTW we haven't been the hunted since about mid-2022. Teams don't set themselves against us, they know how to beat us and play accordingly.

 

[DistrACTION Jackson 9,224]

2 minutes ago, Tolstoys Nudge said:

Aging stars? That’s a bit rough 

Our ‘ageing’ stars are no different to a lot of other sides trying to contend. Lions have Neale, Cameron, Zorko all over 30. Collingwood have a heap of over 30s. Cats have Stewart, Danger, Cameron all over 30.

[kev martin 10,409]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How are "clangers" measured?

We play conservatively with the footy which makes the stats look ok but when you watch the game you can see we are not great at moving the footy/attack.

Not sure, I am not a statistician. I was presenting an argument to our "struggle in phases".

I think the problem was, others set their game against our style. Therefore, our bombs into our forward line didn't work as we couldn't lock the ball down in there. The other team got out quickly or with the short dinky, efficient kicks. The backline intercepts were the same, they were reluctant to kick the ball down the line and had to use the dinky/efficient/fast style to do us. 

Moving the ball is an interesting aspect. Has to be one that is continually in flux as they adapt to how the game is going, tempo, momentum, not working, predictable, etcetera. 

I believe the onus was on Goody and the on-field leaders, to read the tea leaves, which is not related to our basic skill level. Making the statement,  "We aren't great at any phase of the game", is blame shifting and Goody putting the onus on players. I reckon we have the players the will, but our style and its adapt ability is my assessment of why we didn't make finals.

Big year for Goody, if we fail he may not be able to hide.

Edited 5 hours ago by kev martin

[DiscoStu17 788]

12 hours ago, Dee-tonator said:

These appear to be Collingwood cows. No wonder they look overweight and undisciplined.

Yes

I thought I saw Darcy Moo-er kicking another cow. 

[DiscoStu17 788]

Can’t remember what phase Goody was talking about now – always thought it was we’ve got it, they’ve got it, or it’s in dispute.

Our contest has been strong for a while now. A game style that minimises damage from turnovers is obviously required, as the high contest game will naturally produce more turnovers/clangers.

But

With a fit Tracc Clarrie back...
Kick it up to Roo. 
They should get flag number 2. 
(out of the last 5)

I’ll see myself out…..
 

[Tarax Club 3,958]

59 minutes ago, DiscoStu17 said:

Yes

I thought I saw Darcy Moo-er kicking another cow. 

Some cows are cows.

[rpfc 28,768]

1 hour ago, kev martin said:

Not sure, I am not a statistician. I was presenting an argument to our "struggle in phases".

I think the problem was, others set their game against our style. Therefore, our bombs into our forward line didn't work as we couldn't lock the ball down in there. The other team got out quickly or with the short dinky, efficient kicks. The backline intercepts were the same, they were reluctant to kick the ball down the line and had to use the dinky/efficient/fast style to do us. 

Moving the ball is an interesting aspect. Has to be one that is continually in flux as they adapt to how the game is going, tempo, momentum, not working, predictable, etcetera. 

I believe the onus was on Goody and the on-field leaders, to read the tea leaves, which is not related to our basic skill level. Making the statement,  "We aren't great at any phase of the game", is blame shifting and Goody putting the onus on players. I reckon we have the players the will, but our style and its adapt ability is my assessment of why we didn't make finals.

Big year for Goody, if we fail he may not be able to hide.

Winning contested footy is not the outcome that you should worry too heavily about; it’s score after the contest, clearance. We were much better previous to 2024.

I don’t see this as shifting blame from Goodwin, he is in charge. And ultimately, the players are the ones that are going to slow down and hit a target, or work collectively to win a contest and get the ball forward to advantage to score.

[Demon Disciple 12,272]

I’d prefer us to be good in all aspects of the game, than great in some and average in others, as it’s the weakest part of the game that breaks down first.

 

[Ugottobekidding 1,194]

Goodwin only has himself to blame.

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,864]

There's a group of us that meet at a cafe in Fyshwick and talk footy every week. I read the quote from Goody to them. We all had to wipe our eyes with the serviettes provided. One bloke is still ROTFL.

[deespicable me 1,490]

I would like the Coaching crew to spend more time on opposition scouting. ie looking at games coming up and how to play those games, who to try and shut down, how to restrict their movement or free us up to play the way we want to.

Back in 2020 and 2021 and the first half of 2022 it was all about getting the game on our terms. If we did that we would often / always win. 

It's different now as teams feel they have us beaten, they get the game on their terms and we can't shut them down or change the game to our advantage. Fremantle, Collingwood and Brisbane are three obvious examples. I would like to see us with more tactics to get back at some of the teams that have seemingly gone past us. 

Unless we change how we go about it I don't think we can beat those sides and that becomes your seasons death knell.

We play Lions (away Round 10), Freo (at the MCG Round 6) and Collingwood (MCG Round 13 and again Round 24) . I agree every game is important and we need to be winning a lot of our games, but those three games in the first 13 rounds will be critical to our self belief for season 2025. I hope we don't just roll out the same lame stuff as this year.