How are the development of our players tracking? I’m talking the 1st-3rd year players.

Windsor

Jefferson

Van Rooyen

Tholstrup

Lindsay

Langford

I’m big on development and I like the development of Disco Turner and Howes who are more than capable at senior level. Lindsay has shown he is capable at times, and Langford is doing well so far - both regular gigs at senior level. Harvey needs to work on his right side - handball and kicking. It’s a huge weakness and he has been found out. It was also most evident with his right hand in the SFS handball competition - he barely hit the board. Embarrassing.

Windsor hasn’t progressed on from last season to be fair has been tried in different position. Van Rooyen has been in and out of team after a number of omissions, so too 2nd year Tholstrup. And Jefferson fees like he has been ‘developing’ at Casey for an eternity.

I won’t mention Laurie, because I think the club know where he is at.

How do we rate the performance of our assistant coaches ?

They all need to take responsibility for poor performances such as the 1st quarter against Gold Coast. They weren’t prepared or ready.

Whilst they can take a few positives on board such as doing their homework v Brisbane at the Gabba and Kings Birthday - to have results like those and yet have such abysmal displays like Port, StKilda and now GC - tells you they’re not getting their preparations and homework right.

Our 1st quarter analysis for the year …?

It’s important in games to get off to a good start or at least a break even start. Just as important is to not get flogged and get put on the back foot. Too many times this season - we haven’t shown up. The buck stops with the coaches here. Not just the players.

Whilst Goodwin is contracted to the end of 2026, the club needs to be proactive behind the scenes and doing their due diligence - looking after the shareholders of the club - its members.

Failing this - it is a lack of governance. So even though Brad Green is the interim President, even though he may be “chummy” with Simon, even though he publicly acknowledges that SG is our “only living Premiership coach, and should be held in high respect” … he should not be immune from criticism when it comes to the performance of the team.

We’ve had an easier fixture this season and failed to make finals already with still 7-8 games remaining.

We’ve had many undisciplined acts on the field, leading to costly 50m penalties. Poor accuracy in front of goal.

The best teams maintain good discipline, through strong leadership and strong coaching. It’s that simple.

3 hours ago, Adam The God said:

Posters, myself included, talk about mental fatigue, but it's one of many factors, just as learning a new zonal system.

I noted on AFL360 while I was in the pub that we're the number ball movement team in the competition. It's a marked shift in the way we play.

IMV, not enough emphasis is placed on this shift in the way we're trying to play. This also explains teething issues, but I've outlined my position now on the rest of the season.

I don't understand why you're quoting me regarding your first paragraph. I was simply pointing to where much of the conversation on here has strayed to over the past four years and that I disagree with a lot of it. Maybe let's leave it.

As far as your last paragraph goes, you're missing out again the most important factor in why we haven't been able to shift and why there are teething issues. It goes further than an 'ability or time to learn'. It's about execution. And again it comes back to our list. We simply don't possess enough attributes across the board to execute the type of game required to compete with the best sides. And as we've seen, if out contest and pressure isn't present against lower rung sides, we are also in trouble. That is entirely on Goodwin. Hasn't made the right calls or the calls he has made have been the same ones netting us the same result, the same predictable outcomes and the same types of losses.

How many more times are we going to hear that our inefficiency cost us a game? And how many more times from Goodwin are we going to hear that 'we're working incredibly hard on it and the results will come', all the while playing and trusting the same group of core players who are the reason behind it all?

On 01/07/2025 at 14:35, ElDiablo14 said:

Have we been consistent under Goodwin?

If you really dissect his tenure, it really feels like a roller coaster of highs and lows. Fun ride not gonna lie.

Apart from the obvious 2021 I think most of his seasons have ended up being consistently disappointing and frustrating.

Lots of the current issues have been festering for years.

Inaccuracy

Butchering the ball by midfielders

Obsession with territorial dominance over goalscoring

Crazy trading

Lack of skilled forwards

On 01/07/2025 at 16:20, Sir Why You Little said:

No it’s not fitness as such. Last week proved that. After a bye, we were served up that rubbish.

It’s 90% above the shoulders. These guys can play at a high level, they just don’t feel like giving that extra 1-2% that the Top 4 Teams do regularly

That has got to come back to the Coach when it is across the whole team

On 01/07/2025 at 16:14, Red But Mostly Blue said:

I agree with the fitness, but am also concerned about the coma we appeared to be in at the start of some of the games this year. Case in point the last game against the Suns. That does not come down to fitness, and we came off a bye! I don't think we are fit, but I also don't think we're mind fit, either.

Last week seemed like another example where the players just couldn't be arsed. Petty was one of the few trying to get stuck in. Only the QT bollocking by Maxy seemed to spur them into action.

They didn't seem bothered by going 4-5 goals down and didn't arrive on the field motivated and prepared by whatever the coaches had said and done beforehand. I thought this was especially true of some of the senior and highest paid players in the first quarter, a couple of whom are still deplorable kicks and turnover merchants.

That same nagging suspicion was there in the start of this season; that a number of players want a change of coaches and weren't fully committed to the message or gameplan or the boss. That feeling was back in force in the first quarter versus the suns: Lose the game, but make it look like a half decent effort. Pathetic.

I was so angry in the third quarter that for the family's peace and wellbeing I switched it off. Then I went out to my shed to do something positive and work on a little woodwork project.

Edited Wednesday at 15:213 days by Hellfire Dub
Spelling

9 hours ago, Demonsone said:

Our strategy since Jackson left is a key area of our problems, Grundy failed, Fullerton hasn’t worked & Campbell hasn’t played a game, What’s JVR role confusion for the kid & impacting his development

Something in what you say there 👍

Time to clear out Goody and his coaching panel.

Time to cut the list deep. Trac, Oliver, May, Fritta, Lever all in the equation. Plus all the 2-4 year fringe players who are not up to it.

Bring in some leaders from other clubs.

Plan for a 2027-28 rise.

9 hours ago, H_T said:

How are the development of our players tracking? I’m talking the 1st-3rd year players.

Windsor

Jefferson

Van Rooyen

Tholstrup

Lindsay

Langford

I’m big on development and I like the development of Disco Turner and Howes who are more than capable at senior level. Lindsay has shown he is capable at times, and Langford is doing well so far - both regular gigs at senior level. Harvey needs to work on his right side - handball and kicking. It’s a huge weakness and he has been found out. It was also most evident with his right hand in the SFS handball competition - he barely hit the board. Embarrassing.

Windsor hasn’t progressed on from last season to be fair has been tried in different position. Van Rooyen has been in and out of team after a number of omissions, so too 2nd year Tholstrup. And Jefferson fees like he has been ‘developing’ at Casey for an eternity.

I won’t mention Laurie, because I think the club know where he is at.

How do we rate the performance of our assistant coaches ?

They all need to take responsibility for poor performances such as the 1st quarter against Gold Coast. They weren’t prepared or ready.

Whilst they can take a few positives on board such as doing their homework v Brisbane at the Gabba and Kings Birthday - to have results like those and yet have such abysmal displays like Port, StKilda and now GC - tells you they’re not getting their preparations and homework right.

Our 1st quarter analysis for the year …?

It’s important in games to get off to a good start or at least a break even start. Just as important is to not get flogged and get put on the back foot. Too many times this season - we haven’t shown up. The buck stops with the coaches here. Not just the players.

Whilst Goodwin is contracted to the end of 2026, the club needs to be proactive behind the scenes and doing their due diligence - looking after the shareholders of the club - its members.

Failing this - it is a lack of governance. So even though Brad Green is the interim President, even though he may be “chummy” with Simon, even though he publicly acknowledges that SG is our “only living Premiership coach, and should be held in high respect” … he should not be immune from criticism when it comes to the performance of the team.

We’ve had an easier fixture this season and failed to make finals already with still 7-8 games remaining.

We’ve had many undisciplined acts on the field, leading to costly 50m penalties. Poor accuracy in front of goal.

The best teams maintain good discipline, through strong leadership and strong coaching. It’s that simple.

Mr Tower , your Highness 😉 .. good to read your post 👍

At times it is hard to know where to start isn't it though I think you're right in bringing the spotlight to development. Or in our case..............

From my cheap seats I can only agree. We've failed to perpetuate our motion and we're falling off a cliff. Some might suggest we've a perfectly paired strategy whereby we team a plan that's not working with players not equipped to do so.

Got to feel for the kids that get Melbourne'd !!

Post more H_T 😀

10 hours ago, Adam The God said:

I noted on AFL360 while I was in the pub that we're the number one ball movement team in the competition. It's a marked shift in the way we play

It's more about more of the same

All those hundreds of long bombs forward effectively speeds up our ball movement (e.g. A 50 metre kick takes about 5 seconds where as a string of handpasses or short kicks can take 15 seconds plus)

So that stat is not about a change in the way that we play

For instance, I'd say our speed of ball movement in 2021 would have been right up there as well

In the games this season where we have had less long bombs and more short kicks & handpasses, our ball movement has been effectively slowed down (principally the games against Freo, Lions & Swans)

I'm surprised that more people here haven't picked up on the above. It was the first thing I thought of when hearing that we lead the comp in ball movement

In other words, nothing to hang our hats on

So the issue is what it was at the start of the season ... our experienced players are letting us down with their poor disposal forward

As well as that, in a general sense, our forwards are incapable of winning their own ball

Edited Wednesday at 22:062 days by Macca

27 minutes ago, SPC said:

Time to clear out Goody and his coaching panel.

Time to cut the list deep. Trac, Oliver, May, Fritta, Lever all in the equation. Plus all the 2-4 year fringe players who are not up to it.

Bring in some leaders from other clubs.

Plan for a 2027-28 rise.

I agree... need to prune this club like a rose bush...

Hysterics much

Goodwin stays

Look at the assistants

29 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I agree... need to prune this club like a rose bush...

To contend again we need our former A Graders to start performing at their best (???) or we need to replace our former A Graders with other A Graders (immediate or long term)

So culling the list won't necessarily make us a better team. But right now, we are not progressing in the right direction

The other issue is how to offload players on long term deals on big salaries. Easier said than done as none of the big money earners (apart from Gawn) are performing well

Could be that we're either stuck with these players or we won't get much in return

In my view, it's a player performance issue and less about the coaching

The big earners can't change the way they are playing. They get the ball then waste it

Apart from anything else, right now, it would cost the club about $2.5Million to offload Goodwin (that would include about $750k with regards to the FD Tax)

So we're probably stuck with Goodwin but we're also probably stuck with a bunch of underperforming big earners

For instance, what club would be remotely interested in taking up Oliver's salary? Reported to be in the region of $1.7Million per season until the end of 2030

And what would we get back in return? (if anything)

A new coach would need at least 2 or 3 years to fix the list (especially if we cull the list)

13 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

Mental fatigue was listed, it was never a centrepiece. You've stated that it's a centrepiece.

I used it as an example of a factor that isn't talked about nearly enough around here due to the conversation being consistently steered in the 'loading' or the 'we're not fit enough' direction by a select few popular posters.

Mental fatigue absolutely holds given our core group have barely changed and that's where most of your output as a side comes from. And that's part of the issue.

And I also disagree re Binman always stressing that it's a multitude of factors. Perhaps more recently he's come around due to our now consistent and predictable shortcomings. But early days the main conversation and excuses for our performances were around 'loading, injury, not being fit enough'. Not list imbalance, skill execution and level being MAJOR issues, inability to adapt being a major issue, the consistency and predictability of losing the same way being a major issue. Which of course leads to mental fatigue, lower motivation levels, loss of confidence etc etc.

I was strong on fitness being a big factor in our first 5 losses this season. It's much more complex than that now.

It's all of what you've said: personnel, holes in the list, poor coaching, psychology, decision making, execution of fundamental skills and yes probably still some fitness issues.

It's a tangled web and I sure as hell am not going to try and fix it.

32 minutes ago, Macca said:

...

For instance, what club would be remotely interested in taking up Oliver's salary? Reported to be in the region of $1.7Million per season until the end of 2030

...

Hey @Macca when Oliver was resigned in 2022 it was reported as a 7 year deal worth $7 million. No where near the numbers that are suddenly being thrown around now.

afl.com.au

Demon for life: Oliver signs MASSIVE contract extension

Clayton Oliver has signed a new contract until the end of 2030

1 hour ago, Macca said:

It's more about more of the same

All those hundreds of long bombs forward effectively speeds up our ball movement (e.g. A 50 metre kick takes about 5 seconds where as a string of handpasses or short kicks can take 15 seconds plus)

So that stat is not about a change in the way that we play

For instance, I'd say our speed of ball movement in 2021 would have been right up there as well

In the games this season where we have had less long bombs and more short kicks & handpasses, our ball movement has been effectively slowed down (principally the games against Freo, Lions & Swans)

I'm surprised that more people here haven't picked up on the above. It was the first thing I thought of when hearing that we lead the comp in ball movement

In other words, nothing to hang our hats on

So the issue is what it was at the start of the season ... our experienced players are letting us down with their poor disposal forward

As well as that, in a general sense, our forwards are incapable of winning their own ball

Sorry, but no it's not. There has been a demonstrable change.

There was a guy from Champion Data on one of the radio shows a few weeks back explaining the new stat.

It's not all about how fast it gets into the 50, it's how fast ball movement is all over the ground.

Get the ball, make a decision, dispose of the ball. They literally have a person/people timing everything during and post game (imagine that job! 🤮)

Anyway, they also did a comparison to successful sides from previous seasons, including us in 2021, and we were much slower then and in seasons since than we are now.

3 minutes ago, deanox said:

Hey @Macca when Oliver was resigned in 2022 it was reported as a 7 year deal worth $7 million. No where near the numbers that are suddenly being thrown around now.

afl.com.au

Demon for life: Oliver signs MASSIVE contract extension

Clayton Oliver has signed a new contract until the end of 2030

Doesn't Oliver's salary increase pro-rata to the Salary cap increases?

By the time we get to 2030 the overall salary cap might hit $18Million up to $20Million

The reason I referred to the $1.7Million is because of the numbers that are being thrown around

Might be $1.3Million Per annum which is still an almighty sum for a player nowhere near his best

If Clarrie could kick to position or at least hit targets by foot then this conversation probably wouldn't exist

Just now, JTR said:

Sorry, but no it's not. There has been a demonstrable change.

There was a guy from Champion Data on one of the radio shows a few weeks back explaining the new stat.

It's not all about how fast it gets into the 50, it's how fast ball movement is all over the ground.

Get the ball, make a decision, dispose of the ball. They literally have a person/people timing everything during and post game (imagine that job! 🤮)

Anyway, they also did a comparison to successful sides from previous seasons, including us in 2021, and we were much slower then and in seasons since than we are now.

Well if they aren't counting the long bombs into the forward line then they should be

Just another useless stat if all the variables aren't included

The eye test tells us we waste the ball heading into the forward line so our offense stinks to high hell

Edited Wednesday at 23:542 days by Macca

8 hours ago, Hellfire Dub said:

Last week seemed like another example where the players just couldn't be arsed. Petty was one of the few trying to get stuck in. Only the QT bollocking by Maxy seemed to spur them into action.

They didn't seem bothered by going 4-5 goals down and didn't arrive on the field motivated and prepared by whatever the coaches had said and done beforehand. I thought this was especially true of some of the senior and highest paid players in the first quarter, a couple of whom are still deplorable kicks and turnover merchants.

That same nagging suspicion was there in the start of this season; that a number of players want a change of coaches and weren't fully committed to the message or gameplan or the boss. That feeling was back in force in the first quarter versus the suns: Lose the game, but make it look like a half decent effort. Pathetic.

I was so angry in the third quarter that for the family's peace and wellbeing I switched it off. Then I went out to my shed to do something positive and work on a little woodwork project.

Yeah I did much the same, went and built some Lego with my 6yo instead of subjecting him to anymore of that nonsense.

I am not sure about the buy-in/change of coach stuff, because we had a few weeks (our only block of wins) where it was starting to look like things were coming together, and even in the loss to the Pies, but I just can't get my head around the will they/won't they turn up stuff, and in the case above, not turning up in Q1, with fresh legs, after a bye, when fitness should not be an issue, after the media team spend so much time on insta talking about flights being booked, and the guys landing up there, then.... nothing... where are they? What happened to all that buzz? Just a no-show until the game was gone. Strange.

8 minutes ago, Macca said:

Doesn't Oliver's salary increase pro-rata to the Salary cap increases?

By the time we get to 2030 the overall salary cap might hit $18Million up to $20Million

The reason I referred to the $1.7Million is because of the numbers that are being thrown around

Might be $1.3Million Per annum which is still an almighty sum for a player nowhere near his best

If Clarrie could kick to position or at least hit targets by foot then this conversation probably wouldn't exist

I'm not privy to the details. I know a fixed percentage has been discussed, but I'm pointing out that is something that has been discussed after the initial reports which said "$7 million over 7 years".

You'd think if it was a fixed percentage, they could have got the estimate right by saying. "10 million of 7 years" or something similar.

Also if it was $1m in 2022 and a fixed percentage, then that would be $1.3m today and $1.36m in 2027 based on the actual size of the cap. Substantially less than the purported $1.7 million.

Even if the cap hits $20 million in 2030, the last year of his contract, it would only be $1.47m.

A lot of numbers are made up and add to hyperbole.

Edited Thursday at 00:072 days by deanox

3 minutes ago, deanox said:

I'm not privy to the details. I know a fixed percentage has been discussed, but I'm pointing out that is something that has been discussed after the initial reports which said "$7 million over 7 years".

You'd think if it was a fixed percentage, they could have got the estimate right by saying. "10 million of 7 years" or something similar.

Also if it was $1m in 2022 and a fixed percentage, then that would be $1.3m today and $1.36m in 2027 based on the actual size of the cap. Substantially less than the purported $1.7 million.

Even if the cap hits $20 million in 2030, the last year of his contract, it would only be $1.47m.

A lot of numbers are made up and add to hyperbole.

Regardless, Oliver's impact is not worth anywhere near what he is getting paid

Let's not forget that he went off the boil in 2023. So it's been over 2 and a half years of B grade (at best) performances

So it wasn't just last year and this year

To be fair, he's not alone

Viney, May, Lever, Petty, Salem, Petracca, JVR, Sparrow, Fritsch and a number of others are below their best

As a team, we are miles off it and it's not one particular area. For instance, we choke in front of goal

And we are not hard at it either. Fearless football was Goodwin's mantra but we're not seeing it

32 minutes ago, Macca said:

Well if they aren't counting the long bombs into the forward line then they should be

Just another useless stat if all the variables aren't included

The eye test tells us we waste the ball heading into the forward line so our offense stinks to high hell

Where was that said anywhere?

Have a read here if you are interested.
It explains the various metrics, what they mean and how all teams stack up in each of the criteria.

Your "eye test" is irrelevant to the "Speed of Ball" conversation.
That what stats like disposal efficiency, or marks inside 50 are for.

2 minutes ago, JTR said:

Where was that said anywhere?

Have a read here if you are interested.
It explains the various metrics, what they mean and how all teams stack up in each of the criteria.

Your "eye test" is irrelevant to the "Speed of Ball" conversation.
That what stats like disposal efficiency, or marks inside 50 are for.

Moving the ball quickly is pointless unless we can then convert that movement into efficient forward 50 entries

We'd probably be high up for inside 50 entries but that's another useless stat as we are terrible at converting those entries

Let's face it, we are now a bottom 6 team and it's a long road back. Definitely need change but change isn't easy when the contracts are rock solid

Didn't we have a full scale review in the off-season? Need another one

Edited Thursday at 00:422 days by Macca

9 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

I don't understand why you're quoting me regarding your first paragraph. I was simply pointing to where much of the conversation on here has strayed to over the past four years and that I disagree with a lot of it. Maybe let's leave it.

As far as your last paragraph goes, you're missing out again the most important factor in why we haven't been able to shift and why there are teething issues. It goes further than an 'ability or time to learn'. It's about execution. And again it comes back to our list. We simply don't possess enough attributes across the board to execute the type of game required to compete with the best sides. And as we've seen, if out contest and pressure isn't present against lower rung sides, we are also in trouble. That is entirely on Goodwin. Hasn't made the right calls or the calls he has made have been the same ones netting us the same result, the same predictable outcomes and the same types of losses.

How many more times are we going to hear that our inefficiency cost us a game? And how many more times from Goodwin are we going to hear that 'we're working incredibly hard on it and the results will come', all the while playing and trusting the same group of core players who are the reason behind it all?

How many times have we talked about execution. That's been the constant theme for 8 or 9 years. I and others wanted Viney to play as a pressure forward in 2020 because his ball use was a killer in midfield.

In 2021 I also lamented our goalkicking. I said if we didn't kick straight we wouldn't win the flag. We had an incredible finals series where we kicked mostly straight.

The way you're framing these things is like no one has ever said them. Our ability to execute has constantly been a Demonland trope for as long as I can remember...

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

Moving the ball quickly is pointless unless we can then convert that movement into efficient forward 50 entries

We'd probably be high up for inside 50 entries but that's another useless stat as we are terrible at converting those entries

Let's face it, we are now a bottom 6 team and it's a long road back. Definitely need change but change isn't easy when the contracts are rock solid

Didn't we have a full scale review in the off-season? Need another one

While I agree that our connection inside 50 has been a persistent issue, I would still argue that being a leader in this new metric - during an era that favours fast ball movement - has us much better positioned than people think, or at least want to acknowledge whilst we are in the depths of another hand wringing phase.

We're excelling in many other areas across the ground, yet struggle with that final phase and putting points on the board.

I'd much rather that than getting smashed in all facets of the game, or persisting with an old game style like Carlton.

It's clear we're on a challenging path, but there's definitely merit in what we are trying to do.

Edited Thursday at 01:132 days by JTR

1 minute ago, JTR said:

While I agree that our connection inside 50 has been a persistent issue, I would still argue that being a leader in this new metric - during an era that favours fast ball movement - has us much better positioned than people think, or at least want to acknowledge whilst we are in the depths of another hand wringing phase.

We're excelling in many other areas across the ground, yet struggle with that final phase and putting points on the board.

I'd much rather that than getting smashed in all facets of the game all over the ground, or persisting with an old game style like Carlton.

It's clear we're on a challenging path, but there's definitely merit in what we are trying to do.

I'm a firm believer that Goodwin is advocating change and is trying to implement change

But it's fairly obvious (to me, at least) that the players are just not adhering to change

The old habits becomes the default mode under pressure

I reckon most of the other teams have realised that if they pressure our mids then the ball will be rushed forward to a forward line bereft of talent

And just to make sure of it, the opposition teams flood our forward line to make it doubly hard to score (from the inside 50 entries)

Not exactly news either ... it was evident in early 2022 that was the M.O. of the opposition teams

We rarely see Oliver, Petracca or Viney in free space delivering the ball forward

16 hours ago, old55 said:

I think we need to move on from Simon Goodwin but that's not going to happen with placeholder President and CEO, and Alan Richardson as GM of Football on borrowed time. Goodwin will coach us in 2026 and IMO that's OK because he seems a well-liked, good character who has recognised that we need to evolve and has started the wheels in motion, so I think we not in a poisonous state that needs a fast antidote. Carlton has done MFC management a huge favour by absorbing all the media spotlight. - we're in a very similar position to them.

Steven Smith and Paul Guerra need to be working in the background to find Richo's replacement so that the three of them can start to make a proper assessment of the state of affairs and Goodwin's future. It may be that they decide he IS the guy to go forward with, I doubt it but I don't really know. I think his strength is his weakness - he's possibly too wedded to senior players who took us there in 2021.

There was rumour circling around that Jimmy Bartel maybe approached as GM of Football. Any truth to that?

He seems to have his head screwed right. Heck he may even leak some of the Cats special herbs and spices for us to get a leg up.