Bizzell

[QueenC 74]

It was great to see Bizz back and playing well......

He was fantastic in that last quarter and deserves to be given the credit.

Hopefully he will continue on in this vein in the coming weeks

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm not saying that they are competing for the same spot...

You said alot of people said they do. And I replied they are wrong.

And your response?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

.....

Good points Jaded.

If Jones had kicked straight in the last after receving a pass from Harvey 20 metres in the clear (from his opponent Bizzell) 35 metres out then history might put a different swing on this.

However, I am gald one satisfactory game from a player in his last year will happily erase the databank of ordinary performances in the past 3 to 4 years for some people.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

You said alot of people said they do. And I replied they are wrong.

FFS.

I said: "I don't see why Bizzell and Rivers can't be in the same team together".

You said "They aren't competing for the same position".

The reason I said the first line was that there are people who seem to think Rivers and Bizzell are competing. I don't think they are, hence my first line. But you started rabbiting on about Rivers not being used to Jones etc as if you were trying to prove me wrong.

You just assumed that whatever I write you must disagree with, when actually we agree that they are not competing for the same spot.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Good points Jaded.

If Jones had kicked straight in the last after receving a pass from Harvey 20 metres in the clear (from his opponent Bizzell) 35 metres out then history might put a different swing on this.

However, I am gald one satisfactory game from a player in his last year will happily erase the databank of ordinary performances in the past 3 to 4 years for some people.

I haven't seen the game in full, but the general consensus around the place is that Bizzell was one of the best players.

Would you agree with that?

Or is any good performance just "satisfactory"?

[waynewussell 5,748]

Rhino, I think your databank has already been partially erased. Do you think Bizzell's 3 or 4 years of mediocre performances include the 12 months out with injury OR the 2004, 2005 era. I'd like you to name the 20 plus games (for surely that would be the minimum to gain 'databank' status). Stop blowing your own horn and talk sense. You may not like the way Biz goes about it but to call his efforts for the club mediocre is just plain dumb analysis. Perhaps you should acknowledge that you had retired him too early. This can be the result of mediocre appraisal of a players contribution... Come to think of it, you may be building your own database there Rhino...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

FFS.

I said: "I don't see why Bizzell and Rivers can't be in the same team together".

You said "They aren't competing for the same position".

The reason I said the first line was that there are people who seem to think Rivers and Bizzell are competing. I don't think they are, hence my first line. But you started rabbiting on about Rivers not being used to Jones etc as if you were trying to prove me wrong.

You just assumed that whatever I write you must disagree with, when actually we agree that they are not competing for the same spot.

So whats the relevance of what "alot of people" think?

You seem quite enamored with the herd mentality.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I haven't seen the game in full, but the general consensus around the place is that Bizzell was one of the best players.

Would you agree with that?

Or is any good performance just "satisfactory"?

Are they the same people that think Rivers and Bizzell interchange on roles?

I thought his game satisfactory.

He had 2 goals kick on him in the first and had his opponent made the most of some relatively easy shots at goals we might be pondering more why Bizzell does not play more accountable for his man.

\

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rhino, I think your databank has already been partially erased. Do you think Bizzell's 3 or 4 years of mediocre performances include the 12 months out with injury OR the 2004, 2005 era. I'd like you to name the 20 plus games (for surely that would be the minimum to gain 'databank' status). Stop blowing your own horn and talk sense. You may not like the way Biz goes about it but to call his efforts for the club mediocre is just plain dumb analysis. Perhaps you should acknowledge that you had retired him too early. This can be the result of mediocre appraisal of a players contribution... Come to think of it, you may be building your own database there Rhino...

WW, clearly you are one of the one good game and he is a champ. WW, I'll keep it simple for you. The 3 to 4 years cover the period 2004 to 2007. By the time he was injured Bizz was already a fringe player struggling for a game.

Where have I called Bizzell's efforts for the club mediocre? Or is this the quality of your analysis Wayne?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

So whats the relevance of what "alot of people" think?

I'll s-p-e-l-l it out for you.

diesel said "Great game by Bizz. Courageous as ever and should stay in at least until Rivers is fit and up and playing well".

That's one example of the many times on this site where people say that either one of Rivers of Bizzell should be in the team as they play the same / a similar role.

I was disputing that claim.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Are they the same people that think Rivers and Bizzell interchange on roles?

I thought his game satisfactory.

He had 2 goals kick on him in the first and had his opponent made the most of some relatively easy shots at goals we might be pondering more why Bizzell does not play more accountable for his man.

\

2004 - good until injured.

2005 - good then faded away at the end and was unlucky to be dropped.

2006 - broken leg

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

2004 - good until injured.

2005 - good then faded away at the end and was unlucky to be dropped.

2006 - broken leg

2004. After he was injured he was appalling and the late Troy Broadbridge had taken his role on the HBF by season's end.

Nothing to do with unlucky to be dropped in 2005. He had about 10 games on the run where he was continually exposed.

Its amazing that we went into the 2005 EF with a crippled side and Bizzell's lamentable response to his poor form in the seniors was to repeat it at Sandy.

He was injured in 2006 but was already a fringe player.

2007- Continued up and down performances with Sandy.

I know what I get with Bizzell. He will from time to time look impressive against wasteful and undiscilined teams. Yesterday he was allowed to be loose and was not made to pay for it by his opponent. But when the pressure is on and he is required to be solid and accountable. He ain't.

[Jonesy is the next captain 0]

Top game by Bizz. It is hard to come back from playing in VFL and be able to match it with the big boys in the AFL. Finally after some match practice he has come good, I always love when be plays well to stick it to my Geelong friends cos they clearly got shafted on that trade! Go Bizz luv ya work

[CarnTheDees 52]

They are wrong. Rivers has taken the key CHB role in most roles. Bizz has played off a HBF.

Do you (or they) know who Bizzell played on this week?

Corey Jones.

Rivers would not be wasted on a Corey Jones.

I think you underestimate Jones' importance to the Kangaroos lineup. Agreed that Rivers wouldn't play on him, but only because Jones plays shorter (more like a Ryan O'Keefe type HFF).

Yes Jones was wasteful in front of goal, and yes Bizzell gave him some latitude in a couple of key moments in the last quarter. But keep it in perspective that Jones is a good forward and Bizzell has hardly played AFL this season.

I think if I was picking my best back 6 right now it would look like:

Bell Carroll Holland (matchup pending)

Bizzell Rivers Brown/Petterd

Green is not a defender, unfortunately Grant's zero possessions in the first quarter ensured this mismatch lasted longer than it should have.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I think you underestimate Jones' importance to the Kangaroos lineup. Agreed that Rivers wouldn't play on him, but only because Jones plays shorter (more like a Ryan O'Keefe type HFF).

Yes Jones was wasteful in front of goal, and yes Bizzell gave him some latitude in a couple of key moments in the last quarter. But keep it in perspective that Jones is a good forward and Bizzell has hardly played AFL this season.

I have alot of time for Jones capaibility but not his kicking at times! Rivers would not normally pick him up

I think my assessment of Bizzell's performance was very much in perspective. Bizzell is an experienced footballer at this level and knows the drill. A defender's rule 101 is that you are accountable for your direct opponent

The fact that he lets his opponent go punishes his good work done elsewhere. It did yesterday.

If Jones had kicked the goal in the last we would not be rueing how that game got way from us. We would be asking how did Corey Jones get 20 metres of space in front of goal.

From your back six who would have got Grant?

[CarnTheDees 52]

I have alot of time for Jones capaibility but not his kicking at times! Rivers would not normally pick him up

I think my assessment of Bizzell's performance was very much in perspective. Bizzell is an experienced footballer at this level and knows the drill. A defender's rule 101 is that you are accountable for your direct opponent

The fact that he lets his opponent go punishes his good work done elsewhere. It did yesterday.

If Jones had kicked the goal in the last we would not be rueing how that game got way from us. We would be asking how did Corey Jones get 20 metres of space in front of goal.

From your back six who would have got Grant?

Yes Bizzell was unaccountable at times, but so was Archer on Robbo.

Bell should have had Grant from the start.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yes Bizzell was unaccountable at times, but so was Archer on Robbo.

Bell should have had Grant from the start.

Archer has superior judgement to Bizz over the course of their careers and Archer brings far more to the table that Bizz.

Archer was OK yesterday without being anything special. I did note he copped a Robbo knee in the head in the last and went down so I would be prepared to give him some latitude in the last. Robbo did little until the last qtr.

[CarnTheDees 52]

Archer has superior judgement to Bizz over the course of their careers and Archer brings far more to the table that Bizz.

Archer was OK yesterday without being anything special. I did note he copped a Robbo knee in the head in the last and went down so I would be prepared to give him some latitude in the last. Robbo did little until the last qtr.

I'm not comparing Bizzell to Archer in any way other than there was one instance where Robbo got free from Archer to mark uncontested and goal. You seem to be hanging Bizzell for one lapse in accountability and I'm simply highlighting that even the best defenders do it from time to time.

The point I'm making is that I think Bizzell had a pretty good game against a tough opponent, and he definitely deserves to be retained for next week.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm not comparing Bizzell to Archer in any way other than there was one instance where Robbo got free from Archer to mark uncontested and goal. You seem to be hanging Bizzell for one lapse in accountability and I'm simply highlighting that even the best defenders do it from time to time.

The point I'm making is that I think Bizzell had a pretty good game against a tough opponent, and he definitely deserves to be retained for next week.

Take your point.

For mine it is a constant not just a once off with Bizzell that has compromised his value over a number of years. The best defenders do do it but usually no when to go and when to stay. Bizz does not have the judgement to do this.

I have no doubt he will get selected.

[waynewussell 5,748]

unaccountable in this context is the language of yesteryear's 1 on 1 philosophy. The game has moved on. We have other roles allocated to backmen that take them a long way from their so-called opponent. It is not unusual, particularly if the ball is turned over to find that forwards are metres clear running toward their own goal. I'm sure the coach, having allocated roles in the back half, has a much more accurate account of who has been un-accountable. To label a third man up, sweeper, re-director un-accountable because his 'opponent' popped up with an uncontested possession is out of date. Having said that, I prefer the 1 on 1 days to some of the basketball we see today. Give Bizzell credit where credit is due, and rate him according to the style of back-play popular in the 21st century (at which he excells!)

[Jarka 767]

I think played well enough to deserve more game time but I don't think he fits into our medium or long term plans, and we aren't going to win the premiership in the next couple of years.

[Jonesy is the next captain 0]

I think played well enough to deserve more game time but I don't think he fits into our medium or long term plans, and we aren't going to win the premiership in the next couple of years.

Of course he deserves another game it will take a while to come back from the rubbish that is VFL to play at an AFL standard, couple of weeks he will be flying

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

unaccountable in this context is the language of yesteryear's 1 on 1 philosophy. The game has moved on. We have other roles allocated to backmen that take them a long way from their so-called opponent. It is not unusual, particularly if the ball is turned over to find that forwards are metres clear running toward their own goal. I'm sure the coach, having allocated roles in the back half, has a much more accurate account of who has been un-accountable. To label a third man up, sweeper, re-director un-accountable because his 'opponent' popped up with an uncontested possession is out of date. Having said that, I prefer the 1 on 1 days to some of the basketball we see today. Give Bizzell credit where credit is due, and rate him according to the style of back-play popular in the 21st century (at which he excells!)

So a backman is not accountable for his opponent! Well glory be. Its a revolution

Thanks for the information....I think

[QueenC 74]

Of course a defender is accountable for an opponent.......

But there is a hell of a lot of value, especially in the way the game is played today in a half back flanker or any defender these days who can create drive and run from the back line, and to do this they therefore have to be able to leave their opponent. This of course is in general and is not particularly specific.

But that doesn't make them automatically unaccountable, because they have to always watch their man.

[diesel 420]

diesel said "Great game by Bizz. Courageous as ever and should stay in at least until Rivers is fit and up and playing well".

That's one example of the many times on this site where people say that either one of Rivers of Bizzell should be in the team as they play the same / a similar role.

I was disputing that claim.

They have played similar roles across HB but have obviously played together in 2005. I'm fine with having them both in but Rivers is an automatic selection and has more footy in front of him. That's where I'm coming from.

If we could leave out Ward and/or Brown for Bizz and Wheels, that would be ideal.