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POSTGAME: Rd 12 vs Carlton


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11 hours ago, binman said:

Because I have had this debate for years and years, I have heard all the arguments about why the current model of well-paid amateurs works. None stack up for mine.

The most common argument aginst professional umpires is that it is prohibitively expensive. 

Please – it is a multibillion dollar industry and we have accountants and physiotherapists making decisions that can change the fortune of a club.

You'd need to pay them a lot though, at least the same as the highest paid players, because they will be sacrificing their best years of career development umpiring - and what then?  Those accountants and physiotherapists can go on doing that work beyond their involvement in football because they've been building their career.  Players have club sponsored job opportunities beyond football.

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Ugly win, but we were by far the better side.   I have been increasingly worried that some of our wins earlier in the season came more from moments of individual brilliance rather than our system, so I was particular pleased to see a system based win.  We now have to work on our polish otherwise we won't get past Collingwood on Monday.

Good chance it's been posted already, but expected scores had us winning very easily.

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On 6/4/2023 at 10:40 AM, BDA said:

You think AFL has a lot of interpretation you should take a look at Rugby Union! Gaelic football referees get lambasted all the time because nobody knows what a legal Gaelic football tackle is.

The thing that sets AFL umpiring apart is the number and frequency of dreadful decisions. Interpretation is one thing but how in heaven did the ump think Dockerty deserved a free on Friday night. Everyone around me were scratching their heads. And there are lots of those decisions every weekend.

Set aside time, money and resources to help improve the standard. It's a no brainer so why isn't it being done?

When the players of BOTH teams stop and run instinctively in one direction you know there is a problem'

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41 minutes ago, old55 said:

You'd need to pay them a lot though, at least the same as the highest paid players, because they will be sacrificing their best years of career development umpiring - and what then?  Those accountants and physiotherapists can go on doing that work beyond their involvement in football because they've been building their career.  Players have club sponsored job opportunities beyond football.

Just treat them the same as say, the second rank of highest paid players. And club sponsored job opportunities for players can be AFL sponsored ones for umpires.

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14 minutes ago, sue said:

Just treat them the same as say, the second rank of highest paid players. And club sponsored job opportunities for players can be AFL sponsored ones for umpires.

The post playing career "club sponsored" job prospects for players are provided by influential club supporters, there is no "AFL" equivalent for umpires.

There's also post career playing and coaching at lower levels with associated jobs for players that umpires don't have.

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10 minutes ago, sue said:

Just treat them the same as say, the second rank of highest paid players. And club sponsored job opportunities for players can be AFL sponsored ones for umpires.

As with any group..   you have the noobs... the experienced ones,  the more senior ones....etc

Pay scales accordingly... like any organisation. 

But organise, train and pay them properly. 

Make the game better ... i.e less ambiguous and subjective rules..  Make it easier to umpire and to facilitate their abilities and accountability.

Its a dogs breakfast currently....fair to no one.

 

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2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

As with any group..   you have the noobs... the experienced ones,  the more senior ones....etc

Pay scales accordingly... like any organisation. 

But organise, train and pay them properly. 

Make the game better ... i.e less ambiguous and subjective rules..  Make it easier to umpire and to facilitate their abilities and accountability.

Its a dogs breakfast currently....fair to no one.

 

It's not "like any organisation" because umpires have a limited career span and there's only one employer world wide

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25 minutes ago, old55 said:

The post playing career "club sponsored" job prospects for players are provided by influential club supporters, there is no "AFL" equivalent for umpires.

There's also post career playing and coaching at lower levels with associated jobs for players that umpires don't have.

True, the is no equivalent for umpires.  Therefore the AFL should run such a program out of its enormous budget. 

In any case, many players play for relatively modest sums compared to the stars and are not treated to a golden future by their club's influential supporters.  They play for other reasons and do whatever career afterwards they have either planned or fall into.  The same could apply to umpires.  

It may not produce 100% of what is needed, but it would go a long way towards fixing things.

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17 minutes ago, old55 said:

It's not "like any organisation" because umpires have a limited career span and there's only one employer world wide

The umpires themsleves have said plenty of times that they don't want to go professional and they don't see how full time hours could be filled and can't see how it would actually improve things.

The best thing to imrpove the quality of umpiring is make rule changes to reduce the ambiguity of decisions.  The pushing in the back in marking contests is currently a mess and is incredibly hard to umpire.  It wasn't that way when the hand in the back rule was in existience.  

When the rules commitee come to look at possible rule changes, one of the main things they should consider is whether it would make the game easier or harder to umpire.

And also, start properly punishing players who stage for frees!!!

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12 minutes ago, sue said:

In any case, many players play for relatively modest sums compared to the stars and are not treated to a golden future by their club's influential supporters.  They play for other reasons and do whatever career afterwards they have either planned or fall into.  The same could apply to umpires.  

A significant number of children grow up with a desire to play AFL so those playing for modest sums have fulfilled a life long ambition, so they calculate that certain sacrifices are worth it. These are your "other reasons". I don't think many children grow up with a lifelong ambition to be an AFL umpire. I'm not saying umpiring can't be rewarding but "other reasons" don't apply in anything like the same way.

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1 minute ago, sue said:

True, the is no equivalent for umpires.  Therefore the AFL should run such a program out of its enormous budget. 

In any case, many players play for relatively modest sums compared to the stars and are not treated to a golden future by their club's influential supporters.  They play for other reasons and do whatever career afterwards they have either planned or fall into.  The same could apply to umpires.  

It may not produce 100% of what is needed, but it would go a long way towards fixing things.

The big issue is ages. Most players start in their teens or early 20’s and by 25 have either made a career or a great financial start and can then continue on strong wages or turn their attention to other careers.

Umpiring is always going to demand more maturity by the nature of the job.

30-40 will be the prime years for umps which is also the prime career advancement years for most people.

I think it would be smart to identify a number of 25 year olds with elite potential and create a pathway for a number of full time umpires. 1 per game would be a wise aim. But making the entire system full time certainly isn’t a short term option if at all.

Umpires are already very well paid for part time work and a lot of careers are now flexible with jobs. They can’t give up their jobs but I’d imagine many are doing 3 or 4 day weeks.

The thing that’s been overlooked with umps this year is that the shift from 3 to 4 has lowered the standard across the comp.

It’s also messed with positioning and with overruling.

These are short term negatives that we are suffering through for the greater good. 

The overwhelming positive is that for the first time in decades the running work load on umps has been significantly eased. We will see that benefit with less injuries, longer careers, less rigorous fitness demands over the next few years.

And the teething problems with getting more umps per round, different angles, poor or reluctant overruling from off ball umps will start to resolve.

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I agree with ViperP that some serious work on the rules would make the umpire's job easier and it should be first cab off the rank whether umps become pros or not.

 OLD55 is right of course, the desire to be an umpire is far less common than that to be a player.   But some have a passion to be involved in football and if they find they'll never be good enough as a player, umpiring might fill that desire.  We don't need as many people motivated to be umpires as we need players.  We have towards 800 AFL players and need only 27 field umpires a round (in very rough numbers of course).  

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Another way to improving umpiring standards would be to rip off the band-aid and finally get rid of the centre bounce.  It really won’t be missed, I promise.  It will no longer be a reason some umpires can’t umpire at the highest level.  It will no longer cause anxiety for umpires who mess a few up.  It will allow them to keep their heads up to see what’s going on.  Reduce the radius of the centre circle by a metre or two and just throw the thing up.

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35 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

Another way to improving umpiring standards would be to rip off the band-aid and finally get rid of the centre bounce.  It really won’t be missed, I promise.  It will no longer be a reason some umpires can’t umpire at the highest level.  It will no longer cause anxiety for umpires who mess a few up.  It will allow them to keep their heads up to see what’s going on.  Reduce the radius of the centre circle by a metre or two and just throw the thing up.

Agree.  While the traditional look of a perfect bounce is great, far too often the bounce clearly favours one side and the umpires do not recall it when they should.   

The AFL has already made it clear the bounce will die.  Why else would they throw it up after a 666 infringement? There seems no justification for not just doing the bounce as usual after issuing the warning.

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Here's my question: Umpires have always been part time but why could they bounce it a lot better in the past than now?

When it comes to set shots and goal kicking you can possibly use the excuse of players being full time and prioritising other training, what is an umpire's excuse for this one element of the job that doesn't need interpretation but just a lot of practice? 

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3 hours ago, old55 said:

You'd need to pay them a lot though, at least the same as the highest paid players, because they will be sacrificing their best years of career development umpiring - and what then?  Those accountants and physiotherapists can go on doing that work beyond their involvement in football because they've been building their career.  Players have club sponsored job opportunities beyond football.

Well, you wouldn't necessarily get accountants and physiotherapists - except for the nonprofessional roles (realistically three full time professional per game may not be financially viable, so you'd still need the highly skilled amateurs - who by the way i think get paid pretty well for every game they officiate).

But accountants and physiotherapists aren't the only people with the skills set to be excellent umpires.

My son was pretty handy junior basketballer. But was never going to make it at the elite level. So, he went down the refereeing path and jumped up through the grades pretty quickly.

He had a mentor from Basketball Australia, who invest significant resources into this area, who had been a FIBA ref at the Olympics and world championships and really encouraged him to think about the opportunities refereeing provided (international travel, NBL and the big one - professional NBL ref). 

My son ultimately decided to stop reffing, which was unfortunate as he became an excellent ref, in large part because of the training and pathways BA provided.

Anyone who has been at high stakes basketball game at any decent level knows how crazy and intense the pressure is. The best refs thrive in this environment - but only with the right support and training.

My son is never going to be an accountant or physiotherapist, but if he stayed the course, he would have become an excellent ref. If there was a path to become full time professional AFL umpire he may well have pursued that option.

As would many young people - if you love sport and want to be involved at the highest level why not make umpiring a career? 

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15 hours ago, binman said:

Please – it is a multibillion dollar industry and we have accountants and physiotherapists making decisions that can change the fortune of a club.

 

17 minutes ago, binman said:

Well, you wouldn't necessarily get accountants and physiotherapists - except for the nonprofessional roles (realistically three full time professional per game may not be financially viable, so you'd still need the highly skilled amateurs - who by the way i think get paid pretty well for every game they officiate).

But accountants and physiotherapists aren't the only people with the skills set to be excellent umpires.

I think you've entirely missed my point in response to your original reference to "accountants and physiotherapists".

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1 hour ago, sue said:

I agree with ViperP that some serious work on the rules would make the umpire's job easier and it should be first cab off the rank whether umps become pros or not.

 OLD55 is right of course, the desire to be an umpire is far less common than that to be a player.   But some have a passion to be involved in football and if they find they'll never be good enough as a player, umpiring might fill that desire.  We don't need as many people motivated to be umpires as we need players.  We have towards 800 AFL players and need only 27 field umpires a round (in very rough numbers of course).  

In case you missed it sue, there are 4 field umpires per game now plus an emergency.  That's 45 field umpires per round, not counting the ones who are injured or out of form and working at lower levels.  The required number is quite a bit higher than a team's playing list.

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18 hours ago, monoccular said:

Not only kids either. Some seniors in particular also find this time way too late.  
Even  watching “neutral games” on TV unless it is close or high standard, I may just turn off at half time.  Surely even the TV execs who seem to run AFL scheduling  will be aware of this?
And this is all the worse with the regular “train replaced by busses” we seem to get all the time. 

Unlikely. It's their job to be coked to the eyeballs. The concept of being fatigued by 10pm simply wouldn't register.

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25 minutes ago, binman said:

Well, you wouldn't necessarily get accountants and physiotherapists - except for the nonprofessional roles (realistically three full time professional per game may not be financially viable, so you'd still need the highly skilled amateurs - who by the way i think get paid pretty well for every game they officiate).

But accountants and physiotherapists aren't the only people with the skills set to be excellent umpires.

My son was pretty handy junior basketballer. But was never going to make it at the elite level. So, he went down the refereeing path and jumped up through the grades pretty quickly.

He had a mentor from Basketball Australia, who invest significant resources into this area, who had been a FIBA ref at the Olympics and world championships and really encouraged him to think about the opportunities refereeing provided (international travel, NBL and the big one - professional NBL ref). 

My son ultimately decided to stop reffing, which was unfortunate as he became an excellent ref, in large part because of the training and pathways BA provided.

Anyone who has been at high stakes basketball game at any decent level knows how crazy and intense the pressure is. The best refs thrive in this environment - but only with the right support and training.

My son is never going to be an accountant or physiotherapist, but if he stayed the course, he would have become an excellent ref. If there was a path to become full time professional AFL umpire he may well have pursued that option.

As would many young people - if you love sport and want to be involved at the highest level why not make umpiring a career? 

I see this as a reason to invest more heavily into the support structures around umpires and the pathways, not in making the umpires themselves full-time.  Perhaps having more full time umpire coaches/mentors and analysts is the way to go.  

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5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Absolutely. 

Scenario for moi

Game ends.   15/20 mins to get on Richmond  Station.  Maybe 5-15  mins for train 

45mins on train

5mins walk to car

45/50 min drive home.

It's a very late night.

You know you’re old when 7.50 on a Friday night is too late.

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25 minutes ago, old55 said:

In case you missed it sue, there are 4 field umpires per game now plus an emergency.  That's 45 field umpires per round, not counting the ones who are injured or out of form and working at lower levels.  The required number is quite a bit higher than a team's playing list.

No old55 I hadn't missed it.  I was just assuming this 4 umpire madness would disappear by next season.  And yes, I am aware that there will be umpires injured etc. - hence my stating "in very rough numbers of course"

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