15 minutes ago, A F said:

Patently untrue.

Last year we were reliant on stoppages for scores. We went long to the pockets. We played the same three mids at almost every centre stoppage and were trying to be perfect out the front of stoppages from these situations.

Leading into the Port game, we were in the top 4 for scores from stoppages, scores from turnovers and scores from kick outs. A much greater ability to score than last year.

This has translated to being highest scoring side in the competition (not the case last year), but we've managed not to greatly sacrifice our defensive side of the game, as we still have the fourth best defensive record in the competition. 

We are also rolling many more players through the stoppages this year and experimenting all over the ground, particularly with our forward and defensive set ups (personnel wise), and using our wingers differently to 2021-2022. For example, they no longer sit off the back of the contest, they literally stay out. The anti-bees to the honey pot.

So we've managed to go from a very safe, move the ball slowly and predictably to the pockets, to a team that moves the ball quickly, plays more defensive smalls than talls to win defensive ground ball and run and carry off half back, and we also enter 50 more centrally and less predictably than 2022. It's made the emphasis on winning the contest even greater. If we win the contest, our game flows and we score quickly. If we lose the contest (think Port on Friday night), we struggle to score, but our defensive organisation keeps us in games.

Ground ball remains the only real weakness that has followed through from 2022.

What has arguably gone backwards is our stoppage work, but this is easily explained by the fact we're rolling our less talented players through there more often, to take lessons from Geelong and rest our elite players in game more.

What has stayed true from 2021-2023 is that if we win contest and ground ball, we're extremely difficult to beat. And in 2023, we have far more avenues to goal (ways of scoring and personnel).

In fact, again, going into the Port game, we were top 5 of all time for spread of goal kickers.

Our game is set up to score from both stoppages and from turnover, something that is clearly very deliberately set up to beat Collingwood, who rely on extra numbers at the stoppage. So if we commit less to the contest, it means we have runners on the outside. Providing our contested players win the inside battle, we're a huge shot of scoring heavily on the outside and off turnover.

I'd love to know how you think we're winning and losing in the same ways? I hope you've got more than 'we beat up on the weak teams and can't beat the better teams'...

Nice evaluation and I can’t help but think come Finals time the big 4 will be at stoppages and those numbers may well start falling our way. 

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by Roost it far

8 hours ago, McQueen said:

14 plastic beers.

That is theft.

29 minutes ago, A F said:

I'd love to know how you think we're winning and losing in the same ways? I hope you've got more than 'we beat up on the weak teams and can't beat the better teams'...

Like I said previously we've got the same forward problems as last year.  We turn up to certain games asleep like last year.   The blueprint to beat us is well known which the coaches could not find a way to counter last year or this year.  For example opposition coaches are telling their players to keep the ball on the ground so May and Lever can't intercept.  Some teams are running at our defence which we don't like.  Opposition players are also told not kick it to Gawn if he's playing down back but to go around him.  When teams pressure us we struggle like last year.  Goodwin also seems to have difficulty making tactical changes during games when things aren't going well just like last year

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by Orion

I think some supporters don’t really remember what 2021 was like, we didn’t click until round 20…
There was lots of doubt surrounding us up to that point, we had just been beaten by the pies (not the side they are today), drawn to the lowly ranked hawks,lost to the giants at home in a really lack lustre performance and got beaten up by the dogs at the G. There was talk about our forward line connection then and if we had the ability to kick a winning score in a big final. 
 

I for one am enjoying the ride, keeping the faith in the FD that we will go deep into September then anything can happen. 

19 minutes ago, GCDee said:

I think some supporters don’t really remember what 2021 was like, we didn’t click until round 20…

Yeah but that was 2021.  Things move fast in the AFL

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by Orion

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Like I said previously we've got the same forward problems as last year.  We turn up to certain games asleep like last year.

That wasn't the trend at all last year. The trend was in the second half of the year, we'd run out of steam in second halves.

Whereas, in our premiership year we'd run over teams usually (exception basically being GWS and Collingwood that year). 

2 hours ago, Orion said:

 Some teams are running at our defence which we don't like.  Opposition players are also told not kick it to Gawn if he's playing down back but to go around him.  When teams pressure us we struggle like last year. 

That is literally how you beat every team in the competition, because moving the ball quickly off half back is the way to beat the modern zone that we'd perfected in 2021.

I agree that the way to beat the modern zone is to move the ball quickly and use short chips off half back to break the zone and then kick over the top of it. Even better if you can use a chip and then a handball receive to break more lines.

However, when teams have done it to us, our half forwards have been off and when they tried it (say against Sydney), we shut them down by not allowing the handball receive.

I do think the modern zone requires a tweak and I've banged on about this for a few weeks now, because I think we were trialling something in our Richmond game.  That is, go 1v1 from the stationary kick out and then zone behind it. But again, you don't necessarily want to show all your cards at this stage of the season. This is an adjustment we could make in season IMO. 

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Goodwin also seems to have difficulty making tactical changes during games when things aren't going well just like last year

The system is about trusting your players to play their roles and get the job done. This was Clarkson's philosophy during the threepeat era as well...

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by A F

41 minutes ago, Orion said:

Like I said previously we've got the same forward problems as last year.  We turn up to certain games asleep like last year.   The blueprint to beat us is well known which the coaches could not find a way to counter last year or this year.  For example opposition coaches are telling their players to keep the ball on the ground so May and Lever can't intercept.  Some teams are running at our defence which we don't like.  Opposition players are also told not kick it to Gawn if he's playing down back but to go around him.  When teams pressure us we struggle like last year.  Goodwin also seems to have difficulty making tactical changes during games when things aren't going well just like last year

The game wasn’t lost because of our defence, they were epic in keeping us in it. The games was lost at contest and it was only just lost even though, bar 20 minutes we got flogged, and I mean flogged….except down back. We were 14 points down at halftime FFS. I’d say any other team would have been 6-8 goals down

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by Roost it far

55 minutes ago, A F said:

That wasn't the trend at all last year. The trend was in the second half of the year, we'd run out of steam in second halves.

Whereas, in our premiership year we'd run over teams usually (exception basically being GWS and Collingwood that year). 

After winning 10 straight, it went something like this:

Round 11 - we led Freo 6.8 to 2.7 at half time. Lost by 38 points. 

Round 13 - we led Collingwood 5.4 to 3.8 at half time. Lost by 26 points.

Round 17 - we trailed Geelong 5.4 to 5.8 at half time. Lost by 28 points.

Round 19 - we led Bulldogs 11.5 to 9.2 at half time. Lost by 10 points.

Round 21 - we led Collingwood 10.7 to 8.2 at half time. Lost by 7 points.

First Qualifying Final - we trailed Sydney 5.4 to 6.4 at half time. Lost by 22 points.

Semi Final - we led Brisbane 6.8 to 3.4 at half time. Lost by 13 points.

It certainly helps if your best players are on the park as well. Missing May, Petty and Oliver last year was huge.

We weren't far off last year to be honest. Our second halves in the second half of the season cost us at least 8 wins.

This year, we've only lost one 4th quarter - against Port.

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by A F

I think if the only thing that can make you happy is a premiership then you're destined to have a lot of unhappy weeks as a football supporter.  We're a very good team who regularly gives a red hot go - that's all I need.

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by old55

1 hour ago, A F said:

That wasn't the trend at all last year. The trend was in the second half of the year, we'd run out of steam in second halves.

Whereas, in our premiership year we'd run over teams usually (exception basically being GWS and Collingwood that year). 

That is literally how you beat every team in the competition, because moving the ball quickly off half back is the way to beat the modern zone that we'd perfected in 2021.

I agree that the way to beat the modern zone is to move the ball quickly and use short chips off half back to break the zone and then kick over the top of it. Even better if you can use a chip and then a handball receive to break more lines.

However, when teams have done it to us, our half forwards have been off and when they tried it (say against Sydney), we shut them down by not allowing the handball receive.

I do think the modern zone requires a tweak and I've banged on about this for a few weeks now, because I think we were trialling something in our Richmond game.  That is, go 1v1 from the transitionary kick out and then zone behind it. But again, you dont necessarily want to show all your cards at this stage of the season. This is an adjustment we could make in season IMO. 

The system is about trusting your players to play their roles and get the job done. This was Clarkson's philosophy during the threepeat era as well...

You were always going to criticize no matter what he or she said

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by one_demon

29 minutes ago, one_demon said:

You were always going to criticize no matter what he or she said

Criticise or to point out that saying 'we turn up to certain games asleep like last year' was factually incorrect?

Interesting framing, given I'm the one sticking up for the club...

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by A F

1 hour ago, old55 said:

I think if the only thing that can make you happy is a premiership then you're destined to have a lot of unhappy weeks as a football supporter.  We're a very good team who regularly gives a red hot go - that's all I need.

We beat Richmond, Carlton and Essendon (until this year) regularly. We've pantsed North, a team we couldn't beat for years. Hawthorn are our bunnies now. Big 4 is a realistic expectation every year. These are great times we're living in.

Now if we could just beat the pies every once in a while...

 

Well put, Kieran!

Passionate, eloquent and impossible to argue against.

I was sanguine after the loss to Port for many of the reasons you've outlined.

 

22 hours ago, monoccular said:

Kieren - great post and I agree with most of it. 

However this needs a tweak:
“…..when did you, as a team, create success? When you had consistency & cohesion & trust. When you had the same 22 fellas running out to kick the sherrin,….”

I think that “the same 22” may offer some stability but 2022 showed that basic the same 22 who got us the ultimate in 2021 has limited shelf life and a failure to renew cost us in 2022.   That has been addressed this year, partly through necessity of injury and form collapses.  

Sorry Kieren did not necessarily mean the "same personnel" but same as in "goals plans and unity on the one page as it were". 

Last year Goody learned a hard lesson that you cant have the same group you have to evolve. 

I have had my critiques of the handling of things but I am well aware how many amazing players we have and the health of the list and the club. I have structured my rare holidays around getting down to the next three games at the G to see this amazing team.

I will try to stay in the moment and enjoy it. Not hard with this city and that ground. 

IM HIGH ON THE HILL

LOOKING OVER THE BRIDGE

To you know where…

3 hours ago, A F said:

After winning 10 straight, it went something like this:

Round 11 - we led Freo 6.8 to 2.7 at half time. Lost by 38 points. 

Round 13 - we led Collingwood 5.4 to 3.8 at half time. Lost by 26 points.

Round 17 - we trailed Geelong 5.4 to 5.8 at half time. Lost by 28 points.

Round 19 - we led Bulldogs 11.5 to 9.2 at half time. Lost by 10 points.

Round 21 - we led Collingwood 10.7 to 8.2 at half time. Lost by 7 points.

First Qualifying Final - we trailed Sydney 5.4 to 6.4 at half time. Lost by 22 points.

Semi Final - we led Brisbane 6.8 to 3.4 at half time. Lost by 13 points.

It certainly helps if your best players are on the park as well. Missing May, Petty and Oliver last year was huge.

We weren't far off last year to be honest. Our second halves in the second half of the season cost us at least 8 wins.

This year, we've only lost one 4th quarter - against Port.

Oliver missed one game last year which was against Port Adelaide where we won..

All good teams have injuries. Richmond lost Rance to an ACL at the start of 2019 and won a flag.

You're making excuses now.

 

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by dazzledavey36

Right now our form is not good enough to win the flag. But right now is May and a lot can change between May and September. 
 

I remember talking draft picks and delistings in May. This is much better. 

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by Jaded No More

6 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Oliver missed one game last year which was against Port Adelaide where we won..

All good teams have injuries. Richmond lost Rance to an ACL at the start of 2019 and won a flag.

You're making excuses now.

 

I mentioned Oliver because he was out, but May and Petty going off cost us those games (Petty missed the third quarter three weeks in a row, where the opposition got ahold of us). But again, not the point I was making.

The point I was making is we've improved our second halves, which were crucial to us not making a prelim or GF last year.

So there's plenty to be optimistic about.

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by A F

17 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Right now our form is not good enough to win the flag. But right now is May and a lot can change between May and September. 
 

I remember talking draft picks and delistings in May. This is much better. 

Er, we’ve been talking draft picks ( Freo’s) since the start of the year!

3 hours ago, A F said:

After winning 10 straight, it went something like this:

Round 11 - we led Freo 6.8 to 2.7 at half time. Lost by 38 points. 

Round 13 - we led Collingwood 5.4 to 3.8 at half time. Lost by 26 points.

Round 17 - we trailed Geelong 5.4 to 5.8 at half time. Lost by 28 points.

Round 19 - we led Bulldogs 11.5 to 9.2 at half time. Lost by 10 points.

Round 21 - we led Collingwood 10.7 to 8.2 at half time. Lost by 7 points.

First Qualifying Final - we trailed Sydney 5.4 to 6.4 at half time. Lost by 22 points.

Semi Final - we led Brisbane 6.8 to 3.4 at half time. Lost by 13 points.

It certainly helps if your best players are on the park as well. Missing May, Petty and Oliver last year was huge.

We weren't far off last year to be honest. Our second halves in the second half of the season cost us at least 8 wins.

This year, we've only lost one 4th quarter - against Port.

yep and that 4th quarter was frees 10-2 Ports way. they had a lot of help. 

19 minutes ago, A F said:

I mentioned Oliver because he was out, but May and Petty going off cost us those games (Petty missed the third quarter three weeks in a row, where the opposition got ahold of us). But again, not the point I was making.

The point I was making is we've improved our second halves, which were crucial to us not making a prelim or GF last year.

So there's plenty to be optimistic about.

Him being out didn't affect us at all. We still won the game that he missed. A game we knew we'd win easily and simply get the job done. It was simply one game.

It's not worth even putting him amongst the likes of Lever, Salem, Petty and May who actually missed significant games during the year against quality top 6 sides.

 

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Him being out didn't affect us at all. We still won the game that he missed. A game we knew we'd win easily and simply get the job done. It was simply one game.

It's not worth even putting him amongst the likes of Lever, Salem, Petty and May who actually missed significant games during the year against quality top 6 sides.

 

Righto mate. It's really not a big deal. And again, not the point I was making.

Just now, A F said:

Righto mate. It's really not a big deal. And again, not the point I was making.

I get the point you were making. We were bad in the 2nd half of last year. Yep, totally get that.

We've improved this year. But we've also played 3 of the worst sides in the comp who really are VFL standard so of course alot of our numbers and keys stats will jump up.

I still reserve judgement on us as a whole until we can show we can beat a top 4 quality team this year without getting smacked around the clearences and stoppages badly like we have.

Right now, so far on both occasions meaning Port and Brisbane, we've been incredibly poor in both performances.

5 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

We've improved this year. But we've also played 3 of the worst sides in the comp who really are VFL standard so of course alot of our numbers and keys stats will jump up.

I still reserve judgement on us as a whole until we can show we can beat a top 4 quality team this year without getting smacked around the clearences and stoppages badly like we have.

Right now, so far on both occasions meaning Port and Brisbane, we've been incredibly poor in both performances.

Good posting

10 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I get the point you were making. We were bad in the 2nd half of last year. Yep, totally get that.

We've improved this year. But we've also played 3 of the worst sides in the comp who really are VFL standard so of course alot of our numbers and keys stats will jump up.

I still reserve judgement on us as a whole until we can show we can beat a top 4 quality team this year without getting smacked around the clearences and stoppages badly like we have.

Right now, so far on both occasions meaning Port and Brisbane, we've been incredibly poor in both performances.

It's very likely we will not continue experimenting with our mids though and that these numbers that everyone seems so worried about, will continue (ie we'll still be top 4 for scores from stoppages).

I don't mind too much if we're losing the stoppage count, but winning the scores from stoppages. Particularly, as given our strength this year is scores from turnover, if the opposition is winning stoppages and kicking it straight to us and we're scoring on turnover, we have the game looking like we want it.

Surely, you'd agree with this?

And naturally, we're going to be judged by our next month or so of footy.

Edited May 24, 20231 yr by A F