The pow wow

[Lord Nev 13,512]

11 minutes ago, A F said:

Mate, again, where has anyone said this?

 

16 hours ago, binman said:

Again, i'm not looking for debate, so please don't worry about rebutting me, but we have been fatigued because of loading in EVERY game since round 11 (with the exception of the lions game - which came after the bye and the enforced break). That is why we have been overrun in the second half in EVERY game since round 11 (except the lions game).

 

15 hours ago, BW511 said:

Could the talk of ‘ruthlessness’ be a little bit of code for being fresh.

If we come out firing tonight, it looks to most like an attitude issue that we adjusted, when in reality it was just getting to the end of the loading period and we can actually cover the ground required to be ruthless.

 

15 hours ago, binman said:

Exactly my thought 

 

14 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Exactly.

The club knew we would be significantly better this week. And also know how dumb the media are, so they have planted the narrative pre game “pow wow”, “ruthlessness”, “hunger” etc 

whatever. 
 

 

11 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Hook, line and sinker. Watch every stupid media commentator say for the next week, how we have magically re-discovered our “ruthlessness”, “fitness”, and “defensive game”. 

And most painful of all will be Kingy claiming he was correct in identifying the “pow wow” as a turning point. 

 

2 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Club taking the [censored] in the media this week. Classic.

 

2 hours ago, binman said:

Yep.

Playing 'ruthless' bingo.

Goal - how many times can we collectively say ruthless 

 And how often can we make footy media say ruthless?

Pretty clear narrative here IMO.

The 'ruthless' commentary wasn't for real (Goodwin, Richo, Gus and Trac all talked about it), we weren't 'complacent' (Richo said pre-game we were), there was no "pow wow" and even if there was it wouldn't matter (Richo said pre-game there'd been extra meetings and honest conversations this week) it was all just a ploy by the club to say things in the media that weren't true to cover up the fact that we were loading and that was the one and only thing that would change our fortunes.

 

[Adam The God 30,271]

11 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Pretty clear narrative here IMO.

The 'ruthless' commentary wasn't for real (Goodwin, Richo, Gus and Trac all talked about it), we weren't 'complacent' (Richo said pre-game we were), there was no "pow wow" and even if there was it wouldn't matter (Richo said pre-game there'd been extra meetings and honest conversations this week) it was all just a ploy by the club to say things in the media that weren't true to cover up the fact that we were loading and that was the one and only thing that would change our fortunes.

Sorry, but none of those quotes say loading is "the only thing happening at the club". Most "loaders" believe it's the key reason, not the only reason, a point that has been made numerous times now. So your phrasing was disingenuous there.

Edited July 30, 2022 by A F

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Just now, A F said:

Sorry, but none of those quotes say loading is "the only thing happening at the club". Most "loaders" believe it's the key reason, not the only reason, a point that has been made numerous times now.

I'm in the loading camp mate, always have been.

But it's obvious from those comments those posters think all the talk from the club during the week about ruthlessness and complacency was a front for the media to hide the fact we're loading.

"Hook, line and sinker" "Club taking the [censored] in the media" "Playing 'ruthless' bingo"

This conspiracy belief that the club made up a narrative and sent out our coach, footy boss and a couple of our leaders to deliver it in the media is just silly. The simple answer is that was the theme of the week, that's why it was front of mind, that's why numerous people from the club used the exact same words.

Because I believe we were loading I think we were more capable of delivering it, playing how we want to play, but we wouldn't be talking about attitudes within the club if our only focus was loading.

[Wells 11 5,406]

16 hours ago, binman said:

As regulars readers of Demonland know, I believe the biggest factor in our form over the last two months is loading.  Not the only factor. But by far the most impactful factor. 

Regulars reader will also know how frustrating i find the media analysis of our great game.

There is a thread asking if people have enjoyed this season. I was reflecting on that question and realized that last season i lapped up every media mention of the dees, whereas as this year i can barely watch anything, such is my frustration with the pathetic level of analysis and how completely wrong it usually is.

Demonstone made the reasonable point sometime back that if i get so wound up by David King, then i should just stop watching or listening to him. And i have largely taken that advice.

But my issue is how analysis that is just so wrong shapes fans' perception and opinions.

Both of these things (loading and rubbish analysis) came crashing together when i watched David King on the 'watchlist' segment on 360 on Wednesday night.

I am amazed how few comments there has been on Demonland about the segment, and as far i have seen, not one person pushing back or critising David King.

I am still livid.

Why?

Because David King insulted our players. Insulted our leaders. Insulted our team. Insulted Trac. Insulted Clarry. Insulted Max. Said there was 'no investment there in your teammate. It's every man for himself '.

I am ropeable. 

And on his analysis he is so so wrong.

In short his thesis is that teams are 'switching against the demons more than anyone else' in the last 6-8 weeks and that they are able to do so because we are not invested, we are not working hard enough, we are complacent, we have lost our hunger.

To make his case he showed a clip from the 2021 round 8 game against the Swans where with our incredible all team defence we completely covered the corridor kick and the switch, forcing the Swans down the line to an aerial contest.

He is right in saying that is our method. He is also right in saying that we have not been doing that in the last 8 matches.

And to demonstrate that latter point he also showed a clip from the dogs game last weekend where, after a free to the dogs deep in their defence, we had time to set up our grid but didn't and allowed the ball to exit our forward line with relative ease. 

But he is completely wrong as to why that is the case. 

If King had chosen any other game we played between round 11 and round 19 instead of that Swans game he literally could have chosen dozens of similar examples of us not covering the switch or failing to get the game looking how we want it to look.

Hell, he could have chosen the exact corresponding round 19 game from last year against the same side, where the dogs won because we could not stop them switching or force them down the line.

I freely admit that there is fair dose of confirmation bias here, but the three players he highlighted, Trac, Clarry and Sparrow all looked completely exhausted to me. Sparrow was gassed, and bent over sucking in the big ones.

Again, i'm not looking for debate, so please don't worry about rebutting me, but we have been fatigued because of loading in EVERY game since round 11 (with the exception of the lions game - which came after the bye and the enforced break). That is why we have been overrun in the second half in EVERY game since round 11 (except the lions game).

And that is why we are not stopping teams switch as well as we normally do.

Only the Tigers and Freo have an all team defensive system anywhere near as aerobically taxing as ours. Fatigue renders our system sub optimal at best, dysfunctional at worst. And all parts of our method have the defensive system as their foundation.

Take that defensive spread away and we are a completely different team. As we all saw between rounds 11 and 19 LAST season. And as we have seen again between rounds 11 and 19 THIS season. And as we will see between rounds 11 and 19 NEXT season (assuming we are top 4 contenders next year). 

So, King is wrong. Dead wrong.

But Joe the average footy fan doesn't know that. Joe the average footy fan laps up the [censored] narrative about the complacent premiers, full of leaders who are not 'invested'. 

And when we smash Freo tonight, will lap up next weeks equally [censored] narrative about the dees flicking a switch, rediscovering their hunger yada, yada yada. 

And the pow wow?

I have no idea what he was referencing, but he reckons we had a pow wow and that was evidence of our lack of investment (ie because we had to come together to address this issue).  I immediately checked Demonland because i had not heard of any such meeting. And there was, and has not been since, anything on here about any 'pow wow'.

Perhaps we did have some such meeting. But if not, i am assuming he was referring to our intense training session that got quite a bit of attention.

If so, again he is way, way off the mark. As 3183 noted in another thread, we did exactly same thing ahead of our round 20 clash last year, and super intense, match like training sessions were standard for the rest of the season. So, all part of the program, not some line in the sand palaver. 

I'm not looking for a debate. I understand that many people don't agree with my position on how impactful loading has been on our game. I simply wanted to put this out there before it all gets lost in this next, exciting phase we are about to enjoy.  

I'm not sure about others, but i for one won't cop our club and our players coping such pathetic, ill informed nonsense.

I don't have the technical skills to put the clip on here. Andy will add the clip at a later date, but if someone else has the skills to do that would be great. The date of the show is 27 July and the time stamp is 46.48 to 46.48

Love yr work and yr analysis. King might not read it but we all do! 

[1964_2 2,357]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm in the loading camp mate, always have been.

But it's obvious from those comments those posters think all the talk from the club during the week about ruthlessness and complacency was a front for the media to hide the fact we're loading.

"Hook, line and sinker" "Club taking the [censored] in the media" "Playing 'ruthless' bingo"

This conspiracy belief that the club made up a narrative and sent out our coach, footy boss and a couple of our leaders to deliver it in the media is just silly. The simple answer is that was the theme of the week, that's why it was front of mind, that's why numerous people from the club used the exact same words.

Because I believe we were loading I think we were more capable of delivering it, playing how we want to play, but we wouldn't be talking about attitudes within the club if our only focus was loading.

Got me again, well done.

We did not say we don’t believe the club when they say there is a focus on ruthlessness etc. it’s a great message and a great mindset for the players to be in! 

Again, no criticism to Melb. A PR strategy, like all big organisations have. They have not lied to the media, they have just been selective in what they  have released. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. 

Here is a challenge for you LN. Find me one media commentator/analyst, that shows an ability to dig a little deeper in analysing why we turned things around last night. That is the focus of this discussion. The lack of ability for the media both pre game and post game to actually have a deeper understanding of where we are at, and why we probably should be outright flag favourites. 

What is Lloyd going to say now, after completely writing us off the last few weeks?! 
 

[1964_2 2,357]

14 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm in the loading camp mate, always have been.

But it's obvious from those comments those posters think all the talk from the club during the week about ruthlessness and complacency was a front for the media to hide the fact we're loading.

"Hook, line and sinker" "Club taking the [censored] in the media" "Playing 'ruthless' bingo"

This conspiracy belief that the club made up a narrative and sent out our coach, footy boss and a couple of our leaders to deliver it in the media is just silly. The simple answer is that was the theme of the week, that's why it was front of mind, that's why numerous people from the club used the exact same words.

Because I believe we were loading I think we were more capable of delivering it, playing how we want to play, but we wouldn't be talking about attitudes within the club if our only focus was loading.

Of course to benefit from a loading program, mental application and focus is required :- pretty sure most “loaders” thought this is that obvious that it doesn’t need to be said. 
 

Edited July 30, 2022 by 1964_2

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, 1964_2 said:

Got me again, well done.

We did not say we don’t believe the club when they say there is a focus on ruthlessness etc. it’s a great message and a great mindset for the players to be in! 

Again, no criticism to Melb. A PR strategy, like all big organisations have. They have not lied to the media, they have just been selective in what they  have released. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. 

Here is a challenge for you LN. Find me one media commentator/analyst, that shows an ability to dig a little deeper in analysing why we turned things around last night. That is the focus of this discussion. The lack of ability for the media both pre game and post game to actually have a deeper understanding of where we are at, and why we probably should be outright flag favourites. 

What is Lloyd going to say now, after completely writing us off the last few weeks?! 
 

I'm not defending the media analysts mate. I agree we rarely get fantastic in-depth discussion from the majority of them. None of that has been my point.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

I think there is element of loading that has effected our performance of late but our pressure has been down all year - even at the start. ‘playing in 2nd gear’ , ‘just getting it done’, ‘winning ugly’ we’re being dished out in the first 10 rounds. The lack of pressure is obviously exacerbated by our loading program.

I always thought the lack of pressure  was by design .   There is no need to smash teams early in the year - it’s a very long season. The wins are the important outcome and we relied on system to get this done. However 18th in pressure when our system relies on it wasn’t what I expected and I think the complacency has crept into the game.

The focus on ruthlessness this week was to remind ourselves of what it takes to win in Sept, knowing that you cant just switch it on like a light switch - you need to build into it. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Goody post game: "We had a ruthless edge tonight...."

Man, can't believe he's still playing 'ruthless bingo' and baiting the media.

 

[1964_2 2,357]

14 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm not defending the media analysts mate. I agree we rarely get fantastic in-depth discussion from the majority of them. None of that has been my point.

You are twisting what has been said, and trying to suggest we think Melb thought it would be fun to troll the media.

No. All we are saying, is just because knowone in the media can look deeper than “ruthlessness” as a reason, doesn’t mean there wasn’t more behind the win. Richmond, Geel, Hawthorn and some of the great teams would have been pretty confident by R20 in their flag years :- Did they spoon feed the media why they were a great chance of winning the flag those years?! Of course not. 

This year many of us have just found it interesting how quickly people have been to jump off us (demonland posters, media, public, everyone). 

This week pre game 80-90% of people would have said Geel is a greater chance of winning the flag. I just find that strange. The team that we beat by 83 points in last year’s prelim (granted with some good reasons, why they are better this year) 
 

[1964_2 2,357]

9 minutes ago, CYB said:

I think there is element of loading that has effected our performance of late but our pressure has been down all year - even at the start. ‘playing in 2nd gear’ , ‘just getting it done’, ‘winning ugly’ we’re being dished out in the first 10 rounds. The lack of pressure is obviously exacerbated by our loading program.

I always thought the lack of pressure  was by design .   There is no need to smash teams early in the year - it’s a very long season. The wins are the important outcome and we relied on system to get this done. However 18th in pressure when our system relies on it wasn’t what I expected and I think the complacency has crept into the game.

The focus on ruthlessness this week was to remind ourselves of what it takes to win in Sept, knowing that you cant just switch it on like a light switch - you need to build into it. 

Good points. But, how good is it to be sitting in 2nd position, when we are 18th for pressure!

Does anyone doubt what our pressure will be for a final on the G? 
 

[waynewussell 5,764]

Confucius say..."One man's pressure is another man's poison!"

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

54 minutes ago, CYB said:

I think there is element of loading that has effected our performance of late but our pressure has been down all year - even at the start. ‘playing in 2nd gear’ , ‘just getting it done’, ‘winning ugly’ we’re being dished out in the first 10 rounds. The lack of pressure is obviously exacerbated by our loading program.

I always thought the lack of pressure  was by design .   There is no need to smash teams early in the year - it’s a very long season. The wins are the important outcome and we relied on system to get this done. However 18th in pressure when our system relies on it wasn’t what I expected and I think the complacency has crept into the game.

The focus on ruthlessness this week was to remind ourselves of what it takes to win in Sept, knowing that you cant just switch it on like a light switch - you need to build into it. 

This is what I hate about the media, leading with misleading stats. We were not 18th for pressure in the first 10 rounds. I can’t remember the exact window they used but it was, I’m sorry to say it, a tight window around the peak of our loading phase.

 We have never been waiting to flick a magic switch. We have been driving hard, like running up a hill with a heavy backpack. Constantly ignoring the backpack and telling ourselves to work harder, be more ruthless, dig  deep and work for each other. This week we just dropped the back pack.

 Let’s just say, all of a sudden getting to the contest to apply pressure just got a lot easier.

[BW511 2,673]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Goody post game: "We had a ruthless edge tonight...."

Man, can't believe he's still playing 'ruthless bingo' and baiting the media.

 

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. You agree with the loading ideology but want everyone to know there are other factors at play because you assume no one else can see that.

I’m positive the ruthless message was a key focus and I’m also positive that it has only come out because there was a lot of data to suggest we were ready to deliver on that promise.

I will reiterate, loading is not the only factor in our poor form but if you asked me the simplest way to negatively impact performance, fatigue is it.

[binman 43,056]

3 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

I'm not defending the media analysts mate. I agree we rarely get fantastic in-depth discussion from the majority of them. None of that has been my point.

Nev, it wasn't my intention to start a debate about the club's messaging. Its a furphy, of my own creation, that only distracts from my main two points. 

- David King insulted our players, our club. He didn't say we weren't ruthless enough. He accused our players, and specifically singled out our leaders, of not being invested, of not showing care for their teammates

- this defamation was based on a completely flawed piece of analysis that amplifies a simplistic narrative about the game that doesn't help fans make sense of the sport, and worse drives a misunderstanding of the game (by the by even if someone agreed with his premise, the insult is still way out of order, at least in my eyes)

You're right there was a clear focus on attacking this game. They no doubt did have a strong meeting to focus the minds if the players. Because we are now in the final phase, and its time to go up a level physically and mentally. 

But of course King, driving his silly narrative implies that meeting was some sort of extraordinary, circle the wagons , line in the sand crisis meeting. 

They no doubt had the same meeting at this point last year, a time when not coincidentally our hunger was also being questioned externally (can the dees be trusted?). All part of the program.

Smart messaging by the club this week. 

My perspective on the topic is I don't believe the focus on ruthlessness and the club's messaging was evidence or an indication the players have been complacent or there is any lack of hunger.

But that is just my interpretation of the message, filtered as it is through my own biases and beliefs.

Other interpretations are entirely valid and I acknowledge I might be wrong. 

Personally I reject the notion we have been complacent, despite the comments from the club, and similar reject the suggestion we are not hungry enough.

You don't establish the level of comparative fitness we saw last night without being manically driven. It's just that fans don't see all that work.

I also reject in advance the idea that will be floated all week that somehow we flicked some imaginary psychological switch and suddenly became ruthless and driven. It's not 1978. Elite sport doesn't work like that. (to be clear I'm not suggesting you think otherwise).

But as i say that's all just an opinion of mine, my perspective. I might well be wrong. Others might be right.

It certainly isn't worth opening up a debate about the topic. Its a dead end  and risks an argument for argument's sake.

We can certainly agree that we were ruthless last night.

And we can agree that the club's messaging had been smart, and that includes the timing of Gus's resigning.

Let's enjoy the win. 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by binman

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

Let's enjoy the win.

We agree on a lot there mate. Just the messaging piece we differ on but that's footy hey.

Good to be up and about for the rest of our season, let's hope we slingshot into finals now. Cheers!

[binman 43,056]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

We agree on a lot there mate. Just the messaging piece we differ on but that's footy hey.

Good to be up and about for the rest of our season, let's hope we slingshot into finals now. Cheers!

Yep. And thankfully for everyone on dl we can stop talking about loading.

The curse has lifted!

Can't wait for next week's game. Me thinks the pies might have a different experience than queens birthday. 

On that game, I love the fact it is a home game.

Lets all get there dees fans and make it a hellish cauldron for the pies to endure.

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by binman

[Wodjathefirst 2,634]

18 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

binman, two things:

-I’ve never understood the point in getting upset at what outsiders say. Definitely not a lot you can do about it, apart from what you have done - venting with your mates. Hope it has helped.

- I actually don’t mind the us and them situation, ‘cause when we prove these jerks wrong, it will be just so satisfying.

 

I’m with you, so the only realistic option is to try and go with the flow.

Having said that when we go all the way again this year it will make it seem that little bit sweeter.

 And I’m already gearing up for 2023, I can already feel the hate coming our way….. winners are grinners .GO DEES 

 

[binman 43,056]

17 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I know where your heart and head is @binman but give us supporters some credit.

While I didn't watch the segment you referenced , I do watch/listen/read to some of the analysis provided by the Media.

However, ultimately I make my own decisions based on what I've seen. I don't think footy supporters are totally gullible.

Fair comments.

I did sound a bit dismissive with the joe footy public quip.

I was more trying to say how the footy media shapes the narrative. 

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

2 hours ago, binman said:

Of course he had.

Which makes his media work trolling of the highest order. 

I mean two days before it was announced he did an Interview that had some demonland posters convinced he was gone

 

Exactly. I reckon Gus loves to get a reaction. I mentioned elsewhere that he and he and Hamish were stirring the pot the day before Gus' announcement with some of the comments. I thought it was clearly a bit of a pizz take. Yet some panicked over it

[Lord Nev 13,512]

11 minutes ago, Stiff Arm said:

Exactly. I reckon Gus loves to get a reaction. I mentioned elsewhere that he and he and Hamish were stirring the pot the day before Gus' announcement with some of the comments. I thought it was clearly a bit of a pizz take. Yet some panicked over it

It was a pizz take that his brother said he wanted to play midfield and then a few days later he was playing midfield? Righto.

[Wodjathefirst 2,634]

3 hours ago, binman said:

Exactly.

Control the narrative. It's communication 101.

Everything scripted, repetition of key messages by all club people doing media. In this case ruthless.

Which we were. From start to finish. 

As the club knew we were going to have the legs to do so. 

Smart stuff by the club.

 

Totally agree. It would be foolhardy to bare your ‘inner club strategies’ for the want of better words to the media, footy fans and us the MFC supporters.  Put simply, it would be counter productive and damaging.

I personally like the team values mantra that Goody goes on about in press conferences. It says everything and gives nothing away.

The inner ‘workings’ of the club must always be kept covert. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

2 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

This is what I hate about the media, leading with misleading stats. We were not 18th for pressure in the first 10 rounds. I can’t remember the exact window they used but it was, I’m sorry to say it, a tight window around the peak of our loading phase.

 We have never been waiting to flick a magic switch. We have been driving hard, like running up a hill with a heavy backpack. Constantly ignoring the backpack and telling ourselves to work harder, be more ruthless, dig  deep and work for each other. This week we just dropped the back pack.

 Let’s just say, all of a sudden getting to the contest to apply pressure just got a lot easier.

I know what you mean but It’s the whole season on this particular stat and I actually think it has been quite evident. We haven’t been dog hungry like 21 - but I also think this is more by design and has probably gone a bit too far. 

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

55 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

It was a pizz take that his brother said he wanted to play midfield and then a few days later he was playing midfield? Righto.

FMD

Last time...

Hamish was clearly stirring the pot when he mentioned more midfield time, money and possibly moving clubs in an interview the day before Gus' re-signing was announced. He would've known that Gus had re-signed, or at the very least that he was staying. 

FWIW, Goodwin said that throwing Gus into the midfield had been considered for a number of weeks now and that this was an opportunity to do that and put him on his brother (a wry smile as he said it)

And no, I am not claiming Gus played in the midfield last night for a pizz take, just that there's a bit of fun in Hamish's comments

I won't respond further on this, as its not in the spirit of Binman's thread

[Deesprate 1,324]

The media have the attention span of a gnat. However it is in their interest to wax lyrical about pies; blues; bombers etc. it sell papers (do they still exist). As a smaller club where ripe for criticism. I like King comment as it pretty much discounts us and would forge an even tighter knit of the playing group. Flying under the radar is better than the boys drinking their own bath water. The thing that does annoy is the lack of accountability for poor analysis. When we win the flag King will tie it back to his analysis. A self fulfilling prophecy. Much like race tipsters who crow about individual tips but refuse to provide any profit and loss analysis.