COVID & AFL 2021

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,909]

31 minutes ago, ManDee said:

All good points LDVC. I suppose my point is that the vaccine I have should be my choice not the Government's. And I do want to have a vaccination. 

Glad you want to have a vaccine. However, unless you're specifically trained in pharmacology or medicine, I question (with the greatest respect) whether you have enough knowledge to know what the best vaccine is for you. In other words, if I had a choice, I'm not sure I'm informed enough to know what vaccine would be best for me. I certainly don't question my doctor's choice of vaccine for influenza, tetanus, whooping cough or anything else.  

[ManDee 7,222]

17 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Glad you want to have a vaccine. However, unless you're specifically trained in pharmacology or medicine, I question (with the greatest respect) whether you have enough knowledge to know what the best vaccine is for you. In other words, if I had a choice, I'm not sure I'm informed enough to know what vaccine would be best for me. I certainly don't question my doctor's choice of vaccine for influenza, tetanus, whooping cough or anything else.  

I know some medical professionals that share my view, and some that don't. 

[titan_uranus 25,044]

2 hours ago, ManDee said:

1.I live in Australia 

2. Many borders are closed.

3. The UK has one of the highest immunisation rates in the world and are extending their lockdown.

So your point is?

Edit. I am pro vaccine, I  see no point in Astra Zeneca when alternatives are better.

 

My point is that arguing that people can/should avoid the AZ vaccine if they otherwise are eligible for it on the basis that no one has died from COVID in Australia in 2021 is a bad argument.

it's a bad argument because COVID cases have been low in 2021 by keeping borders closed and locking down areas when cases do suddenly manifest.

That's not a way to live, but it's the only way to live unless either we let COVID run rampant, in which cases deaths will skyrocket, or we vaccinate the population.

It's also a bad argument because there have been 3.8M doses of AZ given in Australia, for 60 clotting cases and two deaths. That's a clotting rate of 0.0015%, and a death rate of 0.00005%.

There have been no deaths from COVID in part because the number of cases is so low. Remember that overall Australia has had 30,302 cases of COVID in total, for 910 deaths. That's a death rate of 0.03%. 

So there have been 0 COVID deaths in 2021, but that's because there have been relatively few COVID cases (which improves our chances of treating the ones we do get). That does not mean it's OK to sit around and take ages to vaccinate.

[binman 43,806]

47 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

My point is that arguing that people can/should avoid the AZ vaccine if they otherwise are eligible for it on the basis that no one has died from COVID in Australia in 2021 is a bad argument.

it's a bad argument because COVID cases have been low in 2021 by keeping borders closed and locking down areas when cases do suddenly manifest.

That's not a way to live, but it's the only way to live unless either we let COVID run rampant, in which cases deaths will skyrocket, or we vaccinate the population.

It's also a bad argument because there have been 3.8M doses of AZ given in Australia, for 60 clotting cases and two deaths. That's a clotting rate of 0.0015%, and a death rate of 0.00005%.

There have been no deaths from COVID in part because the number of cases is so low. Remember that overall Australia has had 30,302 cases of COVID in total, for 910 deaths. That's a death rate of 0.03%. 

So there have been 0 COVID deaths in 2021, but that's because there have been relatively few COVID cases (which improves our chances of treating the ones we do get). That does not mean it's OK to sit around and take ages to vaccinate.

Exactly.

The problem, as i see it, is the classic example of macro versus micro - or individual good versus the commnity good.

We live in a democracy. It goes without saying people have the right to not get vaccinated or wait until they are able to get the one they want. 

But bottom line it is the interest of the community for as many people as possible to get vaccinated as quickly as possible. And as individuals who live in Australia we have have responsibility to play our part in achieving that goal.  

[Superunknown 4,223]

1 hour ago, Better days ahead said:

Is Australia keeping an covid vaccine adverse event register/database ? I'd like to keep an eye on.

 

btw big pharma doesn't want anyone using re-purposed drugs (off patent) because that means they won't make any money. It's the same reason, ivermectin. fluvoxamine and hydroxychloroquine are demonised.

Yes there is one, I think fed from hospital and other data plus consumer surveillance conducted via SMS follow up post innoculation.

TGA: link, about the system

 

To your second point, it might be because these aren't effective? AZ is apparently making very little of this vaccine c.f. Pfizer and Moderna, but someone can double check that.

[Kent 2,914]

1 hour ago, ManDee said:

I know some medical professionals that share my view, and some that don't. 

I also there are a few doctors I know that will not take the AZ vaccine preferring to wait

[Kent 2,914]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

My point is that arguing that people can/should avoid the AZ vaccine if they otherwise are eligible for it on the basis that no one has died from COVID in Australia in 2021 is a bad argument.

it's a bad argument because COVID cases have been low in 2021 by keeping borders closed and locking down areas when cases do suddenly manifest.

That's not a way to live, but it's the only way to live unless either we let COVID run rampant, in which cases deaths will skyrocket, or we vaccinate the population.

It's also a bad argument because there have been 3.8M doses of AZ given in Australia, for 60 clotting cases and two deaths. That's a clotting rate of 0.0015%, and a death rate of 0.00005%.

There have been no deaths from COVID in part because the number of cases is so low. Remember that overall Australia has had 30,302 cases of COVID in total, for 910 deaths. That's a death rate of 0.03%. 

So there have been 0 COVID deaths in 2021, but that's because there have been relatively few COVID cases (which improves our chances of treating the ones we do get). That does not mean it's OK to sit around and take ages to vaccinate.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Kent

[Jaded No More 68,974]

3 hours ago, binman said:

Based on current Aust data, your chance of death here from the AZ vax is 1 in 1.9M.

For context, Australian Geographic puts your odds of being struck by lightning at 1 in 1.6M.

You are more likely to be struck by lightning than to die of the AZ vax.

Don’t fear vaccination.

You are more likely to watch Melbourne win a flag than to die from the vaccine... put that into context! 

[Jara 1,153]

26 minutes ago, Jaded said:

You are more likely to watch Melbourne win a flag than to die from the vaccine... put that into context! 

Uh god...even with a year like this, I still feel like I'm more likely to die from the second jab than I am to see us win a flag - and nobody dies from the second jab (sorry - just joking but jeez it's been a long time - when we won our last I was barely old enough to know what it was all about)

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jara

[ManDee 7,222]

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

My point is that arguing that people can/should avoid the AZ vaccine if they otherwise are eligible for it on the basis that no one has died from COVID in Australia in 2021 is a bad argument.

it's a bad argument because COVID cases have been low in 2021 by keeping borders closed and locking down areas when cases do suddenly manifest.

That's not a way to live, but it's the only way to live unless either we let COVID run rampant, in which cases deaths will skyrocket, or we vaccinate the population.

It's also a bad argument because there have been 3.8M doses of AZ given in Australia, for 60 clotting cases and two deaths. That's a clotting rate of 0.0015%, and a death rate of 0.00005%.

There have been no deaths from COVID in part because the number of cases is so low. Remember that overall Australia has had 30,302 cases of COVID in total, for 910 deaths. That's a death rate of 0.03%. 

So there have been 0 COVID deaths in 2021, but that's because there have been relatively few COVID cases (which improves our chances of treating the ones we do get). That does not mean it's OK to sit around and take ages to vaccinate.

That was not my point. We should do our best to reach herd immunity, that is easier with the mRNA's. It may infact be impossible with Astra Zeneca at less than 90% take up. By the end of this year we will have taken delivery of 50 million doses of mRNA's. That covers the entire Australian population. There is a logistical problem delivering doses, some people will be last immunised regardless of desire. I choose to wait, others can go before me. The day they announce the over 60's can have Pfizer or Moderna I will book in. I will not be last, nor will I slow down herd immunity. 

 

Edit. I do not advocate that others do as I do, I simply state my intention. Research, read analyse ask questions but make up your own mind. I would never tell anyone to take or avoid any medication. Why should any government tell me which vaccine I can have now, knowing that that will change in time.

Edited June 18, 2021 by ManDee

[daisycutter 29,740]

24 minutes ago, ManDee said:

That was not my point. We should do our best to reach herd immunity, that is easier with the mRNA's. It may infact be impossible with Astra Zeneca at less than 90% take up. By the end of this year we will have taken delivery of 50 million doses of mRNA's. That covers the entire Australian population. There is a logistical problem delivering doses, some people will be last immunised regardless of desire. I choose to wait, others can go before me. The day they announce the over 60's can have Pfizer or Moderna I will book in. I will not be last, nor will I slow down herd immunity. 

 

Edit. I do not advocate that others do as I do, I simply state my intention. Research, read analyse ask questions but make up your own mind. I would never tell anyone to take or avoid any medication. Why should any government tell me which vaccine I can have now, knowing that that will change in time.

and we'll probably need to take a booster injection every year for some time, just like the flu vaccine

maybe they will eventually be able to combine the flu and covid vaccines into a single jab

fun times

[titan_uranus 25,044]

@Kent - you appear to have bolded the part of my previous post citing the death rate from COVID in Australia as 0.03%.

Yes, that's low. But it is 20 times higher than the AZ death rate.

25 minutes ago, ManDee said:

That was not my point. We should do our best to reach herd immunity, that is easier with the mRNA's. It may infact be impossible with Astra Zeneca at less than 90% take up. By the end of this year we will have taken delivery of 50 million doses of mRNA's. That covers the entire Australian population. There is a logistical problem delivering doses, some people will be last immunised regardless of desire. I choose to wait, others can go before me. The day they announce the over 60's can have Pfizer or Moderna I will book in. I will not be last, nor will I slow down herd immunity. 

 

Edit. I do not advocate that others do as I do, I simply state my intention. Research, read analyse ask questions but make up your own mind. I would never tell anyone to take or avoid any medication. Why should any government tell me which vaccine I can have now, knowing that that will change in time.

The bolded part is the problem.

As we keep waiting, we keep exposing Australians to:

1. Closed borders
2. Lockdowns
3. An impacted economy
4. COVID itself

And you never know what will happen with supply chains, production, or further variants of COVID that may impact that timeframe (all of the government's stated timeframes on the rollout have been blown out so far).

If you are over 60 and you are choosing not to be vaccinated in the face of medical advice and evidence which suggests it is the best thing both for you and for the population generally, in my view that is unreasonable.

[ManDee 7,222]

Can anyone explain to me the logic behind the Australian government ordering 65 million doses of mRNA's? Keep in mind each dose is approximately ten times the price of Astra Zeneca

[ManDee 7,222]

7 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

@Kent - you appear to have bolded the part of my previous post citing the death rate from COVID in Australia as 0.03%.

Yes, that's low. But it is 20 times higher than the AZ death rate.

The bolded part is the problem.

As we keep waiting, we keep exposing Australians to:

1. Closed borders
2. Lockdowns
3. An impacted economy
4. COVID itself

And you never know what will happen with supply chains, production, or further variants of COVID that may impact that timeframe (all of the government's stated timeframes on the rollout have been blown out so far).

If you are over 60 and you are choosing not to be vaccinated in the face of medical advice and evidence which suggests it is the best thing both for you and for the population generally, in my view that is unreasonable.

Titan_uranus, exactly which countries are doing better than Australia? 

You may say that I am unreasonable but you fail to recognise that there is a waiting list for immunisation. The reality is if I choose to be immunised asap (currently a 2 week wait if stocks available) I push others that want to be immunised back. So how is that unreasonable? As for medical advice, I have stated that opinions are mixed.

[old dee 23,872]

26 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

@Kent - you appear to have bolded the part of my previous post citing the death rate from COVID in Australia as 0.03%.

Yes, that's low. But it is 20 times higher than the AZ death rate.

The bolded part is the problem.

As we keep waiting, we keep exposing Australians to:

1. Closed borders
2. Lockdowns
3. An impacted economy
4. COVID itself

And you never know what will happen with supply chains, production, or further variants of COVID that may impact that timeframe (all of the government's stated timeframes on the rollout have been blown out so far).

If you are over 60 and you are choosing not to be vaccinated in the face of medical advice and evidence which suggests it is the best thing both for you and for the population generally, in my view that is unreasonable.

I agree with the majority of the above tu. But there is one problem and that is the changing recommendations. A few short weeks ago the Astra vaccine was fine, then people under 40 should not have it, then under 50 now over 60 it is ok. It is not hard to see why people are suspicious, their attitude is what next no one should have it? Now I have had the first dose and will have the second ASAP. But i now don’t blame people for being extra cautious. This whole thing has been rushed for good reason but we are seeing some of the “benefits “ of that rush. 
PS. Am friend said to me this morning looks like all us oldies are getting the second grade one, I guess we don’t matter, the nursing home residents all over again. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by old dee

[Superunknown 4,223]

15 minutes ago, old dee said:

I agree with the majority of the above tu. But there is one problem and that is the changing recommendations. A few short weeks ago the Astra vaccine was fine, then people under 40 should not have it, then under 50 now over 60 it is ok. It is not hard to see why people are suspicious, their attitude is what next no one should have it? Now I have had the first dose and will have the second ASAP. But i now don’t blame people for being extra cautious. This whole thing has been rushed for good reason but we are seeing some of the “benefits “ of that rush. 
PS. Am friend said to me this morning looks like all us oldies are getting the second grade one, I guess we don’t matter, the nursing home residents all over again. 

Most RACF will be on Pfizer. 

[ManDee 7,222]

Canada has banned 2nd doses of Astra Zeneca, recommending 2nd doses be mRNA's. Recommending mRNA's for all.

 

Edit. Apparently based on German studies.

 

Edit 2. Interesting reading! https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/immunization/national-advisory-committee-on-immunization-naci/recommendations-use-covid-19-vaccines/summary-statement-june-17-2021.html

Edited June 18, 2021 by ManDee

[old dee 23,872]

Just now, ManDee said:

So Canada has banned 2nd doses of Astra Zeneca, recommending 2nd doses be mRNA's. Recommending mRNA's for all.

And they wonder why people are reluctant. 

[ManDee 7,222]

47 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Can anyone explain to me the logic behind the Australian government ordering 65 million doses of mRNA's? Keep in mind each dose is approximately ten times the price of Astra Zeneca

Thought I would quote myself. My guess is because the government knows more than they are telling us. We will all be getting mRNA's 

[old dee 23,872]

15 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

Most RACF will be on Pfizer. 

Sorry for my stupidity but what is RACF? 

[Superunknown 4,223]

8 minutes ago, old dee said:

Sorry for my stupidity but what is RACF? 

Residential Aged Care Facilities: Pfizer is still (or should still be) the vaccine being administered to RACF residents (and I think workers). Link.

[Superunknown 4,223]

11 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Thought I would quote myself. My guess is because the government knows more than they are telling us. We will all be getting mRNA's 

Well, not quite. AZ continues to be administered at scale.

If you mean into the future, perhaps. There is Novavax and now the BCG TB vaccination depending on the trials currently underway. BCG a live TB virus, Novavax (protein) so there will be options. AU has 50 million Novavax on the way (presumably once approved).

[ManDee 7,222]

6 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

Well, not quite. AZ continues to be administered at scale.

If you mean into the future, perhaps. There is Novavax and now the BCG TB vaccination depending on the trials currently underway. BCG a live TB virus, Novavax (protein) so there will be options. AU has 50 million Novavax on the way (presumably once approved).

Sorry Super I should have said eventually getting mRNA's as their adaptability for future variants is superior. 

[Superunknown 4,223]

3 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Sorry Super I should have said eventually getting mRNA's as their adaptability for future variants is superior. 

No need for apology. You are of course right.

Let's not forget why there's a rush to get vaccinated - lot of vested interests want the borders open (perhaps not the RBA, as they wish to see wages growth which now looks to be occuring. Shock horror! Training locals!).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

 

1. Closed borders
2. Lockdowns
3. An impacted economy
4. COVID itself

And ...

5. No footy

I’m not being facetious. The no footy thing is taking it’s toll on me from a mental health perspective. I’m sure I’m not alone in that regard. 
And I love all the other great points you made. ?