Trump v. Biden

[Macca 17,032]

44 minutes ago, Jaded said:

The fact that so many old people live in Florida and how deadly Covid is to those people, should hopefully be enough to win the Democrats the election. 
I just don’t understand how, regardless of your political views, you could possibly vote for Trump. He is a liar. He is unsuitable for the role. He is unstable. He has done so much damage and there is the blood of over 200,000 Americans on his hands. He is a disaster. 
 

Edit: and I can never understand how women work for or vote for him. He is the biggest anti women president we’ve had in decades. If I was a women in the US I would be terrified of a Trump win. 

Don't forget that many vote through their hip pocket and any number of people can't stand left wing political party's.  Or left wing anything ... especially in America

What we're seeing is anothet side of America that has always existed. 

Oddly enough the USA's left wing is nowhere as left it is here in Oz.  Or in European Countries. 

I view the Democrats as a scaled down right wing party.  They are not exactly socialists Jaded

Edited October 9, 2020 by Macca

[Wrecker45 3,378]

On 10/1/2020 at 11:04 PM, Macca said:

Their system is their system and Trump won fair & square under that system last time.  Most of the extra votes came out of California & New York

And we all knew that going in.  The key is winning the Swing States & Rust Belt States.

And that's what Trump did last time.  But my argument is a totally neutral one.  I wouldn't vote for any of them

The extreme Alt Right are as bad as the extreme loonie left.  In fact,  both have a lot in common.  Telling us how to live our lives is the common theme.  And neither side have much of a clue so why should anyone even listen to them?

But people view their side of politics like they follow their favourite sporting team.  They're all in,  almost totally biased and therefore almost totally compromised.  It's all about the winning,  not governance

One of them will win and not much will change.  The minimum wage is way below poverty level,  their gun laws are archaic and there's nearly 3 million of them in jail

It's just a mess of a country

 

Super analysis.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:57 PM, Jaded said:

The fact that so many old people live in Florida and how deadly Covid is to those people, should hopefully be enough to win the Democrats the election. 
I just don’t understand how, regardless of your political views, you could possibly vote for Trump. He is a liar. He is unsuitable for the role. He is unstable. He has done so much damage and there is the blood of over 200,000 Americans on his hands. He is a disaster. 
 

Edit: and I can never understand how women work for or vote for him. He is the biggest anti women president we’ve had in decades. If I was a women in the US I would be terrified of a Trump win. 

Jaded out of interest could you vote for Daniel Andrews who has the blood of 800+ on his hands?

He like Trump is also a compulsive liar.

The body count is nowhere near 200,000 but per capita it's similar.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

On 10/1/2020 at 10:08 PM, Jaded said:

Their system is flawed. Hillary should have been president. 3,000,000 extra votes and she loses to this muppet. 

Whether Trump wins or loses, the damage is done with a 6-3 conservative majority in the Supreme Court. 
Can’t wait for them to cancel the health care and abortion bills. Welcome back to 1958. 

Hillary spent her election campaign asking Trump if he would accept the election result only to still not accept it herself, 4 years on. Hypocrite.

Hillary was having meetings with strange countries in her role as Vice President and low and behold Bill would get to talk there for fees of US$1m +. Corrupt to the core.

Hillary was sending emails from her private server, which she deleted before handing over. Completely breaching the security of the US.

I would have voted Trump at the last election to keep her out. He is an [censored] but half way through term he had the economic and employment numbers looking good. I could ignore his obvious personal flaws.

A majority of Australian's would say Trump was always unhinged and he probably was but since he said people should drink bleach I think he has taken it to another level. He seems to me to have lost the plot.

I can't warm to Biden at all. I bet on and barracked for Amy Klobuchar to be the nominee.

[dl4e 5,851]

There is no way that Biden will see out his term of presidency if he wins. He is a total puppet who has to bow to the left of the democrats but also appease the middle ground of the democrats so that they may vote for him. He is now stuffing up the supreme court packing and being a total hypocrite on taxes and fracking. Trump is just Trump. A fat mouth who loves the sound of his own voice. He did however run a good economy before covid where he became completly unstuck.

The person that people who should be paying attention to is Kamala Harris. She is the one who will become president if dementia head Biden wins. She is a total snake. She was put in vice president by the left wing of the democrats as part of their usurping of power. If you get a chance watch her debate with Pence in its entirity. A lying little piece that Pence took to the cleaners and he did not even have to try hard.

You have to feel sorry for the yanks.

[Ted Lasso 19,547]

I'm no Trump/Pence fan, but i was a bit shocked at how easily Pence was able to dismantle Harris in the debate, it really shows that if a more calm, sensible voice led the republican agenda against Biden, i think they'd be really difficult to beat. 

Trumps biggest enemy is himself.

I don't think Joe Biden is doing himself any favours this week by refusing to answer questions around court packing, his strategy seems to be, "I'm not Trump" which was very similar to Clintons, and i'm genuinely concerned we may see a similar result. 

Either a Trump win, or Biden wins, but it's so close that he can't do anything and the Trump supporters argue for 4 years the election was rigged. 

[Jara 1,153]

4 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Jaded out of interest could you vote for Daniel Andrews who has the blood of 800+ on his hands?

He like Trump is also a compulsive liar.

The body count is nowhere near 200,000 but per capita it's similar.

Hey Wrecker

 

Hope you're doing well.

 

Are the death rates really that similar? Some numerate person might want to do the maths (sorry, I'm hopeless - most embarrassing) - we've lost 800 out of 6.5 million, they've lost 215,000 out of 328 million - theirs looks about three-times worse to me.

 

Also, don't forget that 80% of the Victorian deaths happened in for-profit aged care homes for which the Morrison Government had responsibility for infection control. In the Andrews-controlled aged care homes there were no deaths. (no way am I denying that the Andrews government was largely responsible, but I don't want people to forget Morrison's role. As it stands, Andrews is crucified 24/7 by the Murdoch hacks, while Morrison gives a quick 'oh, sorry bout that', then gets back to the sausage sizzle) The relevant Liberal Minister won't talk to the press, and Morrison wouldn't allow his staff to even appear at the Ruby Princess inquiry. 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

16 minutes ago, Jara said:

Hey Wrecker

 

Hope you're doing well.

 

Are the death rates really that similar? Some numerate person might want to do the maths (sorry, I'm hopeless - most embarrassing) - we've lost 800 out of 6.5 million, they've lost 215,000 out of 328 million - theirs looks about three-times worse to me.

 

Also, don't forget that 80% of the Victorian deaths happened in for-profit aged care homes for which the Morrison Government had responsibility for infection control. In the Andrews-controlled aged care homes there were no deaths. (no way am I denying that the Andrews government was largely responsible, but I don't want people to forget Morrison's role. As it stands, Andrews is crucified 24/7 by the Murdoch hacks, while Morrison gives a quick 'oh, sorry bout that', then gets back to the sausage sizzle) The relevant Liberal Minister won't talk to the press, and Morrison wouldn't allow his staff to even appear at the Ruby Princess inquiry. 

Jara my old sparring partner good to hear from you.

The genomic testing attributes 800+ deaths to the bungled hotel quarantine scheme. All his staff and public servants have selective amnesia until they quit.

Trump has had 200,000 deaths (and I hate him now) but it's more like the flu in the US,  in that, its contagious and can kill you.

[Jara 1,153]

Hey Wrecker - thanks. Hope you and yours are well. 

 

Sure, I realize it sprang from the quarantine hotels - all I'm saying is that the poor management of the for-profit aged care system was largely responsible for the spread into the places where the vast majority of the deaths occurred.

 

Morrison can't just bury it in the sausages. We know people working in aged care - sounds frightening - no  PPE (a friend of my daughter's was told she had to supply her own PPE - in May!) - no infection training, no RNs on duty, staff who'd only done a 6-week course, casual hours - all so that a handful of ASX-listed companies could make a profit.   

 

I'm not excusing Andrews one iota - most amazing thing - I said on another post - my wife works in Emergency at a public hospital - they still haven't all got individually-fitted masks - (they're being phased in, but it's taking ages to fit all the staff)  - can you believe it? Virus has only been raging here for seven months...

Edited October 13, 2020 by Jara

[Wrecker45 3,378]

1 hour ago, Jara said:

Hey Wrecker - thanks. Hope you and yours are well. 

 

Sure, I realize it sprang from the quarantine hotels - all I'm saying is that the poor management of the for-profit aged care system was largely responsible for the spread into the places where the vast majority of the deaths occurred.

 

Morrison can't just bury it in the sausages. We know people working in aged care - sounds frightening - no  PPE (a friend of my daughter's was told she had to supply her own PPE - in May!) - no infection training, no RNs on duty, staff who'd only done a 6-week course, casual hours - all so that a handful of ASX-listed companies could make a profit.   

 

I'm not excusing Andrews one iota - most amazing thing - I said on another post - my wife works in Emergency at a public hospital - they still haven't all got individually-fitted masks - (they're being phased in, but it's taking ages to fit all the staff)  - can you believe it? Virus has only been raging here for seven months...

Why are you saying the for profit aged care are to blame?

My understanding is it the security company without even being on the Government's approved list that spread it 

[Jara 1,153]

Obviously, for the reasons I outlined above: the businesses paid by the Morrison Government to protect the elderly put their own profits above the lives of those in their care. 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

10 hours ago, Jara said:

Obviously, for the reasons I outlined above: the businesses paid by the Morrison Government to protect the elderly put their own profits above the lives of those in their care. 

I'm not sure I understand your argument. As far as I know Covid doesn't discriminate between protit or not for profit aged care facilities.

The 2nd wave spread of the virus in Victoria happened as a result of the hotel quarantine disaster. This lies (pun intended) with Andrews.

[Wobbly Bob 79]

Take it to 'The Virus' thread, boys.  This one's meant to be about Trump vs. Biden.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Wobbly Bob
!

[Jara 1,153]

Well if you insist, but they are rather intimately connected. 

[Jara 1,153]

23 hours ago, dl4e said:

There is no way that Biden will see out his term of presidency if he wins. He is a total puppet who has to bow to the left of the democrats but also appease the middle ground of the democrats so that they may vote for him. He is now stuffing up the supreme court packing and being a total hypocrite on taxes and fracking. Trump is just Trump. A fat mouth who loves the sound of his own voice. He did however run a good economy before covid where he became completly unstuck.

The person that people who should be paying attention to is Kamala Harris. She is the one who will become president if dementia head Biden wins. She is a total snake. She was put in vice president by the left wing of the democrats as part of their usurping of power. If you get a chance watch her debate with Pence in its entirity. A lying little piece that Pence took to the cleaners and he did not even have to try hard.

You have to feel sorry for the yanks.

Just catching up with this thread.  Each to his own, I suppose, but I don't get it. Why is Kamala Harris a 'snake'? A 'lying little piece'? What are you basing that on? (I'd hardly even heard of her until a few months ago)

[dieter 3,325]

23 hours ago, dl4e said:

There is no way that Biden will see out his term of presidency if he wins. He is a total puppet who has to bow to the left of the democrats but also appease the middle ground of the democrats so that they may vote for him. He is now stuffing up the supreme court packing and being a total hypocrite on taxes and fracking. Trump is just Trump. A fat mouth who loves the sound of his own voice. He did however run a good economy before covid where he became completly unstuck.

The person that people who should be paying attention to is Kamala Harris. She is the one who will become president if dementia head Biden wins. She is a total snake. She was put in vice president by the left wing of the democrats as part of their usurping of power. If you get a chance watch her debate with Pence in its entirity. A lying little piece that Pence took to the cleaners and he did not even have to try hard.

You have to feel sorry for the yanks.

Amazing what blinkers can do to a person's receptors. I know, she's also a Communist because Trump said so. Enough said....

[dieter 3,325]

3 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not sure I understand your argument. As far as I know Covid doesn't discriminate between protit or not for profit aged care facilities.

The 2nd wave spread of the virus in Victoria happened as a result of the hotel quarantine disaster. This lies (pun intended) with Andrews.

THis might give you some perspective:

Where did Victoria go so wrong with contact tracing and have they fixed it?

October 13, 2020 4.54pm AEDT

Author

1. Catherine Bennett

   Chair in Epidemiology, Deakin University

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Victoria’s contact tracing system has faced criticism in the past for being inefficient, with officials flying to NSW in September to learn from that state.

Comparisons are difficult in a pandemic because each outbreak has its own unique characteristics. That said, there are some key features that underpin the differing responses of NSW and Victoria when it comes to contact tracing.

Fundamentally, NSW’s system of decentralised local area health districts meant when the second wave hit, that state was able to draw on teams embedded in their local communities to manage contact tracing. These teams worked independently but also in concert under the mothership of NSW Health.

In Victoria, a legacy of cuts left the Department of Health and Human Services under-resourced and highly centralised, meaning there was a smaller base upon which to build the surge contact tracing capacity (with some contact tracers coming from interstate).

Our mission is to share knowledge and inform decisions.

About us

This was further challenged with the rapid rise in daily new cases, from 65 to 288 in one week alone in July. Systems had to be developed quickly to manage large quantities of data and feed it back to a central hub. The state had to “build the aeroplane while flying”.

Much has changed since then, and for the better. Some hard lessons have been learned along the way but the contact tracing system in Victoria is now very comprehensive and increasingly robust.

Melbourne’s Chadstone outbreak is a reminder of how quickly clusters can grow. But Victorians can be optimistic the state’s contact tracing has improved significantly in the last few months. James Ross/AAP

---

Read more: A 14-day rolling average of 5 new daily cases is the wrong trigger for easing Melbourne lockdown. Let's look at 'under investigation' cases instead

---

Community engagement, local knowledge

Community engagement and local knowledge might seem like buzzwords but in a pandemic, they’re vital to ring-fencing a cluster.

NSW’s system of devolved public health units and teams meant when local outbreaks occurred, locally embedded health workers were at an advantage. They’re already linked with local area health providers for testing, they already have relationships with community members and community leaders, and they know the physical layout of the area.

If you’re doing a contact tracing interview with someone and they’re talking about a key landmark at a certain time of day, you can visualise it and understand what it means in terms of risk.

What’s crucial is a nuanced understanding of local, social, and cultural factors that may facilitate spread or affect how people understand self-isolation and what’s being asked of them. It can also make a critical difference in encouraging people to come forward for testing.

It’s not just about making sure you have materials printed in the right language. It’s about understanding how people view the health system from their context. If you have people who come from a part of the world with a health system that operates differently to ours, they will bring that understanding with them.

If local health workers and contact tracers are already part of a community, they can bring that expert knowledge into the mix; they can make sure public health messaging is meaningful for local communities.

New South Wales’ decentralised public health teams know their local areas well, helping them conduct timely contact tracing. Dan HimBrechts/AAP

When NSW’s second wave came with the cases at the Crossroads Hotel, they were on high alert, with a system ready to jump on it and chase down every lead.

Victoria had to build its contact tracing capacity on the hop. That local knowledge had to be developed and integrated as they went, often when dealing with large and complex local clusters.

---

Read more: Victoria's coronavirus contact tracing is about to get faster. Let's make it the first step in a larger digital boost

---

Evolution is underway

Since August, the Australian Department of Health has published the Common Operating Picture, which provides a weekly traffic light report of the coronavirus situation across Australia.

In the earlier part of the second wave, you can see Victoria gets an amber or red light for some elements relating to case notifications and outstanding case interviews — in other words, its system was under stress. That’s understandable; when an outbreak gets to a certain size, strain is inevitable.

It has been impressive to see Victoria’s more recent progression to green, meaning the system is coping well.

 

Coronavirus common operating picture – 8 October 2020. Common Operating Picture/Australian Department of Health

In fact, the contact tracing system in Victoria is now so comprehensive that in Kilmore the department trialled a system of tracing “close contacts of close contacts”. When a confirmed case is identified, the contact tracers track down that person’s close contacts (people with whom they’ve spent 15 minutes or more). They then also track down the close contacts of each of those close contacts.

It’s incredibly resource- and labour-intensive, but it’s also a game-changer that will allow outbreaks to be contained quickly. Hopefully, this will be the standard approach state-wide where the circumstances permit and, combined with good cooperation from the public in getting tested early, it’s likely to be very effective.

Victoria has also got better over time at naming exposure sites clearly (in earlier days it could be quite vague).

You can see the evolution of the system happening. What’s admirable in Victoria is they did set about rebuilding their response, including creating regional hubs, while case numbers were high.

Public co-operation matters

I have faith in the design of Victoria’s contact tracing system now, and Kilmore is showing us how it can be rolled out to good effect. Half the latest batch of contact tests results came back on Tuesday, all negative.

There will always be room for improvement and we will learn as we go.

NSW’s Crossroads Hotel outbreak showed the state’s public health team was set up and ready to conduct efficient contact tracing. James Gourley/AAP

Key to the system working is people cooperating with masks, hygiene and personal distancing, along with broader critical rules limiting home visits and not leaving home if unwell.

Most important is getting tested early, whether you have symptoms or have been at a known exposure site, do it and do it fast. This is how we limit the risk of spread, and reduce the risk families and immediate close contacts will even need to be isolated, much less deal with being infected.

People on the frontline are working incredibly hard within a system being rebuilt around them. They are engaging with people in the community who are frustrated and getting mixed messages.

It pays for all of us to remember the effectiveness of our public health system and Victoria’s public health response is down to the sum of people’s contributions. We all have a role to play.

[Wobbly Bob 79]

1 hour ago, Jara said:

they are rather intimately connected. 

No Jara, playing the blame game for COVID in Victoria, Australia has zilch to do with the US Presidential Elections.

[Axis of Bob 11,839]

And this is why we can't have nice things in the General Discussion forum.

[old55 23,687]

1 hour ago, Axis of Bob said:

And this is why we can't have nice things in the General Discussion forum.

It's like how most threads in the football forums ultimately turn to a "Goodwin" thread.

[Adam The God 30,403]

Trump is a symptom of the Left's surrender to neoliberalism. Just as the Five Star Movement in Italy and the populist Left Front in France are symptoms of the Left's tacit implementation of neoliberal economic reform throughout the 1960s-1980s (Denis Healey, Bill Hayden, Francois Mitterrand, Jacques Delors, Bob Hawke and Paul Keating for starters). The EU is a neoliberal disaster created (mostly) by neoliberals on the Left.

I disagree with Trump's jingoistic rhetoric and everything about him personally, but I think the rest can learn from the increased domestic, somewhat isolationist policy pivot. 

Globalisation is inherently neoliberal, concerned with the free flow of big business capital across borders, making our countries, environment and markets increasingly more unstable. As Minsky said (the guy who predicted the GFC), stability breeds instability. 

Trump's rhetoric is straight from the dictator playbook and America will be in trouble if he gets reelected, but if Biden gets in and maintains the status quo, things will only get worse internally.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by A F

[hardtack 10,593]

On 10/13/2020 at 9:32 AM, Wrecker45 said:

Jaded out of interest could you vote for Daniel Andrews who has the blood of 800+ on his hands?

He like Trump is also a compulsive liar.

The body count is nowhere near 200,000 but per capita it's similar.

Not really... on a per capita basis, the US is currently sitting at 666 per million (somewhat symbolic number) while Victoria is currently sitting at 127 per million. 

If you compare states in the US with similar populations to Victoria, I think you'll find that Victoria is barely a blip on the radar... in fact only one, Wisconsin comes anywhere near being close with 259 per million.

That doesn't excuse him for the negligence (although I'd say no one at the time expected the use of private security to be the disaster it was), but let's not overstate things to make a point.

Edited October 14, 2020 by hardtack

[hardtack 10,593]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:59 AM, dl4e said:

There is no way that Biden will see out his term of presidency if he wins. He is a total puppet who has to bow to the left of the democrats but also appease the middle ground of the democrats so that they may vote for him. He is now stuffing up the supreme court packing and being a total hypocrite on taxes and fracking. Trump is just Trump. A fat mouth who loves the sound of his own voice. He did however run a good economy before covid where he became completly unstuck.

The person that people who should be paying attention to is Kamala Harris. She is the one who will become president if dementia head Biden wins. She is a total snake. She was put in vice president by the left wing of the democrats as part of their usurping of power. If you get a chance watch her debate with Pence in its entirity. A lying little piece that Pence took to the cleaners and he did not even have to try hard.

You have to feel sorry for the yanks.

What a shocker of a comment... "a lying little PIECE"??  Really?? 

Putting aside that the misogynistic phrasing, I watched the debate in its entirety live, and there is no way that Pence took Harris to the cleaners.  He continually ignored the the rules of the debate, revisited earlier questions rather than address the current question and continually resorted to "apple pie and motherhood" responses in an effort to somehow convince the public that he's worth voting for because he's a nice guy; he was ducking and weaving like a fighter on his last legs.  Harris on the other hand, addressed each question directly, rarely returning to the previous question, rarely running over the allocated time, generally following the rules.  Apart from the fracking claims (which their policy remains very unclear), what else did she say that deserves her being labelled a snake?

"He is now stuffing up the supreme court packing and being a total hypocrite on taxes and fracking."  I don't know enough about their stance on fracking (do you? There's so much misinformation from both sides that the truth often gets lost), but with regards to the stacking of the supreme court, you have to be kidding me!  It was McConnell who blocked Obama's attempt to install a new judge because "it was an election year" and that was 300 days out from an election... yet McConnell is happy for Trump to install a new judge while the corpse is still warm, just a couple of months out from an election??  Give me a break!  As for being a hypocrite on taxes, Biden has been entirely transparent with his taxes and business dealings while Trump has continually, for four years, refused to reveal his.  He claims to have donated his presidential salary ($400k approx), but in effect, he his giving it to governmental departments, not all of which would benefit those in need; all while he is earning $1m per day from allowing Mar a Lago to be used for government business and his golfing activities.  He claims to be introducing a better healthcare system than Obamacare, yet in 4 years has produced nothing and, despite his claims to the contrary now that an election is on the horizon, he intended to remove eligibility due to underlying conditions at a time when no American can afford that.  And all of that is just for starters.

[dieter 3,325]

3 hours ago, A F said:

Trump is a symptom of the Left's surrender to neoliberalism. Just as the Five Star Movement in Italy and the populist Left Front in France are symptoms of the Left's tacit implementation of neoliberal economic reform throughout the 1960s-1980s (Denis Healey, Bill Hayden, Francois Mitterrand, Jacques Delors, Bob Hawke and Paul Keating for starters). The EU is a neoliberal disaster created (mostly) by neoliberals on the Left.

I disagree with Trump's jingoistic rhetoric and everything about him personally, but I think the rest can learn from the increased domestic, somewhat isolationist policy pivot. 

Globalisation is inherently neoliberal, concerned with the free flow of big business capital across borders, making our countries, environment and markets increasingly more unstable. As Minsky said (the guy who predicted the GFC), stability breeds instability. 

Trump's rhetoric is straight from the dictator playbook and America will be in trouble if he gets reelected, but if Biden gets in and maintains the status quo, things will only get worse internally.

 

Unfortunately, the 'status quo' in the US means one thing: more war. Biden, like Hilary, is a warmonger. The world needs to quake in fear if Trump wine, equally so if Biden wins. The US is a basket case.

[Adam The God 30,403]

27 minutes ago, dieter said:

Unfortunately, the 'status quo' in the US means one thing: more war. Biden, like Hilary, is a warmonger. The world needs to quake in fear if Trump wine, equally so if Biden wins. The US is a basket case.

I reckon we'll see a pivot soon in the Western world. Stagnant wages, increased market speculation and financialisation driving GDP, and too many people finding themselves on or below the poverty line. There'll be anarchy unless the government does more.

Lots of the business community need a change. They want stability and market deregulation offers anything but. Speculators love the instability, but they're ultimately gambling.

The US may be a basket case, but we've got some problems too. NAIRU has never worked. Look at Japan. It has maintained full employment and runs one of the strongest closed economies in the world, with a modest trade surplus and careful capital controls, and a centre-right government. 

The golden age of capitalism was driven by both sides of politics pursuing a full employment agenda. Menzies used to crow about his massive fiscal deficits.

Since Keating everyone's been bragging about their fiscal surpluses, which drain wealth from the private sector and if you run them consecutively, always trigger recessions or exponentially increase the private debt burden, and then eventually trigger recessions.

These Left and Right labels mean practically nothing in the neoliberal age. Some of the neoliberal nonsense I've heard the Greens sprout is proof of that and the ALP still praise Keating, one of our worst treasurers in a line of absolute failures in this country.

Edited October 14, 2020 by A F