Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[Adam The God 30,097]

7 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

There was a graphic on On the Couch that showed Melb as no 18 for D50 stoppage goals . If I read that correctly it shows that teams aren't bombing it on and are happy with short kicks or dirty balls into our D50. If they can score, great for them. If they can't then they force a stoppage with the likelihood of scoring based on the stat above being quite high. We are leaking a lot of goals this way.

It also means our strategy of scoring from turnover is under huge pressure as well.

Scrappy kicks and dirty entries don't lead to direct scores though. They're coming from stopages, so that's a structures thing from stoppages.

And if you look at us statistically across rhe year, we're not struggling for centre clearances. We're good in that area. We're struggling at stoppage clearances.

[jnrmac 20,053]

32 minutes ago, A F said:

Scrappy kicks and dirty entries don't lead to direct scores though. They're coming from stopages, so that's a structures thing from stoppages.

And if you look at us statistically across rhe year, we're not struggling for centre clearances. We're good in that area. We're struggling at stoppage clearances.

They can do though and our ability to clear D50 ground balls isn't great.

[Adam The God 30,097]

42 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

They can do though and our ability to clear D50 ground balls isn't great.

That's a forward and midfield pressure thing though, not a stoppages structure thing.

I agree, we look ordinary at ground level. 2021 we were very good in that area. Not perfect, but very solid.

[beelzebub 23,312]

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

There was a graphic on On the Couch that showed Melb as no 18 for D50 stoppage goals . If I read that correctly it shows that teams aren't bombing it on and are happy with short kicks or dirty balls into our D50. If they can score, great for them. If they can't then they force a stoppage with the likelihood of scoring based on the stat above being quite high. We are leaking a lot of goals this way.

It also means our strategy of scoring from turnover is under huge pressure as well.

We've been worked out....now we get worked over.. Meanwhile brains trust still living in the cuckoo cloud of 2021.  What is truly frustrating and irritating is weve seen alternative play ( style..game..whatever )   and then it went..  poooff into the ether

[Jaded No More 68,855]

4 hours ago, Gator said:

Nathan Buckley had an interesting observation re our stoppage structures On the Couch last night.  As you'd know, he viewed the game from the opposition coach's box on Saturday.

In essence he said that most teams play their wings as defensive sweepers, so there's cover if the opposition wins the footy and tries to forward exit the stoppage.  They're set up to provide defensive pressure as needs be.  Melbourne's wingers tend to play ''tight'' and don't provide that defensive cover.  This means that all our mids are basically off side if the opposition manage to break away from a stoppage.  They get cleaner entries while our mids are left chasing tail.

The poor form of Langdon this season has hurt us more than I think we've realised.

[demon3165 2,686]

4 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

The poor form of Langdon this season has hurt us more than I think we've realised.

Spot on, all he does now is play boundary side he has become lazy, plenty of running but just around the boundary, you watch Sidebottom he's the link man, Landon did that in 21 but has stopped doing that as I have said before not impressed with Yze as a midfield coach he is not reactive when things are not working.

[PartyTimeJohnny 537]

Goodwin kept relying on Dees being #1 in Scoring in his presser today. 
It's genuinely a selective stat. We've played the 3 worst teams and have the hardest run home. 
I wish someone would challenge him on the Dees being #13 for clearances , #15 contested marks and 9th effective disposals despite having a relative easy run so far. 

[PartyTimeJohnny 537]

8 minutes ago, PartyTimeJohnny said:

Goodwin kept relying on Dees being #1 in Scoring in his presser today. 
It's genuinely a selective stat. We've played the 3 worst teams and have the hardest run home. 
I wish someone would challenge him on the Dees being #13 for clearances , #15 contested marks and 9th effective disposals despite having a relative easy run so far. 

Just to add to this, year we've accrued the most points to rd 11, but 45.22% of our points from 11 games has come from the bottom three developing teams. 
Raises potential for being labelled flat track bullies I reckon. 

[beelzebub 23,312]

18 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

The poor form of Langdon this season has hurt us more than I think we've realised.

Do we know what he's told to do ?? 

Might give context  🤷

Certainly less effective 

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

55 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

The poor form of Langdon this season has hurt us more than I think we've realised.

 

47 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

Spot on, all he does now is play boundary side he has become lazy, plenty of running but just around the boundary, you watch Sidebottom he's the link man, Landon did that in 21 but has stopped doing that as I have said before not impressed with Yze as a midfield coach he is not reactive when things are not working.

There are so many threads for indulging in opinion based (generally inaccurate) bagging of players. This is the one place I can come to just talk about strategy and observations on trends people have noticed and things we might try. I know I'm not a mod, I don't have any authority but, couldn't you please just take this to gameday or postgame? I promise there are tons of people who will join in a pile on with you there

[demon3165 2,686]

31 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

 

There are so many threads for indulging in opinion based (generally inaccurate) bagging of players. This is the one place I can come to just talk about strategy and observations on trends people have noticed and things we might try. I know I'm not a mod, I don't have any authority but, couldn't you please just take this to gameday or postgame? I promise there are tons of people who will join in a pile on with you there

And I was answering a question about Langdon involving the thread,  try reading, if you don't like it, don't reply it's that simple!!

[Jaded No More 68,855]

1 hour ago, FlashInThePan said:

 

There are so many threads for indulging in opinion based (generally inaccurate) bagging of players. This is the one place I can come to just talk about strategy and observations on trends people have noticed and things we might try. I know I'm not a mod, I don't have any authority but, couldn't you please just take this to gameday or postgame? I promise there are tons of people who will join in a pile on with you there

How is this a pile on? Langdon’s output this season is well below his previous season output. 
I simply said that it’s hurting our ball movement given he’s such a key player. 

[Adam The God 30,097]

15 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

How is this a pile on? Langdon’s output this season is well below his previous season output. 
I simply said that it’s hurting our ball movement given he’s such a key player. 

If he's playing a defensive role and blocking up space and defending ball movement (given he's quicker than Hunter), how does that change the conversation?

Langdon no longer plays the attacking role, so to expect the same attacking output is perhaps pretty unfair.

Would we like more out of him? Possibly, but we don't know the internal KPIs.

[Jaded No More 68,855]

1 minute ago, A F said:

If he's playing a defensive role and blocking up space and defending ball movement (given he's quicker than Hunter), how does that change the conversation?

Langdon no longer plays the attacking role, so to expect the same attacking output is perhaps pretty unfair.

Would we like more out of him? Possibly, but we don't know the internal KPIs.

Well of course if his role has changed and he’s meeting his KPIs internally then the problem could well be a coaching and strategy one.
Hunter definitely plays more of the attacking role now, it just feels like what we gained with Hunter’s output we’ve lost with Langdon’s output.

He was the best winger in the game in 2021, and perhaps he’s just not adapting to the change in the wing role or perhaps he and Hunter need more time to work on the wing roles together, much like Gawn and Grundy.  

He is also spending significantly more time on the bench this season, which could indicate some type of injury, as historically he never comes off.

My post was purely a reflection of the comment by Buckley in relation to how we play our wings, it wasn’t trying to pile on Langdon, and I have no real insight as to why he’s not performing like in previous years. He’s also one of a number of key premiership players who I think have been well below their best this season, he’s certainly not alone. 

Maybe we’ve tried to change things that weren’t broken in an effort to improve in other areas, but in turn we got the balance wrong. I think Petty going forward is an example of that. It makes sense in the context of our forwardline, but it badly robs our backline of the intercept game. It’s a bit of a no win situation, unless we find a replacement for Petty down back. But I digress to another topic 😂

[SFebes 4,884]

Coaches coach players to their strengths, Langdon's strength is his run and link work, there is no way hes been told to go defensive. its a form issue. Funnily enough, I mentioned weeks ago that we aren't getting enough from both wingmen, they just look to be jogging around.

[jnrmac 20,053]

3 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

 

There are so many threads for indulging in opinion based (generally inaccurate) bagging of players. This is the one place I can come to just talk about strategy and observations on trends people have noticed and things we might try. I know I'm not a mod, I don't have any authority but, couldn't you please just take this to gameday or postgame? I promise there are tons of people who will join in a pile on with you there

A happy clapper thread would be perfect for you

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

Interesting stat. Maybe this is why Goody remains relatively upbeat.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

Can’t argue with this

 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

3 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Interesting stat. Maybe this is why Goody remains relatively upbeat.

 

2 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Can’t argue with this

 

Can't argue with the sentiment, AND the context of the knee injury and subsequent rehab and return, looms large as a missing piece of the tweet...

Edited May 30, 2023 by Engorged Onion

[jnrmac 20,053]

4 hours ago, A F said:

That's a forward and midfield pressure thing though, not a stoppages structure thing.

I agree, we look ordinary at ground level. 2021 we were very good in that area. Not perfect, but very solid.

Partly. When there is midfield pressure the ball comes in high and mostly indiscriminately. Lever and may eat that up (although Lever is missing Petty badly. He can't play the No 2 role). 

Teams have worked that out - hence we are low on the intercept number stat. They are chipping the ball to maintain control. Because we guard grass there is no/little pressure on the ball carrier.

The ball is coming in much lower and the scores against us are mainly coming from the smaller players (except for the  Ess game). If the oppo don't hit a target they force a stoppage and we are 18th in that area for stopping scores.

[BW511 2,635]

16 minutes ago, SFebes said:

Coaches coach players to their strengths, Langdon's strength is his run and link work, there is no way hes been told to go defensive. its a form issue. Funnily enough, I mentioned weeks ago that we aren't getting enough from both wingmen, they just look to be jogging around.

I’ve barely seen a less athletic looking AFL player than Hunter, he looks like he can barely run 98% of the time.

@jnrmac Even under pressure, teams are not panic-kicking in the air, there’s an effort across the league to keep the ball closer to the ground when playing us. 2021 version’s great strength (Lever & May aerially) is one of 2023 version’s biggest weakness (Lever & May on the groundball)

Edited May 30, 2023 by BW511

[jnrmac 20,053]

14 minutes ago, SFebes said:

Coaches coach players to their strengths, Langdon's strength is his run and link work, there is no way hes been told to go defensive. its a form issue. Funnily enough, I mentioned weeks ago that we aren't getting enough from both wingmen, they just look to be jogging around.

AT centre bounces our wings don't run to the defensive side. Freo were doing that on the weekend and cleaning up a fair bit of the ball from our fwd taps.

[demon3165 2,686]

7 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Interesting stat. Maybe this is why Goody remains relatively upbeat.

That's a bit like reading your uncles will, getting nothing but saying i was his favourite, that's what i think of stats maybe he should coach from the coaches box might get a better view of it.

[beelzebub 23,312]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

Well of course if his role has changed and he’s meeting his KPIs internally then the problem could well be a coaching and strategy one.

Ya think ...

Ffs how bloody obvious does this have to get.

He's  got no new clue.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

9 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

That's a bit like reading your uncles will, getting nothing but saying i was his favourite, that's what i think of stats maybe he should coach from the coaches box might get a better view of it.

Given that 4 out of the top 4 teams all have coaches who coach from the bench (including Goodwin) I think it’s a trend that’s staying.