1 hour ago, leave it to deever said:

Delivery has been shocking but Tmac is dropping simple marks, missing said shots and barely tackling. I think its mostly between the ears and perhaps injury.

 

Tom is clearly a confidence player and for whatever reason cannot pull himself out of this rut. A rest may do him the world of good and certainly wont hamper our chance of winning. 

Not disagreeing, but the delivery up forward is almost non existent 

5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Not disagreeing, but the delivery up forward is almost non existent 

Won't repeat it again so I'm not a broken record, but AFL average for inside 50 delivery/retention is 46%.

As a team, we are rated 3rd last at 41%.

This year, Oliver is going at 30%, Gus at 33% and Viney at a league-worst 24%. They are our prime movers and users going forward.

Compare that to Harmes (59%), TMac (57%) and Petracca (48%) and it starts to become a bit clearer where the forward delivery problem lies.

Given Goody's talk of forward connection this year, and talk last year about 'lowering our eyes' going forward on numerous occasions, it seems we have a co-captain leading the way in doing the opposite of what the coach is instructing. This could very well be a part of the overall equation of why we lack so much cohesion and unity as a team currently.

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Won't repeat it again so I'm not a broken record, but AFL average for inside 50 delivery/retention is 46%.

As a team, we are rated 3rd last at 41%.

This year, Oliver is going at 30%, Gus at 33% and Viney at a league-worst 24%. They are our prime movers and users going forward.

Compare that to Harmes (59%), TMac (57%) and Petracca (48%) and it starts to become a bit clearer where the forward delivery problem lies.

Given Goody's talk of forward connection this year, and talk last year about 'lowering our eyes' going forward on numerous occasions, it seems we have a co-captain leading the way in doing the opposite of what the coach is instructing. This could very well be a part of the overall equation of why we lack so much cohesion and unity as a team currently.

 

Thanks for the Figures Nev

It’s kick and hope all year

Pathetic from an elite and professional club

23 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Won't repeat it again so I'm not a broken record, but AFL average for inside 50 delivery/retention is 46%.

As a team, we are rated 3rd last at 41%.

This year, Oliver is going at 30%, Gus at 33% and Viney at a league-worst 24%. They are our prime movers and users going forward.

Compare that to Harmes (59%), TMac (57%) and Petracca (48%) and it starts to become a bit clearer where the forward delivery problem lies.

Given Goody's talk of forward connection this year, and talk last year about 'lowering our eyes' going forward on numerous occasions, it seems we have a co-captain leading the way in doing the opposite of what the coach is instructing. This could very well be a part of the overall equation of why we lack so much cohesion and unity as a team currently.

 

Thanks but the other stat you need is the overall volume of F50 entries. How many have we averaged per game over 12 games and where does that rank us among 18 clubs? Are those stats available LN?

36 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Not disagreeing, but the delivery up forward is almost non existent 

Tom is in a slump and these are hard to eliminate. It is also the case that the delivery up forward in non-existent. He therefore has suffered in the mid-term from a double disadvantage - suggesting a 'selfishness' of many of our players to just hit the ball on the foot for distance and metres gained. Hope and a prayer football is deplorable - no wonder we are so remiss in scoring.

2 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Thanks but the other stat you need is the overall volume of F50 entries. How many have we averaged per game over 12 games and where does that rank us among 18 clubs? Are those stats available LN?

Both Viney and Jones, the latter for all of his footy career, invented the 'long-bomb' method, it seems - as fwd penetration has traditionally been our main weakness amongst many. Worse, these two do not recognise it as a weakness; in fact, they had spread the disease to the rest of the midfielders - and only once in the past 2 years have I seen them deviate from this tremendous disadvantage as a style of play.

2 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Thanks but the other stat you need is the overall volume of F50 entries. How many have we averaged per game over 12 games and where does that rank us among 18 clubs? Are those stats available LN?

We're ranked 2nd in the league for inside 50s. Which is great and everything, but it's only part of the picture.

Combine that with our inside 50 retention (3rd last), our ranking of 4th worst for opponent intercepts and our ranking of dead last for opponent rebound 50s and it paints a clear picture of our delivery forward being a massive problem for us.

We're 2nd for tackles inside 50, but I think that's a bit misleading given our volume of inside 50s and poor delivery. From an anecdotal point of view it looks like our forward pressure is fairly poor.

It's not a 1 solution problem. I agree with your (many) posts about another quality tall forward target improving us, but my opinion is that better delivery would offer us a greater improvement if we were just to look at one aspect. It's obviously a complicated one, as forward structures, leading patterns and even form of our forwards comes into it as well, so it's not as simple as just delivery of course.

My main concern is Viney (sorry, I know I promised I wouldn't bring it up again). From an outsiders perspective, he seems to be doing things that are in direct opposition to what the coach is saying, at least externally. So either Viney is not playing how the coach wants (terrible for a co-captain if so) or Goody's telling us 'connection is important', but telling the players something else.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

We're ranked 2nd in the league for inside 50s. Which is great and everything, but it's only part of the picture.

Combine that with our inside 50 retention (3rd last), our ranking of 4th worst for opponent intercepts and our ranking of dead last for opponent rebound 50s and it paints a clear picture of our delivery forward being a massive problem for us.

We're 2nd for tackles inside 50, but I think that's a bit misleading given our volume of inside 50s and poor delivery. From an anecdotal point of view it looks like our forward pressure is fairly poor.

It's not a 1 solution problem. I agree with your (many) posts about another quality tall forward target improving us, but my opinion is that better delivery would offer us a greater improvement if we were just to look at one aspect. It's obviously a complicated one, as forward structures, leading patterns and even form of our forwards comes into it as well, so it's not as simple as just delivery of course.

My main concern is Viney (sorry, I know I promised I wouldn't bring it up again). From an outsiders perspective, he seems to be doing things that are in direct opposition to what the coach is saying, at least externally. So either Viney is not playing how the coach wants (terrible for a co-captain if so) or Goody's telling us 'connection is important', but telling the players something else.

 

2nd!

SECOND!!!

I accept it only part of the picture but nevertheless it is damning on TMac, Weid and Petracca in particular. The guys that have mainstays and fixtures there this season. There's no getting around it. 

It's delivery AND the ability or lack thereof of the talent we have assembled down there. 

We need to recruit outside class, a key forward and a quality small forward. In whatever order people to jig it. The whole set up needs a re-think. Trading players out like Petracca, Hunt and McDonald should definitely be on the table IF we feel there's a trade there to improve the overall 22.

If we go in with the same group again we're going to get a similar or only marginally better result. It's not good enough.

2 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

2nd!

SECOND!!!

I accept it only part of the picture but nevertheless it is damning on TMac, Weid and Petracca in particular. The guys that have mainstays and fixtures there this season. There's no getting around it. 

It's delivery AND the ability or lack thereof of the talent we have assembled down there. 

We need to recruit outside class, a key forward and a quality small forward. In whatever order people to jig it. The whole set up needs a re-think. Trading players out like Petracca, Hunt and McDonald should definitely be on the table IF we feel there's a trade there to improve the overall 22.

If we go in with the same group again we're going to get a similar or only marginally better result. It's not good enough.

For mine, talent is important, but structure is king.

Whilst I agree some outside class, a tall and small forward are much needed, I think you've skipped over the context of those inside 50s and gone straight for the most simplistic stat.

I would suggest watching the West Coast game again as a prime example of what i'm talking about. We had good inside 50 numbers, which by your reckoning is great, but the context to that is that Hurn had double figures in intercept marks and we lost the game.

I'm all for bringing in more forward talent, but if we go in with the same mentality from our prime mids and co-captain then they will not have the impact you think they will.

Both things are key, but IMO delivery improvement is a higher factor.

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

For mine, talent is important, but structure is king.

Whilst I agree some outside class, a tall and small forward are much needed, I think you've skipped over the context of those inside 50s and gone straight for the most simplistic stat.

I would suggest watching the West Coast game again as a prime example of what i'm talking about. We had good inside 50 numbers, which by your reckoning is great, but the context to that is that Hurn had double figures in intercept marks and we lost the game.

I'm all for bringing in more forward talent, but if we go in with the same mentality from our prime mids and co-captain then they will not have the impact you think they will.

Both things are key, but IMO delivery improvement is a higher factor.

 

Structure is key for me 'Nev'...

It's not just the delivery in but how the forward line sets up.

Goody can talk connection all he likes but when he has a crowded forward segment and doesn't use the ground to open up space we're never going to consistently connect.

1 minute ago, rjay said:

Structure is key for me 'Nev'...

It's not just the delivery in but how the forward line sets up.

Goody can talk connection all he likes but when he has a crowded forward segment and doesn't use the ground to open up space we're never going to consistently connect.

Yep, for sure. It's a multi-faceted problem where all 3 factors in structure, delivery and form (or talent) are all important.

They all intertwine: More open structure allows for better delivery which will help improve the form of our forwards.

I guess I'm focusing on delivery so much as we have a co-captain responsible for so much of that problem currently.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Yep, for sure. It's a multi-faceted problem where all 3 factors in structure, delivery and form (or talent) are all important.

They all intertwine: More open structure allows for better delivery which will help improve the form of our forwards.

I guess I'm focusing on delivery so much as we have a co-captain responsible for so much of that problem currently.

 

Both captains frequently kick long up and under rugby style kicks into the forward fifty. This is a total misuse and waste of a possession and often leads to the opposition rebounding for a goal down the other end. They need a kick up the bum.

35 minutes ago, Stormy Dee said:

Both captains frequently kick long up and under rugby style kicks into the forward fifty. This is a total misuse and waste of a possession and often leads to the opposition rebounding for a goal down the other end. They need a kick up the bum.

Agree, though Viney is far, far worse.

Terrible technique, has no right foot (and so is very predictable), cannot kick it low and flat, rarely kicks to a forward's advantage, struggles to hit a forward on the lead and seems not to be able to weight the ball to allow forwards to run onto it.

Not a great combination of deficits for a player who is one of keys to winning center clearances.

Cool hair though. 

42 minutes ago, Stormy Dee said:

Both captains frequently kick long up and under rugby style kicks into the forward fifty. This is a total misuse and waste of a possession and often leads to the opposition rebounding for a goal down the other end. They need a kick up the bum.

 

Just now, binman said:

Agree, though Viney is far, far worse.

Terrible technique, has no right foot (and so is very predictable), cannot kick it low and flat, rarely kicks to a forward's advantage, struggles to hit a forward on the lead and seems not to be able to weight the ball to allow forwards to run onto it.

Not a great combination of deficits for a player who is one of keys to winning center clearances.

Cool hair though. 

Yeah definitely Jones isn't providing a great example either, and even though Viney is only slightly ahead in inside 50s per game, it just seems a lot more noticeable that his delivery is so poor, perhaps because he attends more centre bounces and more often has that chance for clean use.

Personally, I would be all for dropping Viney next week to work on this part of his game. It can't be great for the players to have a co-captain directly contradicting coaches instructions and then turning around and trying to instruct them on what to do.

Goodwin is clearly frustrated about our lack of 'connection' forward, so imagine having Viney give you a bake for your delivery forward on behalf of the coach...

 

2 hours ago, rjay said:

Structure is key for me 'Nev'...

It's not just the delivery in but how the forward line sets up.

Goody can talk connection all he likes but when he has a crowded forward segment and doesn't use the ground to open up space we're never going to consistently connect.

Correct. Without a solid structure nothing happens, except the odd bit of luck. 

We got some structure this year against Meth Coke, but after losing a game we should have won, that structure has since evaporated. 

14 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Yeah definitely Jones isn't providing a great example either, and even though Viney is only slightly ahead in inside 50s per game, it just seems a lot more noticeable that his delivery is so poor, perhaps because he attends more centre bounces and more often has that chance for clean use.

Personally, I would be all for dropping Viney next week to work on this part of his game. It can't be great for the players to have a co-captain directly contradicting coaches instructions and then turning around and trying to instruct them on what to do.

Goodwin is clearly frustrated about our lack of 'connection' forward, so imagine having Viney give you a bake for your delivery forward on behalf of the coach...

 

I don't think he is failing to follow instructions as such. He is just a really poor kick. That's not going to improve at Casey.

Perhaps he should only handball!

Edited June 14, 20195 yr by binman

10 minutes ago, binman said:

I don't think he is failing to follow instructions as such. He is just a really poor kick. That's not going to improve at Casey.

Perhaps he should only handball!

Yeah maybe after 1 game, possibly 2, you could say that, but I reckon after one and a half seasons of doing it you could say he's going against instructions given it appears he's made no change to his approach. I could forgive him based on being a poor kick if he was making the right decisions but not executing, but he's making the wrong decision 9 times out of 10 in my opinion.

It's not our only problem, but I guess I just place a lot of importance on it being it's a co-captain.

 

I haven't seen as much of our games as I'd like to, but what I have seen sometimes makes me think of the bit of fun at the end of a training session where people are competing to kick the balls back into the wheelie bin they are stored - trying to bring it down neatly from above.

One thing you can definitely say for Melksham, his typically low-angle kicks usually have an intended target and even if they miss they are still moving towards goals. Lot of other players, if their kicks were just left to drop on grass, they'd be as likely to bounce back on the arc they came down on.

Doubly easy for defenders because all that extra air time lets them get into position better, and when the ball comes down it has no momentum towards goal that crumbers and troublemakers can try to use or protect. It means that most of the time our crumbing efforts are facing away from goal when trying to get the ball, so to take a meaningful snap requires either an extra couple of steps, a full change of direction, or an extra disposal, and that lost time is a killer.

We recruited a big body in Preuss that might actually bring a few of these aimless bombs from our prolific mids to ground or, God forbid, even clunk some marks. However, the selection panel, in their wisdom, have preferred to shuffle the deck chairs and persist with a putrid TMac and shocking kick for goal in Tracc as our key fwd targets and effectively let our season slip away without so much as a whimper. 

2 hours ago, leucopogon said:

We recruited a big body in Preuss that might actually bring a few of these aimless bombs from our prolific mids to ground or, God forbid, even clunk some marks. However, the selection panel, in their wisdom, have preferred to shuffle the deck chairs and persist with a putrid TMac and shocking kick for goal in Tracc as our key fwd targets and effectively let our season slip away without so much as a whimper. 

Yes I have been somewhat perplexed with our selections. When we go forward option A if under pressure is to bomb the ball into the hotspot 20m out from the goal so you might look to having the Pruess/Max ruck combo always sitting in the hot seat up forward but no we have gone with TMac and Smith and now Weideman and none of them are great contested marks. Added to that we haven’t got a competent goal kicking crumber when the ball hits the deck. Does our game plan suit the cattle we select game day? 

I am a bit tired of this lack of forward connection terminology. It seems to be a weasel word to cover up widespread incompetence, including poor delivery by foot to forwards who can’t take a contested mark and the inevitable spoil goes to small forwards who can’t crumb or hold the ball inside forward 50 and allow the opposition to waltz out of defence and blah, blah, we have seen the results this year.