Bartel on Brisbane's defence (and Melbourne's)

[TGR 1,367]

9 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think he means the time Frost went sprinting out 30m away from Zac Clarke to confront the kicker even though Fritsch was about 2 steps from closing him down. Clarke then missed the goal at the City end from 25 out directly in front.

If it's coaching to always leave your man then the coaches have to get the sack, but I don't think it is because I've seen Jetta keep tracking an opponent and wait for the chase down in a similar situation. 

Pretty sure that was it.  Don't think Fritsch was going to run him down.  I think Frost's job there is to create a bit of uncertainty for the player with ball in hand.  Frost left a little too early to enable an easy pass.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

4 minutes ago, TGR said:

Pretty sure that was it.  Don't think Fritsch was going to run him down.  I think Frost's job there is to create a bit of uncertainty for the player with ball in hand.  Frost left a little too early to enable an easy pass.

Maybe not run down but at least pressure the kick, he wasn't going to get more than about 10m further before having to have the shot on the run from distance when tiring.

Frost has to position between the players and create doubt but he moved more than a little early, it was an age early.

[Adam The God 30,244]

Fritsch is also a big problem in our back 6. He started playing sweeper off the wing and he just doesn't read the play well enough and often gets caught in no man's land.

I don't think we can boil it down to one or two factors or players. I think it's coaching, forward and midfield work rate, and defenders not being able to halve contests.

[picket fence 17,161]

2 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

I still believe that Frosty is not so guilty. He is caught between gap-filling, supporting to save desperate situations down back and assisting in the progress of clearances. Some he does well; for some of these roles, he is overwhelmed. 

Exactly!! at least he offers more than the Witches hat wearing a Melbourne Jumper ..Omac!!

Edited April 8, 2019 by picket fence

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, dee-tox said:

Was at Melbourne before the Hawks DD!

that Ol' dog...

a dee, a hawk, and now a lion.   I wonder how many new-tricks he's learnt, since.

Edited April 8, 2019 by DV8

[DV8 2,271]

14 minutes ago, A F said:

Fritsch is also a big problem in our back 6. He started playing sweeper off the wing and he just doesn't read the play well enough and often gets caught in no man's land.

I don't think we can boil it down to one or two factors or players. I think it's coaching, forward and midfield work rate, and defenders not being able to halve contests.

and runners, as well,  'AF'.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

20 minutes ago, A F said:

Fritsch is also a big problem in our back 6. He started playing sweeper off the wing and he just doesn't read the play well enough and often gets caught in no man's land.

I don't think we can boil it down to one or two factors or players. I think it's coaching, forward and midfield work rate, and defenders not being able to halve contests.

And one final factor that I think is important - we train all summer on a small ground that we further rope in for the rehab group, then we are immediately thrown on to the MCG. Last year we didn't play the MCG well until round 23. We are pretty rubbish on any ground at the moment but I wish we'd get a go on our favourite ground at Docklands!

[beelzebub 23,368]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A good observation by Ben Guthrie in this article Round 3 Observations  that our back 6 are all at sea. 

" ...forwards are not doing a good enough job of containing the ball inside 50 ...too many {defence} players are getting caught in no-man's land, unsure whether to "smash the ball" (press the ball carrier) or fold back and contain opposition numbers forward of the ball. To play in the manner Melbourne expects, players must have total trust in their teammates to make the right decision in whether to leave their man or not and it's clear over the first three rounds of the season that that understanding and confidence is not there at the moment."

5 of the current back 6 played our finals.  The other is Lewis.  I find it staggering that he is the difference between a cohesive backline and a group all at sea.  Hibberd and Jetta are experienced enough and knowledgeable enough of the game plan to marshall the troops in Lewis' absence.  Alas, it is not so.

I see the backs talk to each other after an opp goal.  Maybe Hibberd and Jetta need to also talk to Jones and Viney to get them to sort out the mid-field.

i read that after the article Demonland had posted ( elsewhere ) ...9 things we've learnt etc

Now you have to think if ol Benny boy can deduce that...you bet your bottom dollar 17 other coaches and FD's have as well.

I fully expect Longmire to exploit our zone . He'll have a field day

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

23 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

And one final factor that I think is important - we train all summer on a small ground that we further rope in for the rehab group, then we are immediately thrown on to the MCG. Last year we didn't play the MCG well until round 23. We are pretty rubbish on any ground at the moment but I wish we'd get a go on our favourite ground at Docklands!

Yep, we made some big sacrifices to get to play good footy at Docklands. 

[picket fence 17,161]

1 hour ago, TGR said:

My issue is the whipping boy at Melbourne was probably Dunn, Howe, Watts, and now Frost.  Ignoring the merits of getting rid of those 3 (I am sure Howe would have taken a D50 mark on the weekend), Frost has what we significantly lack...and that is speed.  Frost is asked to do more than shut down a player; he is asked to take them on.

 

We as MFC supporters can choose to shoot darts at the whipping boy of the day, but my arrow has been firmly pointed at the club for getting Lewis (3 year deal) and selling the farm for Lever.  Said it since day 1.  These two decision had and will have massive implications.  I was saying it also, unlike the simpletons, when we were winning and making finals.  That is the key difference between the simpleton who looks at the scoreboard, then re-thinks and then regurgitates.

 

 

pTGR

I can just see it !!we let Frost go and he would undoubtedly get picked up by any number of teams and become a very very good player!! We have a History of this occurring!

[—coach— 3,496]

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Many have been pointing that out for the past 4-5 years.

Clearly there are other contributing factors as to why we're so easy to score against, but Oscar and Frost bening our first and second key defenders is the main one.

That is without question. Neither are trustworthy enough as one-on-one defenders or intercept players.

First three goals of the game vs Essendon.

19:24 - First goal against Essendon, go and look what happened. WTF are Oscar and Frost doing? Did they forget that they're not both supposed to be manning Zac Smith? It's just comical stuff.

13:56 - This one is amazing. Oscar is caught in absolutely no-man's land. It's just incredible. His decision to leave his man (Bellchambers) to try and influence the contest was a complete fail given he ends up on his own in the middle of both Bellchambers and Hurley who had the kick. Wow...

This of course begins the domino effect whereby Hibberd leaves his man Tippa to press up to Bellchambers. Bellchambers then kicks to a free Tippa which in-turn results in an indecisive Wagner becoming lost and leaving Fantasia on his own when all he needed to do was stay on him. So the break-down starts with Oscar's baffling positioning on the wing and ends with Wagner's inability to assess the situation and stay with his opponent who was clearly going to be in the most dangerous position.

6:58 - Stringer kicks the goal. Frost's man in this particular play. Hibberd was poor in letting the ball out so easily in this scenario but Frost decides to waltz over to the goal square whilst Stringer stays in the play and of course the ball bobbles out to him and he goals.

Man, the sheer amount of stupidity I witnessed from Frost on Friday night was incredible. I simply can't describe every time he made a monumental error of judgement by leaving his man when to try and influence a contest when he didn't need to. Because there were too many of them!

I just cannot believe that people rate these two. It's unfathomable.

One wonders who is teaching these people because it really isn’t that difficult to instill a basic plan. My gut feel is that they are completely confused by the system they are being asked to conform too.

[beelzebub 23,368]

3 minutes ago, —coach— said:

One wonders who is teaching these people because it really isn’t that difficult to instill a basic plan. My gut feel is that they are completely confused by the system they are being asked to conform too.

Which in turns has me questioning the viability and veracity of our so called plan.

Footy ain't that hard ... really...is it.

[Deemania since 56 6,635]

53 minutes ago, DV8 said:

and runners, as well,  'AF'.

Fritsch does break away but too often for a backman - and who the hell thinks he is built or adept at backline work? He is a natural, free-roaming forward in his space and field awareness, and a very good mark/goal shooter who has been extracted to fill gaps and thus, has lost some of his mojo for that area of football - and it is an area role he should be playing. We have seen what he could do with limited exposure to the big game and arena. Nah, put him down back, heh? He is one of the few to assist the Melk and Hannan in the free space excursion, nearer to goal perhaps and still very possibly lethal in that role. He is not a pack mark; he is a lone ranger type on his direct opponent and in the continuous function of moving to space, retaining space and looking upfield for opportunities for others to elicit ball penetration. Give the guy a break, Goodwin. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

* Zac Clarke not Zac Smith. 

Don't know why I can't edit my post.

[Deemania since 56 6,635]

14 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Which in turns has me questioning the viability and veracity of our so called plan.

Footy ain't that hard ... really...is it.

Our football changes week to week to fill gaps in the nebulous FD dreams. A plan of football is not a 'brand' of football. See ball, get ball, use  ball, deliver ball. All done with assistance, not panic attacks.

[Deemania since 56 6,635]

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Exactly!! at least he offers more than the Witches hat wearing a Melbourne Jumper ..Omac!!

Clear as daybreak - who is not learning?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

20 minutes ago, —coach— said:

One wonders who is teaching these people because it really isn’t that difficult to instill a basic plan. My gut feel is that they are completely confused by the system they are being asked to conform too.

For me, it's always been a matter of personnel not being able to execute the style of defence Goodwin is hoping for.

Frost is not smart enough to know when to go, when to hold back, who to cover etc. He doesn't have a footballing brain. He is an athlete who is wildly inconsistent in all facets of the game. 

Oscar is the opposite. He is slow which stifles his positioning ability majorly, he lacks awareness and is super slow to react so he's not really the ideal candidate either. He doesn't have a single standout attribute as far as defending goes.

Of course there are other issues.

Goodwin's strange selection decisions don't help the back six form any sort of cohesion, trust or continuity in their playing. One week we have Hore on debut. Two weeks later it's Wagner taking his spot. The story hasn't changed in that sense since Goodwin took over. Backline is always a shambles. Hunt goes from backline to forwardline over the course of two games.

Every great side have a solid 6 who know how each other play intimately and trust each other. When I see four players fly up for one spoil (including smalls like Jetta and Hibberd), it tells me that those guys have zero faith in Oscar or Frost getting the job done.

I can't see us making any significant progression in that area until May and Lever have played at least 10 consecutive games together at AFL level.

That's when Oscar can drop back to a really minimal third tall role if need be. That's when Jetta can get back to beating the best small forward an oppo have. It's when we'll see Hibberd return to a flank to provide that drive with his run and kicking. Etc etc.

Everyone's roles will be simplified and confidence and structure will be restored.

Until then, we'll continue to be wildly inconsistent as a back 6.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

4 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Goodwin's strange selection decisions don't help the back six form any sort of cohesion, trust or continuity in their playing. One week we have Hore on debut. Two weeks later it's Wagner taking his spot. The story hasn't changed in that sense since Goodwin took over. Backline is always a shambles. Hunt goes from backline to forwardline over the course of two games.

 

How many games did Salem, Lewis, Hibberd, Jetta, Oscar, Frost play together last year? I think it was the majority of the 2nd half of the season.

Hore had a go, wasn't up to it. May came in, went out. Wagner got a chance. 

Hunt went forward because the forward line has been as bad as the backline and we needed speed to be any chance of holding the Bombers quick flankers. Fritsch moved to half back, C Wagner to the wing. I can live with that.

The other 5 spots have been a constant.

4 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I can't see us making any significant progression in that area until May and Lever have played at least 10 consecutive games together at AFL level.

 

Absolutely agree with that, but we can bounce back towards league average if the midfield gets it going and May comes back in. Frost is also a good match up on a select number of players - lumbering talls who only lead in straight lines - ie. Tex Walker. Oscar had a limited preseason. Just maybe they both improve from dreadful to somewhat not terrible. Stranger things have happened I guess.

[beelzebub 23,368]

22 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

Absolutely agree with that, but we can bounce back towards league average if the midfield gets it going and May comes back in. Frost is also a good match up on a select number of players - lumbering talls who only lead in straight lines - ie. Tex Walker. Oscar had a limited preseason. Just maybe they both improve from dreadful to somewhat not terrible. Stranger things have happened I guess.

with all due respect...youre kidding yourself...far too many IF's there...and they ALL have to fall into place like ducks on a wall.

far too many excuses being made for any number of things. Port and Essendon arent much chop really.....but they opened us up...Geelong wasnt warmed up ...thank god

Good teams will kick our a..e from post to post.  Dams only need cracks to come undone....we've more cracks than a Comedy night

[—coach— 3,496]

36 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

For me, it's always been a matter of personnel not being able to execute the style of defence Goodwin is hoping for.

Frost is not smart enough to know when to go, when to hold back, who to cover etc. He doesn't have a footballing brain. He is an athlete who is wildly inconsistent in all facets of the game. 

Oscar is the opposite. He is slow which stifles his positioning ability majorly, he lacks awareness and is super slow to react so he's not really the ideal candidate either. He doesn't have a single standout attribute as far as defending goes.

Of course there are other issues.

Goodwin's strange selection decisions don't help the back six form any sort of cohesion, trust or continuity in their playing. One week we have Hore on debut. Two weeks later it's Wagner taking his spot. The story hasn't changed in that sense since Goodwin took over. Backline is always a shambles. Hunt goes from backline to forwardline over the course of two games.

Every great side have a solid 6 who know how each other play intimately and trust each other. When I see four players fly up for one spoil (including smalls like Jetta and Hibberd), it tells me that those guys have zero faith in Oscar or Frost getting the job done.

I can't see us making any significant progression in that area until May and Lever have played at least 10 consecutive games together at AFL level.

That's when Oscar can drop back to a really minimal third tall role if need be. That's when Jetta can get back to beating the best small forward an oppo have. It's when we'll see Hibberd return to a flank to provide that drive with his run and kicking. Etc etc.

Everyone's roles will be simplified and confidence and structure will be restored.

Until then, we'll continue to be wildly inconsistent as a back 6.

Hear what you are saying and agree that we will be at our best when all of our backmen are fit, healthy and playing together. In the meantime though we need an alternative plan, if the players like frost are not smart enough to follow the plan then good coaching is altering the way you teach the plan or alter the plan itself (simplify) to get the best out of the individuals at your disposal. I’ve been coaching at very high levels in swimming for 20 years and I can tell you very few athletes are capable of swimming as I would ideally want them too, so I adjust the plan and the delivery to suit their capacity to learn and improve. That’s how you get the best out of each individual.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

13 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

with all due respect...youre kidding yourself...far too many IF's there...and they ALL have to fall into place like ducks on a wall.

far too many excuses being made for any number of things. Port and Essendon arent much chop really.....but they opened us up...Geelong wasnt warmed up ...thank god

Good teams will kick our a..e from post to post.  Dams only need cracks to come undone....we've more cracks than a Comedy night

We won 2 finals last year after some very poor early season games. May coming in and the midfield returning to form isn't exactly a huge leap.

[beelzebub 23,368]

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

We won 2 finals last year after some very poor early season games. May coming in and the midfield returning to form isn't exactly a huge leap.

That was then..this is now.

Much has changed. 2018 is somewhat irrelevant.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

One-on-one under the 666 rule makes zone defence look so last century

[beelzebub 23,368]

7 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

One-on-one under the 666 rule makes zone defence look so last century

And yet we persist

[deespicable me 1,486]

I think we need to look back,,,,,, to go forward... when honorable losses were an art form, web pages were created in honor of Richmonds Jordan McMahon and we could all look forward to juicy "priority picks" and create Messiahs out of young men who hadn't even played a game yet.

Yes lets tank!!!!