Islam in the West

[Earl Hood 6,152]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Like a true Leftist, Jara doesn't care about facts.

He defends a side, not a cause.

Pro have a good look in the mirror mate! FFS that is exactly what you do. Facts are secondary in your war on those you deem to be dangerous lefty loonies which I have stated before is everyone politically to the left of Genghis Khan, in your mind! 

 

[Gator 18,017]

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

Pro have a good look in the mirror mate! FFS that is exactly what you do. Facts are secondary in your war on those you deem to be dangerous lefty loonies which I have stated before is everyone politically to the left of Genghis Khan, in your mind! 

 

Incorrect.  I'm cause based and never side based.

You are wrong.

[Jara 1,153]

12 hours ago, ProDee said:

Like a true Leftist, Jara doesn't care about facts.

He defends a side, not a cause.

Ah, you've got me there, Pro. I surrender. Can't argue with facts. The proof is there for all to see - Rafiki's aced it: three quarters of Muslim women in Paris wear "masks" out of fear. 

But wait! - how reliable is this survey? When was it carried out? 2012 or 1789? The article doesn't say. By who? Benjamin Netanyahu? What methodology did it use? How many subjects did it survey? 5 or 5 million? How did it allow for survey response effect? And it says the 3/4 were motivated by fear, including fear of violence - what does "including" mean? - could be .0001%, could be 99%.

 

Then I asked myself - who would write an article based on such vacuous information? So I looked up the author on Wikipedia  (yeah yeah, I know, playing the man, not the ball - but in this case, I'll make an exception, since he's such an exceptional man). Ezra Levant is a Canadian right-wing fanatic who make Andrew Bolt look like Stalin.   He's so far to the right, he's against such things as universal health care, public pensions and the minimum wage. 

 

Anyway, since you're such a big "facts" man, maybe you can answer the question Ethan is obviously unwilling or unable to. How many children died as a result of our (meaning US, Britain and us) invasion of Iraq? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Jara

[Gator 18,017]

17 minutes ago, Jara said:

Ah, you've got me there, Pro. I surrender. Can't argue with facts. The proof is there for all to see - Rafiki's aced it: three quarters of Muslim women in Paris wear "masks" out of fear. 

But wait! - how reliable is this survey? When was it carried out? 2012 or 1789? The article doesn't say. By who? Benjamin Netanyahu? What methodology did it use? How many subjects did it survey? 5 or 5 million? How did it allow for survey response effect? And it says the 3/4 were motivated by fear, including fear of violence - what does "including" mean? - could be .0001%, could be 99%.

 

Then I asked myself - who would write an article based on such vacuous information? So I looked up the author on Wikipedia  (yeah yeah, I know, playing the man, not the ball - but in this case, I'll make an exception, since he's such an exceptional man). Ezra Levant is a Canadian right-wing fanatic who make Andrew Bolt look like Stalin.   He's so far to the right, he's against such things as universal health care, public pensions and the minimum wage. 

 

Anyway, since you're such a big "facts" man, maybe you can answer the question Ethan is obviously unwilling or unable to. How many children died as a result of our (meaning US, Britain and us) invasion of Iraq? 

Ezra is a great man.  You'd learn much from him.  I don't believe in a minimum wage either.  There'd be less unemployed if governments didn't tell people what they're not allowed to accept to be gainfully employed. 

As for your casualties of war question ?  I don't know and nor do I care.  What's done is done.  Blood spilt was at the hands of Saddam.  That said, like you, the West hasn't understood the Middle East and they've often meddled when they shouldn't have. 

But I love how you Lefties pretend you care.  Four million people die every year due to poor cooking practices caused by poverty.  They die from soot.  Yet I've never heard you be concerned or mention it. 

As I said, you're only interested in a side, not a cause. 

[Jara 1,153]

Are you also against age pensions and universal health care? 

13 hours ago, ProDee said:

Like a true Leftist, Jara doesn't care about facts.

He defends a side, not a cause.

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Jara

[Gator 18,017]

6 minutes ago, Jara said:

Are you also against age pensions and universal health care? 

 

No. 

I'm glad that was your big takeaway. 

[Earl Hood 6,152]

11 hours ago, ProDee said:

Ezra is a great man.  You'd learn much from him.  I don't believe in a minimum wage either.  There'd be less unemployed if governments didn't tell people what they're not allowed to accept to be gainfully employed. 

As for your casualties of war question ?  I don't know and nor do I care.  What's done is done.  Blood spilt was at the hands of Saddam.  That said, like you, the West hasn't understood the Middle East and they've often meddled when they shouldn't have. 

But I love how you Lefties pretend you care.  Four million people die every year due to poor cooking practices caused by poverty.  They die from soot.  Yet I've never heard you be concerned or mention it. 

As I said, you're only interested in a side, not a cause. 

Death by soot. Where did this come from? Yes there is world poverty but is that caused by the left, really? What do you want the left to do about soot? Reducing wages and working conditions even further will that help the war on soot?

[Phadraig 760]

I don’t understand. Do you realise what the aim of Islam is? They want to take over the world. I bet 80% of these “moderate muslims” would be for sharia law. I’m just wondering Jara, do you think it is fair for women to be covered from head to toe, destined to be a baby maker and polygamous against their will?

Never mind they are truely happy, you know some happy female muslims right? They definitely haven't been indoctrinated into a sexist ideology which people somehow stick up for.

I hate to bring the left and right into the conversation because I think I’m directly in the middle of the political spectrum, but the left has gone crazy.

I believe in Donald the Strong

Trump will win in 2020 and I can’t wait.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Rafiki

[Jara 1,153]

21 hours ago, ProDee said:

No. 

I'm glad that was your big takeaway. 

If by "takeaway", you mean did I learn anything new, sorry, that was about it.

For most normal human beings, the takeaway would have been your callous comment about the number of casualties ("I don't know and I don't care") - but given that you've already demonstrated a similar viciousness on the other thread (what did you say there? - something about not caring about dead Palestinian kids because you know what they'll grow up to become") I wasn't surprised.

 

[Jara 1,153]

10 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Death by soot. Where did this come from? Yes there is world poverty but is that caused by the left, really? What do you want the left to do about soot? Reducing wages and working conditions even further will that help the war on soot?

Hi Earl - it's a tricky business, trying to have a rational conversation with Pro. You think you see what he's getting at, then he throws in soot.

 

His latest thing seems to be that - what is it? he's arguing for "a cause" and we're arguing for "a side". What's the diff?

[Gator 18,017]

56 minutes ago, Jara said:

If by "takeaway", you mean did I learn anything new, sorry, that was about it.

For most normal human beings, the takeaway would have been your callous comment about the number of casualties ("I don't know and I don't care") - but given that you've already demonstrated a similar viciousness on the other thread (what did you say there? - something about not caring about dead Palestinian kids because you know what they'll grow up to become") I wasn't surprised.

 

You and the Left like "seeming", but in reality the deaths of innocent civilians doesn't keep you awake at night.  Don't pretend it does.

No-one likes innocent lives being lost, but you can quit your bleeding heart act.

If you really cared about people you'd decry the subjugation of women in Islam.  You'd decry stonings, you're decry female genital mutilation, you'd decry the barbarism of sharia. 

But you couldn't give a toss.

Spare me crocodile tears.

[Gator 18,017]

11 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Death by soot. Where did this come from? Yes there is world poverty but is that caused by the left, really? What do you want the left to do about soot? Reducing wages and working conditions even further will that help the war on soot?

 

59 minutes ago, Jara said:

Hi Earl - it's a tricky business, trying to have a rational conversation with Pro. You think you see what he's getting at, then he throws in soot.

 

His latest thing seems to be that - what is it? he's arguing for "a cause" and we're arguing for "a side". What's the diff?

World Health Organisation

Household air pollution and health

8 May 2018

 

Key facts

• Around 3 billion people cook using polluting open fires or simple stoves fuelled by kerosene, biomass (wood, animal dung and crop waste) and coal.
• Each year, close to 4 million people die prematurely from illness attributable to household air pollution from inefficient cooking practices using polluting stoves paired with solid fuels and kerosene.
• Household air pollution causes noncommunicable diseases including stroke, ischaemic heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and lung cancer.
• Close to half of deaths due to pneumonia among children under 5 years of age are caused by particulate matter (soot) inhaled from household air pollution.

http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/household-air-pollution-and-health

7 million premature deaths annually linked to air pollution

“Cleaning up the air we breathe prevents noncommunicable diseases as well as reduces disease risks among women and vulnerable groups, including children and the elderly,” says Dr Flavia Bustreo, WHO Assistant Director-General Family, Women and Children’s Health. “Poor women and children pay a heavy price from indoor air pollution since they spend more time at home breathing in smoke and soot from leaky coal and wood cook stoves.”

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2014/air-pollution/en/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you dopes are unaware of an issue then ask me, don't go half-cocked and make yourself look utterly stupid.  Air pollution and soot is a year on year major issue in poor populations whether you scoff at such assertions, or not.

[Earl Hood 6,152]

11 hours ago, ProDee said:

 

World Health Organisation

Household air pollution and health

8 May 2018

 

Key facts

• Around 3 billion people cook using polluting open fires or simple stoves fuelled by kerosene, biomass (wood, animal dung and crop waste) and coal.
• Each year, close to 4 million people die prematurely from illness attributable to household air pollution from inefficient cooking practices using polluting stoves paired with solid fuels and kerosene.
• Household air pollution causes noncommunicable diseases including stroke, ischaemic heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and lung cancer.
• Close to half of deaths due to pneumonia among children under 5 years of age are caused by particulate matter (soot) inhaled from household air pollution.

http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/household-air-pollution-and-health

7 million premature deaths annually linked to air pollution

“Cleaning up the air we breathe prevents noncommunicable diseases as well as reduces disease risks among women and vulnerable groups, including children and the elderly,” says Dr Flavia Bustreo, WHO Assistant Director-General Family, Women and Children’s Health. “Poor women and children pay a heavy price from indoor air pollution since they spend more time at home breathing in smoke and soot from leaky coal and wood cook stoves.”

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2014/air-pollution/en/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you dopes are unaware of an issue then ask me, don't go half-cocked and make yourself look utterly stupid.  Air pollution and soot is a year on year major issue in poor populations whether you scoff at such assertions, or not.

Pro I accept your data on this issue just flummoxed as to its relevance to this thread. This thread started with the dangers of Islam and has strayed at times into the usual attacks on lefties, fair enough I suppose, but then to throw this statistic into the mix just didn’t seem to make sense. Poor cooking practices due to poverty are widespread across the third world, not linked to any religion nor any political persuasion I believe. There is a hell of a lot of misery and injustice happening on this planet every day that lefties or conservatives just can’t resolve and never will unfortunately. 

[Gator 18,017]

47 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Pro I accept your data on this issue just flummoxed as to its relevance to this thread. This thread started with the dangers of Islam and has strayed at times into the usual attacks on lefties, fair enough I suppose, but then to throw this statistic into the mix just didn’t seem to make sense. Poor cooking practices due to poverty are widespread across the third world, not linked to any religion nor any political persuasion I believe. There is a hell of a lot of misery and injustice happening on this planet every day that lefties or conservatives just can’t resolve and never will unfortunately. 

You should apologise for carrying on like an ignorant buffoon.

If you read the post you quoted you'll know why it was brought up.

[dieter 3,325]

My goodness gracious me, been banned for a week for putting the letter L into a well known swear word and I come back to the same old nonsense. I applaud you Jara and the Earl of Hood, but in the end, you can't argue with the sheer logic and omnipotent knowledge of just about everything on the face of the earth that the likes of ET, PD , the once mighty Biffen when he played for the Dees but alas and alack no more under his acronym, Skuit and the Emblem man post to these pages. On most sites they'd be banned for spreading hatred and propaganda but I won't  say any more ...

[Wrecker45 3,378]

14 hours ago, Jara said:

 

 

His latest thing seems to be that - what is it? he's arguing for "a cause" and we're arguing for "a side". What's the diff?

The difference is a pragmatic conservative who thinks about issues independently and deals in facts compared to a groupthinking leftist who is rusted on to ideology.

[dieter 3,325]

10 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

The difference is a pragmatic conservative who thinks about issues independently and deals in facts compared to a groupthinking leftist who is rusted on to ideology.

Ha ha Wreckster, as though your animus comes from facts rather than ideology. Anyone can cherry pick 'facts'.

[Phadraig 760]

Yeah [censored], “facts” are wrong, we should act on emotion instead. Sorry I mean ideology, fantastic plan to live by.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Rafiki

[Jara 1,153]

9 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

The difference is a pragmatic conservative who thinks about issues independently and deals in facts compared to a groupthinking leftist who is rusted on to ideology.

Yoicks - Wrecker - not happy to see you getting involved. You're smarter than the rest of the conservatives on this site put together.

That's a clever, if biased, explanation you gave, but it still doesn't answer my question. Pro keeps denigrating us, saying we're committed to a "side". whereas he's committed to a "cause". What's the diff? I'd have thought we were both just coming at the issue from our respective angles. 

 

Re your comment about facts - again, I don't get it. I asked Pro for facts (example, the number of kids killed in the Iraq invasion) and all he says is he couldn't care less. I looked at that supposed survey of Muslim women and could find no facts in it at all, just unsubstantiated generalisations. 

[Jara 1,153]

11 hours ago, ProDee said:

You should apologise for carrying on like an ignorant buffoon.

If you read the post you quoted you'll know why it was brought up.

Sorry Pro, I'm another ignorant buffoon - I apologise - maybe I'm still in shock after Monday's game, but I've re-read your post and I still can't follow your line of reasoning.

There we were, having a nice friendly argument about Islam in the West and then suddenly you throw in this stuff about soot.

I mean - I'm as worried about pollution as the next person (in fact, when it comes to health effects from coal-burning fires I suspect I'm more experienced than you - I've spent a couple of years in China - studied in Beijing for a year in the early 80s - my god, the pollution from those coal stoves - we'd go for an evening stroll through the hutongs and come back with our faces ((and lungs, I presume)) covered in black soot - we've been back quite a few times - things still bad) So when I saw that initial UN report I was glad it was getting coverage and it reinforced my belief in alternative energy.

 

But I don't see how it ties into the discussion we were having.

Let's try a hypothetical. Say, we're having a discussion about a topic close to your heart - about, oh, I don't know -  the terrible casualty rates among American Neo-nazis accidentally shooting themselves -  you naturally, would think this was a disaster we should all be worried about whereas I wouldn't be too fussed. Now suppose you were winning the argument and I suddenly threw in something like: "Well you obviously don't care about the shot Nazis - there are 200,000 people killed in traffic accidents in India! What are you doing about that!"

 

Can you see what I'm getting at?   You'd be a bit nonplussed, wouldn't you? There are terrible things happening everywhere. We can't discuss them all at simultaneously. 

 

So if you really want me to follow your argument, you'll have to explain it more clearly.  

[Phadraig 760]

Would the world be better without islam? Curious what everyone thinks.

[Gator 18,017]

7 hours ago, Jara said:

Sorry Pro, I'm another ignorant buffoon - I apologise - maybe I'm still in shock after Monday's game, but I've re-read your post and I still can't follow your line of reasoning.

There we were, having a nice friendly argument about Islam in the West and then suddenly you throw in this stuff about soot.

I mean - I'm as worried about pollution as the next person (in fact, when it comes to health effects from coal-burning fires I suspect I'm more experienced than you - I've spent a couple of years in China - studied in Beijing for a year in the early 80s - my god, the pollution from those coal stoves - we'd go for an evening stroll through the hutongs and come back with our faces ((and lungs, I presume)) covered in black soot - we've been back quite a few times - things still bad) So when I saw that initial UN report I was glad it was getting coverage and it reinforced my belief in alternative energy.

 

But I don't see how it ties into the discussion we were having.

Let's try a hypothetical. Say, we're having a discussion about a topic close to your heart - about, oh, I don't know -  the terrible casualty rates among American Neo-nazis accidentally shooting themselves -  you naturally, would think this was a disaster we should all be worried about whereas I wouldn't be too fussed. Now suppose you were winning the argument and I suddenly threw in something like: "Well you obviously don't care about the shot Nazis - there are 200,000 people killed in traffic accidents in India! What are you doing about that!"

 

Can you see what I'm getting at?   You'd be a bit nonplussed, wouldn't you? There are terrible things happening everywhere. We can't discuss them all at simultaneously. 

 

So if you really want me to follow your argument, you'll have to explain it more clearly.  

I know you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, so going slightly off track is exceptionally confusing for you.

Funnily enough, you did that when you asked Ethan about civilian casualties in Iraq.  This thread is about Islam in the West, not wars in the Middle East.  But understanding discussions can veer off course I didn't find the need to highlight this to you.  Until now, of course.

You epitomise the Left, who defend Muslims who fail to integrate into their new Western countries, because your support a "side".  Decades ago the Left supported jews, but that's not so fashionable now.  If you're on the Left you support all things Left.  It's called "groupthink".  I abhor Islam, as opposed to Muslims, because of its totalitarian nature and wish for the rest of the world to submit.  It wants to eventually dominate every country in the world.  That is the agenda.  Leftist dolts are the useful idiots who help them on this journey.

This is why I brought up the millions who die each year due to soot from poor cooking practices.  It should be a massive Leftist issue, but it's not.  Groupthink hasn't got there yet.  Needless to say you had no $%#@&*( idea what I was talking about and were even condescending due to your said ignorance.

Rather than railing against Islam and it's practice of mutilating female genitals the Left march around in [censored] hats when e President they don't like gets elected.

Leftists are a waste of space.

Edited June 13, 2018 by ProDee

[Earl Hood 6,152]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

I know you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, so going slightly off track is exceptionally confusing for you.

Funnily enough, you did that when you asked Ethan about civilian casualties in Iraq.  This thread is about Islam in the West, not wars in the Middle East.  But understanding discussions can veer off course I didn't find the need to highlight this to you.  Until now, of course.

You epitomise the Left, who defend Muslims who fail to integrate into their new Western countries, because your support a "side".  Decades ago the Left supported jews, but that's not so fashionable now.  If you're on the Left you support all things Left.  It's called "groupthink".  I abhor Islam, as opposed to Muslims, because of its totalitarian nature and wish for the rest of the world to submit.  It wants to eventually dominate every country in the world.  That is the agenda.  Leftist dolts are the useful idiots who help them on this journey.

This is why I brought up the millions who die each year due to soot from poor cooking practices.  It should be a massive Leftist issue, but it's not.  Groupthink hasn't got there yet.  Needless to say you had no $%#@&*( idea what I was talking about and were even condescending due to your said ignorance.

Rather than railing against Islam and it's practice of mutilating female genitals the Left march around in [censored] hats when e President they don't like gets elected.

Leftists are a waste of space.

I did a quick review of the history of female genital mutilation just to confirm what I thought was its history. The practice is widespread across Africa and to parts of the Middle East, it predates Islam and Christianity being mentioned in Ancient Greek writings and in Ancient Egypt. It is practiced today by poorer people’s who are Animist, Christian and Muslim. There are links to its use as part of the slave trade in the 17th Century which might explain its movement out of Africa to Asia. There is no mention of FGM in the Quran or the Bible. 

In summary it is a barbaric practice from our pagan, superstitious past that is still occurring in the modern world. It is not exclusively an Islamic issue. That might be why I am not railing against Islam on FGM! 

[Gator 18,017]

14 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

I did a quick review of the history of female genital mutilation just to confirm what I thought was its history. The practice is widespread across Africa and to parts of the Middle East, it predates Islam and Christianity being mentioned in Ancient Greek writings and in Ancient Egypt. It is practiced today by poorer people’s who are Animist, Christian and Muslim. There are links to its use as part of the slave trade in the 17th Century which might explain its movement out of Africa to Asia. There is no mention of FGM in the Quran or the Bible. 

In summary it is a barbaric practice from our pagan, superstitious past that is still occurring in the modern world. It is not exclusively an Islamic issue. That might be why I am not railing against Islam on FGM! 

Tell me something I don't know.

Muslims are doing this abhorrent practice in the West and for you to accept this practice anywhere tells me all I need to know about you.  Defend the side, no matter the issue.  Classic brain dead Leftism.  It's a mental illness.

That said, you didn't know poor cooking practices kill millions of people each year, so not much surprises me when it comes to your views.

[Jara 1,153]

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

I did a quick review of the history of female genital mutilation just to confirm what I thought was its history. The practice is widespread across Africa and to parts of the Middle East, it predates Islam and Christianity being mentioned in Ancient Greek writings and in Ancient Egypt. It is practiced today by poorer people’s who are Animist, Christian and Muslim. There are links to its use as part of the slave trade in the 17th Century which might explain its movement out of Africa to Asia. There is no mention of FGM in the Quran or the Bible. 

In summary it is a barbaric practice from our pagan, superstitious past that is still occurring in the modern world. It is not exclusively an Islamic issue. That might be why I am not railing against Islam on FGM! 

Now look Earl, I've been meaning to tell you, you really ought to do something about this mental illness of yours. You should see a doctor.

 

Hang on - what am I talking about? I am a doctor. Let me help you.

My diagnosis is that you've been spending too long trying to engage in "mature conversation" with knuckleheads like Pro, who, for example, boasts about being an expert on Islam but has never had a serious discussion with a Muslim or blasts us for doing nothing about soot, even though he's done nothing about it himself.  This fellow has a serious case of Dunning-Kruger effect (i.e. too stupid to know how stupid he is - it's incurable). 

 

My advice: take a nice long holiday and read some Sufi poetry.