Tall aint all....

[Left Field 313]

My suggested criteria for a good ruckman are pretty simple:

1.winning first use at “stop plays”. By this I mean, on balance, creating more opportunities than the opposition to attack from static situations.

2.owning the coridor as a target. Presenting up the middle of the ground, especially ahead of the half backline, so that the team can attack at any angle as they enter the forwardline (I hate entering the forwardline through one side or the other because it denies the forwards space)

3.getting around the whole ground – the kick behind ruckman will be exposed (if they haven't already) as a bludger employed only by coaches who are scared of the oppositions forwards

4.obtaining and using possessions to the advantage of the team

5.being multi-dimensional (ie its no good only being good over head or below the knees, or only ever handpassing the ball)

Yes we have a relatively short ruck division, but if you break down what you want in tall players, then it gets worse for us I reckon. To me, the current "best practise" ruckman appear to be:

Dean Cox – (1) good, although he has a great following division (2) very good, a strong presence who causes weaker ruckman to run wide (3) excellent (4) high possession winner who uses the ball well and (5) not a great contested mark but useful in most categories.

Peter Everitt – (1) fantastic (2) pretty good - certainly competitive (3) tends to go forward more than back but recently played with a midget forwardline structure (4) gets it a lot and has lovely skills (5) better on his own than in a contest but fantastic below the knees and a deadly shot on goal.

Brendan Lade – yes although he aint really tall I rate this bloke highly. Good in the taps, brave as they come, not covering as much ground as he once did but still hurts his opposition ruckman, lovely creative skills and better than most at contested and uncontested possession gathering. An old, medium sized master who we should try to get as an AC as soon as he retires.

The big boy from Freo is promising but I reckon the opposition will work him over around the ground next year so I suggest we wait before we call him the next BIG thing!

Now to our ruck divison:

JW – (1) robbed by the new rule (2) plays as a wide receiver (3) one of the best going around in this area (4) uses the ball well short and on his best form gets lots of it and (5) better in space but good below and above his kness.

MJ – (1) yet to have a winning season (2) better than JW but still nowhere near elite (3) not a fabulous athlete yet (4) hopeless here. Does not win enough footy and (5) better than many but not as good as the best.

PJ – (1) hopeless on disclosed form (2) in between JW & MJ (3) moves well and seems to have good pace (4) good skills but hard to judge on his limited outings to date and (5) much better below the knees than above.

Neaves – yet to be seen at the top level but a good prospect.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit negative but I was trying to put some framework around a continuing theme............

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[ickey_11 145]

'kick behind' ruckmen aren't all bludgers; some ruckmen (eg Cox and also White) work their arses off to behind when their team doesn't have the ball and move forward when they do.

[Left Field 313]

'kick behind' ruckmen aren't all bludgers; some ruckmen (eg Cox and also White) work their arses off to behind when their team doesn't have the ball and move forward when they do.

Great point but I am not sure I agree with your examples.

Cox works all over the ground which means he gets back to help out his ordinary defence when the ball turns over.

I reckon Whitey wears out the wings and flanks and almost never does the 1%er's working back to help his defence after a turnover....Whitey was, is and always will be a wide reciever imo.

Note none of this is about how tall they are!

[occo 2]

Great point but I am not sure I agree with your examples.

Cox works all over the ground which means he gets back to help out his ordinary defence when the ball turns over.

I reckon Whitey wears out the wings and flanks and almost never does the 1%er's working back to help his defence after a turnover....Whitey was, is and always will be a wide reciever imo.

Note none of this is about how tall they are!

White has and is a fantastic member of our team and although Cox is better...White has been for many years. My concirn is that Jamar will never be a good ruckman and i cant see Johnson being any better. This is a negitive aspect of our team but we cant domoninate all over the field. There are always some areas of every team that arnt the best. Ie West Coast have an ordinary forward line, Sydney dependent on one ruckman and so on. Sollution, play Jamar and Johnson as much as possible. We cant recruit any more players (it would have been nice to chase Gardner but its too late now.

[Toad33 57]

White has and is a fantastic member of our team and although Cox is better...White has been for many years. My concirn is that Jamar will never be a good ruckman and i cant see Johnson being any better. This is a negitive aspect of our team but we cant domoninate all over the field. There are always some areas of every team that arnt the best. Ie West Coast have an ordinary forward line, Sydney dependent on one ruckman and so on. Sollution, play Jamar and Johnson as much as possible. We cant recruit any more players (it would have been nice to chase Gardner but its too late now.

As Dermot Brereton would say..."He is good at what he was built to do".

We would all like to see Jeff White take pack marks deep in the forwardline and kicking more goals (or we did when we didn't know he couldn't do it).

Yes, unfotunately he is not the complete ruckman, but trying to do that would take him away from the game style he is currently playing now, and doing well.

I don't want to understate the importance of a good ruckman but last season two teams (Geelong and Bulldogs I think. Please correct me if I am wrong) played many games where their ruckman won considerably less hitouts than the opposition but the midfield dominated the clearances. I think the same happened in one of our games as well where we got towelled in the hitouts and cleaned up in the clearances.

That said I think that having a good on-ball/centre square TEAM is far more important.

Making sure the ball doesn't waltz out of the centre square easily, in the oppositions hands, is as important as trying to waltz it out in ours regardless of whose teams ruckman wins the tap.

As mentioned in another thread I think each ruckman on our list should be developed differently rather than try and carbon copy Dean Cox or Peter Everitt. They all have different strengths and abilities and these should be the cornerstone of their game style.

I guess our last rookie choice showed that a midfielder who has the ability to win and use the ball is far more important to the club than a bean pole who 'might' win it.

I have no doubt that ruckwork and ruckmen will keep evolving.

Who knows ND might have a plan to play White/Jamar in the centre and back half and use PJ in the forward half. I would like to see Cox et al. try and cover TWO ruckman at once.

Go Dees

[occo 2]

Mate u can be sure Jamar and Johnson are doing their best. We can hope there the next Cox but will this happen. Highly unlikely

[Jarka 767]

I can see Neaves very quickly overtaking both Jamar and PJ, who in my opinion aren't real ruckman (although Jamar is closer to the mark).

[occo 2]

I can see Neaves very quickly overtaking both Jamar and PJ, who in my opinion aren't real ruckman (although Jamar is closer to the mark).

I agree with you. Curious to why u think Jamar and mark will not be very effective ruckman. I have my reasons but interested to hear urs.

[drdrake 3,037]

One thing White does and Jamar to a certain degree is when they win the hit out cleanly it usually is an effective hit out to our advantage, that is the key stat, a ruckman can win every hit out but if it does give your team a advantage it is pointless. It would be good to find a stat for all the competition ruckman for this.

[Left Field 313]

One thing White does and Jamar to a certain degree is when they win the hit out cleanly it usually is an effective hit out to our advantage, that is the key stat, a ruckman can win every hit out but if it does give your team a advantage it is pointless. It would be good to find a stat for all the competition ruckman for this.

Couldn't agree more which is why I didn;t say "wins hitouts" in #1 above.

I reckon the two stats we need to see but don't currently gets are (1) hitouts to advantage and (2) effective metres per possession (but that is another topic).

[DEES 0]

if we are getting slaughtered in the rucks, i'm just suggesting but what if our players just predicted where the opposition ruckman will tap it to. they are most likely to tap it thier teammates or to their advantage. but if we have a good onballer who can read the play or if we man up tightly at the centre bounce it could be a way to stop the super ruckman in the AFL

[Jarka 767]

One thing White does and Jamar to a certain degree is when they win the hit out cleanly it usually is an effective hit out to our advantage, that is the key stat, a ruckman can win every hit out but if it does give your team a advantage it is pointless. It would be good to find a stat for all the competition ruckman for this.

Well, for starters I don't think Johnson has a clue to play the position. He looks lost when he moves away from the forwardline (just my opinion), especially with his centre square work.

Jamar looks better with his hitouts but I don't think he knows where to go after that. He seems to get lost around the ground and isn't able to be a 'link' player like White or Cox, perhaps he lacks a big tank? He really should be doing alot more work down back though although this could be a tactic thing.

Basically I don't think their work around the ground is good enough to be a number one ruck.

From memory Jolly was leading the 'hitout to advantage' stat.

[Axis of Bob 10,211]

FWIW, which isn't much, I'm very optimistic regarding PJ. His ruckwork is very agricultural but it is also very competitive.

But he plays like an extra midfielder with his running and skills around the ground. I think that this is the way ruckmen are heading (and have been heading for a while) so he could really surprise a lot of people, IMHO.

[Demon Head 250]

FWIW, which isn't much, I'm very optimistic regarding PJ. His ruckwork is very agricultural but it is also very competitive.

But he plays like an extra midfielder with his running and skills around the ground. I think that this is the way ruckmen are heading (and have been heading for a while) so he could really surprise a lot of people, IMHO.

DEMONS' BATTLE OF THE GIANTS