On 12/03/2017 at 02:16, Spirit of the Demon said:

Well ... if that happens there's every chance the mods will allow the opening up of yet another Jack Watts thread.

At least it would start off positive Spirit ?

  On 12/03/2017 at 05:06, bingers said:

I think his leads have been overlooked for quite a few years.

This has been cited over and over again. I'm very rarely able to attend games live so can't comment accurately on whether it's true or not. But if it is true, and not just a perception brought about by an increased focus on Watts, then why? The blame either rests with the entire team for quite a few years or somehow with Jack.

Is he asking too much of the kicking ability of teammates? Is he not demanding the ball loudly enough or at the optimal time? Is there a lack of confidence in his marking ability? Are his running-patterns so advanced that team-mates don't notice him in or expect him to be free in the space he his?

In all scenarios, it's something Jack has to fix himself and can't reasonably be brought up in defence of his underwhelming impact.

  On 12/03/2017 at 09:28, Skuit said:

This has been cited over and over again. I'm very rarely able to attend games live so can't comment accurately on whether it's true or not. But if it is true, and not just a perception brought about by an increased focus on Watts, then why? The blame either rests with the entire team for quite a few years or somehow with Jack.

Is he asking too much of the kicking ability of teammates? Is he not demanding the ball loudly enough or at the optimal time? Is there a lack of confidence in his marking ability? Are his running-patterns so advanced that team-mates don't notice him in or expect him to be free in the space he his?

In all scenarios, it's something Jack has to fix himself and can't reasonably be brought up in defence of his underwhelming impact.

Whether or not one wants to bring it up in his defence, surely some of the things you list are not purely his responsibity to fix.  Surely you are not saying he should dumb himself down to the level of the rest of the team.

  On 12/03/2017 at 09:28, Skuit said:

This has been cited over and over again. I'm very rarely able to attend games live so can't comment accurately on whether it's true or not. But if it is true, and not just a perception brought about by an increased focus on Watts, then why? The blame either rests with the entire team for quite a few years or somehow with Jack.

Is he asking too much of the kicking ability of teammates? Is he not demanding the ball loudly enough or at the optimal time? Is there a lack of confidence in his marking ability? Are his running-patterns so advanced that team-mates don't notice him in or expect him to be free in the space he his?

In all scenarios, it's something Jack has to fix himself and can't reasonably be brought up in defence of his underwhelming impact.

Running patterns so advanced ?  That's a new one. 

There are really only 4 reasons a player is overlooked. 

1. His teammates don't trust him

2. He's not predictable to his teammates

3. There are better options

4. They don't see him

  On 12/03/2017 at 09:33, sue said:

Whether or not one wants to bring it up in his defence, surely some of the things you list are not purely his responsibity to fix.  Surely you are not saying he should dumb himself down to the level of the rest of the team.

 

  On 12/03/2017 at 09:45, ProDee said:

Running patterns so advanced ?  That's a new one. 

There are really only 4 reasons a player is overlooked. 

1. His teammates don't trust him

2. He's not predictable to his teammates

3. There are better options

4. They don't see him

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment.

Equivalent to your no. 2 PD.

And yes Sue, I am saying that a player would need to dumb down their approach if they are not receiving the ball. Unless it is a direct result of coach's instructions.

 

  On 12/03/2017 at 10:45, Skuit said:

 

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment.

Equivalent to your no. 2 PD.

And yes Sue, I am saying that a player would need to dumb down their approach if they are not receiving the ball. Unless it is a direct result of coach's instructions.

 

Well if I had a clever player who knew how to make room for himself and the rest of the team didn't see him, I'd be telling the rest of the team to wake up to the opportunity the team has.

I guess if the rest of the team were too incompetent to wake up, the only option left would be to tell Watts to dumb down.  Be very sad if that as the case, but if you believe that, then the problem was with the quality of the rest of the team in recent years.  And I suppose there is some truth in that.

  On 12/03/2017 at 11:06, sue said:

Well if I had a clever player who knew how to make room for himself and the rest of the team didn't see him, I'd be telling the rest of the team to wake up to the opportunity the team has.

I guess if the rest of the team were too incompetent to wake up, the only option left would be to tell Watts to dumb down.  Be very sad if that as the case, but if you believe that, then the problem was with the quality of the rest of the team in recent years.  And I suppose there is some truth in that.

I assume neither of us are arguing Jack Watts is some footballing prodigy so it all becomes a philosophical discussion. And I could write the most profound theoretical exposition but if nobody understands it I have failed in its intention. Jack Watts is employed to kick or create goals. If he's not achieving that then he needs to adapt. 

I think is fair to say he has been often ignored or not seen when in space. 

Early this may have been a team mate confidence in his abilities. He wasn't a good contested mark and if the players couldn't trust themselves to kick to advantage, it was probably a turn over. Later I think has probably been more a scaring/game style issue i.e. we didn't look long for options up forward as we didn't expect them. 

I think the issue is less obvious than it once was, and will be interesting to see how it plays out this year. 

JW is very, very good and finding space and a mismatch.

His teammates will need to look up more.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbourne-forward-jack-watts-to-play-for-casey-on-sunday-20170313-gux22a.html

Another chance for him to blow off the cobwebs 

  On 14/03/2017 at 02:14, demon9 said:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbourne-forward-jack-watts-to-play-for-casey-on-sunday-20170313-gux22a.html

Another chance for him to blow off the cobwebs 

Pretty strong forward line at casey this week with Garlett, Kent and Watts.

  On 14/03/2017 at 02:28, Wrecker45 said:

Pretty strong forward line at casey this week with Garlett, Kent and Watts.

And Hullett, Hannan and Weideman (if they all play)!

heres anothe prediction...

so so so much BS on this thread...don't mean to dumb it down but sorry to single you out Skuit/ Sue! WTF!

Pount 1: at present, He is not good enough to make the 1st XV111. For a player of his status is an indictment .

Question: ( To Prodee at the Crèche  ) who makes the final call on the playing list? I love my footy club too but it's not the 

BTW....Go MHSOBFC!!!

 

As a long time observer and supporter of Jack, I've followed this discussion with some interest.  The vitriol which he attracts is remarkable given the loyalty he has shown and the contribution he has made through all the darkest times.  Like many correspondents, I find it hard to understand what the coaches had in mind when they felt it necesary to embarrass him publicly over the last couple of months.  In any school of management, this would be frowned upon.  However, I don't pretend to know what works fro footy coaches, just what doesn't work in the outside world.  

Last year, the footy department thought he was in our best five players in 2016.  Apparently something has since happened to cause them to feel it necessary to manage it in the way they have.  To me, it's still a mystery.

Regardless, over the years , I have seen Jack repeatedly find space on the field and be ignored.  Why are our players not instructed to look for his leads given that he is one of (if not the best) of our converters?  I can only think there must be more to this than has been said but, for the life of me,  I can't see what it is.

If this is an attempt to instil some 'mongrel' into him, so be it.  If it doesn't happen then, all I can say is that the coaches' approach was wrong.  A good mate once said to me 'there's no such thing as a bad player, just bad coaches'.  I hope the JW experiment confirms this to be the case and Jack can attain whatever aspirations the coaches have for him.  

If not, Jack might be better off looking elsewhere for coaches that will help him to realise his unbelievable potential.  They will be queueing up, I suspect.   I will be very sad to see it.

 

  On 08/03/2017 at 04:17, Grapeviney said:

The overuse and reliance on spin is one of the main reasons people are turning off the major political parties and flocking to straight-shooters such as Trump and Hanson. They're sick of the cliches and rehearsed lines and want plain-speaking politicians who mean what they say.

I've worked on both sides of the news fence (journalist and spin doctor) for 20+ years and like Fifty-5 reckon the club has handled it well. Only thing I would have done differently would have been, as Binman said, to come clean in week 1.

The alternatives would never have cut the mustard.

You can't pretend he's injured when he's in full training. You can't pretend you're giving fringe players a shot when you're selecting close to a full-strength side, and you can't pretend you're trying new things when it's clear the only new thing you're trying is not playing Watts. That would have been farcical.

The media commentary has been pretty subdued all things considered. Had we tried to cover it up, and then been exposed, then we would have had a full-blown PR crisis on our hands and endless speculation and articles. So far, the only place that's happened has been on here, which is to be expected. 

Lol. Trump is a straight shooter that doesn't use spin? Righto, GV. 'Alternative facts'? In the last week, it's 'false narrative'. 

As for Watts, I think the club have dealt with this well and are perhaps showing a tougher, no BS attitude towards every player. No favourites.

Now it's back to the start of the action classic Commando, on FOXTEL's Arnie pop up channel for me.

  On 18/03/2017 at 14:05, A F said:

Lol. Trump is a straight shooter that doesn't use spin? Righto, GV. 'Alternative facts'? In the last week, it's 'false narrative'. 

As for Watts, I think the club have dealt with this well and are perhaps showing a tougher, no BS attitude towards every player. No favourites.

Now it's back to the start of the action classic Commando, on FOXTEL's Arnie pop up channel for me.

Straight shooters?  No just bending it another way,  talking about straight shooters watts is a very straight shooter, and really commando would of been shoot within the first gun fight, he don't need no cover just stand in the open and use a large  machine gun,  jack will play r1. 

  On 18/03/2017 at 13:40, Jimcor2 said:

As a long time observer and supporter of Jack, I've followed this discussion with some interest.  The vitriol which he attracts is remarkable given the loyalty he has shown and the contribution he has made through all the darkest times.  Like many correspondents, I find it hard to understand what the coaches had in mind when they felt it necesary to embarrass him publicly over the last couple of months.  In any school of management, this would be frowned upon.  However, I don't pretend to know what works fro footy coaches, just what doesn't work in the outside world.  

Last year, the footy department thought he was in our best five players in 2016.  Apparently something has since happened to cause them to feel it necessary to manage it in the way they have.  To me, it's still a mystery.

Regardless, over the years , I have seen Jack repeatedly find space on the field and be ignored.  Why are our players not instructed to look for his leads given that he is one of (if not the best) of our converters?  I can only think there must be more to this than has been said but, for the life of me,  I can't see what it is.

If this is an attempt to instil some 'mongrel' into him, so be it.  If it doesn't happen then, all I can say is that the coaches' approach was wrong.  A good mate once said to me 'there's no such thing as a bad player, just bad coaches'.  I hope the JW experiment confirms this to be the case and Jack can attain whatever aspirations the coaches have for him.  

If not, Jack might be better off looking elsewhere for coaches that will help him to realise his unbelievable potential.  They will be queueing up, I suspect.   I will be very sad to see it.

 

So even though he hadn't been meeting "intensity" standards at training for some "months" he should have been selected anyway so as to avoid public embarrassment ?

That would have been good "management" ?

In my view (and that's all it is, my view), it is never wise to cause a subordinate unnecessary embarassment in front of their peers, never.  The power dynamic is so imbalanced that you just end up damaging the level of loyalty that the person feels towards you and your organisation.  The momentary glow of satisfaction is far outweighed  by the potential loss of a considerable asset. 

In dIrect answer to your "question", we have absolutely no problem spinning a yarn when it suits and, as many have suggested on this thread, that would have been a more sensible approach "in my view".  However, as I said, maybe there's more to this than meets the eye.  I look forward to hearing more from Jack in his memoir after a long, productive, premiership & Brownlow-winning career.

  On 18/03/2017 at 22:38, Jimcor2 said:

In my view (and that's all it is, my view), it is never wise to cause a subordinate unnecessary embarassment in front of their peers, never.  The power dynamic is so imbalanced that you just end up damaging the level of loyalty that the person feels towards you and your organisation.  The momentary glow of satisfaction is far outweighed  by the potential loss of a considerable asset. 

In dIrect answer to your "question", we have absolutely no problem spinning a yarn when it suits and, as many have suggested on this thread, that would have been a more sensible approach "in my view".  However, as I said, maybe there's more to this than meets the eye.  I look forward to hearing more from Jack in his memoir after a long, productive, premiership & Brownlow-winning career.

Football clubs are very different organisations and can't be judged using private sector behaviours.

Melbourne uses the Leading Teams model, which is all about accountability and honesty within the group. 

I make no comment on the usefulness or otherise of the Leading Teams Model,  I don't know enough about it to form an opinion.  In fact, I would be a strong advocate for absolute honesty and accountability within the group.  My issue is with the efficacy of letting this become an issue outside of the group.  In my view (once again), this can only be counter-productive.  Managers (and coaches) have a duty of care to their employees  and this has begun to have an unpleasant taste of bullying about it.  Bloggers blog, that's their job but there has to be a realisation that exposing individuals to abuse on and in the media might be reckless.  It might just be that Jack is a huge talent that refuses to accept that he needs to be a mongrel.  I have to say that many of his performances have been what's kept me going to games season after season. Anyway, that's my five cents worth. 

It's late over here.

  On 18/03/2017 at 23:12, Jimcor2 said:

I make no comment on the usefulness or otherise of the Leading Teams Model,  I don't know enough about it to form an opinion.  In fact, I would be a strong advocate for absolute honesty and accountability within the group.  My issue is with the efficacy of letting this become an issue outside of the group.  In my view (once again), this can only be counter-productive.  Managers (and coaches) have a duty of care to their employees  and this has begun to have an unpleasant taste of bullying about it.  Bloggers blog, that's their job but there has to be a realisation that exposing individuals to abuse on and in the media might be reckless.  It might just be that Jack is a huge talent that refuses to accept that he needs to be a mongrel.  I have to say that many of his performances have been what's kept me going to games season after season. Anyway, that's my five cents worth. 

It's late over here.

You said, "it is never wise to cause a subordinate unnecessary embarassment (sic) in front of their peers, never".

That's a very subjective statement open to arbitrary interpretations.  What you may find as unnecessary embarrassment may be vastly different to what is deemed acceptable in a football club.

Rather than lambast the football club for driving standards I'm surprised you and others aren't more perturbed by the actions (or non-actions) of the player in question.

In my view it's a storm in a teacup and not worthy of the angst seemingly caused to you and others. 

Alfie....Allfffeeeeee

Watts it all about ????

F'd if i can figure it out......

Feels like this story is ancient history now, but thought this was a good insight into Watts' perspective on the whole training standards thing. Sounds like he had a good attitude following the wake-up call.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-03-26/i-knew-i-was-a-good-enough-player-watts

Pretty sure I know why Jack's pre-season was off.  He's been moonlighting as a musician.