OSCAR McDONALD

[mauriesy 7,353]

3 hours ago, mo64 said:

Of course I think our list has improved, but it's only relevant if you're measuring it against the opposition.

I get it. Our list is over-rated and needs to build a winning culture, but we're not allowed to think development is needed because we need to 'win at all costs'.

I think that's it.

[mauriesy 7,353]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Who said i was slagging off Oscar?

I was referring to the OP who said "In what universe is this guy an AFL standard player? He is slow, lacks awareness, fumbly, easily pushed of the ball and just not up to it."

Also, you and I are not 'the club'. None of us here are.

 

[H_T 3,049]

2 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

I get it. Our list is over-rated and needs to build a winning culture, but we're not allowed to think development is needed because we need to 'win at all costs'.

I think that's it.

How do you build a winning culture I wonder...

Develop and teach. 

[mauriesy 7,353]

1 minute ago, H_T said:

How do you build a winning culture I wonder...

Develop and teach. 

Not according to mo64 and SWYL. You just go out there and win. At all costs.

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

12 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

I was referring to the OP who said "In what universe is this guy an AFL standard player? He is slow, lacks awareness, fumbly, easily pushed of the ball and just not up to it."

Also, you and I are not 'the club'. None of us here are.

 

Supporters are the blood supply of the club. Without support everything just dries up...

we are part of the whole deal

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

14 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Not according to mo64 and SWYL. You just go out there and win. At all costs.

Of course you develop and teach

But this club has hid behind that for a long time. 

It's time for the teaching to bring results...

[mauriesy 7,353]

Yeah, but what you say whining on here doesn't really matter a jot.

[binman 43,759]

2 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Not according to mo64 and SWYL. You just go out there and win. At all costs.

Because that is what Hawthorn did to build their dynasty. Not.

One of the most important impacts of Clarkson as a coach is his philosophy that first and foremost a coach is a teacher. Development is everything and players learning their 'craft' is the building block of development. 

All the successful assistants that have worked under Clarkson share this philosophy.

Roos always had this philosophy and not surprisingly so did David Parkin (who was a teacher. Interestingly Parkin was the first coach to try a succession plan where the coach in waiting developed under his watch - Brittan in his case). Roos has said this was a huge influence on him.

Win at all costs for developing teams is an attitude that is 20 years old,hence our selection of players such as Wagner and Hunt and the fact that week in week out we have the youngest list playing (even though we have senior players ready to roll in the twos eg Grimes and Dunn).

It could be argued (an indeed has been argued) that Ross Lyons' biggest weakness as coach is not taking the development route (and in particular not blooding youngsters) and prioritizing short term goals over development and long terms goals. Some argue that this is one reason why the Saints and Dockers both seemingly fell off a cliff ie going from being successful to also rans over night. Similarly the argument could be mounted that ensuring an ongoing focus on development has allowed the Hawks and Cats to avoid dropping off this cliff. 

It also explains why we don't try a b plan in games. We have to learn the a plan first. Why? Be case we are a developing side as opposed to sides such as Geelong and Hawthorn who are contending for flags.

Roos has been steadfast all along that his key task is to build a culture and game plan that wins final over a period, not just get us there. He is developing the list with this as the focus not short term winning ratio. 

[mauriesy 7,353]

6 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It's time for the teaching to bring results...

Are you saying it isn't, Mr Pessimistic?

You need to lift your eyes from looking down at the ground in front of your feet and look up to the sky. That's where we're heading, even if you can't bring yourself to look up.

[Old Bear 388]

Just finished watching replay 

great effort from Oscar 

future 200 game player 

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

52 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Yeah, but what you say whining on here doesn't really matter a jot.

Ditto...

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

43 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Are you saying it isn't, Mr Pessimistic?

You need to lift your eyes from looking down at the ground in front of your feet and look up to the sky. That's where we're heading, even if you can't bring yourself to look up.

Oh i am looking, but if players haven't got a clue what's going on, YET

They can learn their craft in the VFL

Oscar had no idea against the Bears. He is not ready. 

Play him in the next 2 weeks he is meat for the grinders...

 

[monoccular 17,573]

On 22 May 2016 at 7:34 AM, Cranky Franky said:

If Oscar was at Hawthorn or Geelong he would spend 40-50 games in the VFL developing his skills & learning the game which is what should happen to  most players unless they are super talented.

How our Brains Trust believe that Oscar is a better bet in defence than Frost has got me flummoxed. 

Do you KNOW that they think he is better than Frost?  They are managing a developing list.  Maybe they saw this as a good opportunity to get another game into Oscar whilst they also had a look at Frost as a defender at Casey   I don't know, but I do trust our current football department to have a bit of vision and planning for the future.

On 23 May 2016 at 9:37 AM, mauriesy said:

That's probably because the 'midgets' weigh more than Oscar McDonald. At the start of the season, Oscar was listed at 82kg, some considerable kilos less than players like Rich, Bastinac and Pearce and Bewick.

Freeman, for example, had 14kg on Oscar yesterday, plus a couple of centimetres. Tom Bell had 16kg. I heard a player from another club on the radio yesterday saying that in order to comfortably play as a key defender, he had added 16kg to his frame over the 5 years since he had been drafted. Tom McD is about 12kg heavier than Oscar with the extra 4 years experience.

Oscar therefore is a rangy, tall defender who needs some time to build an AFL-ready body. At the same time, some AFL level experience, combined with consolidation for periods at Casey, will benefit his development. Yesterday was a perfect match to give him some time.

I don't think we've reached that stage yet. Winning is great, but our window based on the age of our list opens in 2-3 years, and in the meantime development is still as important as winning.

Look at some of our team before yesterday and the number of games they've played:

Hogan 28
Petracca 3
Oliver 6
Stretch 14
Newton 15
Michie 20
Oscar Mc 3
Hunt 5
Neal-Bullen 11
Wagner 6
Harmes 16

That's half the team that has played less than 30 games. All 11 combined have a tally the same as Jack Watts, and about 25% of Brent Harvey's! I thought yesterday was a good result given the age dimension. My thinking is not only 'in the now' but two years down the track when all these players have added 30-40 games to their experience.

I don't know what everyone expects from players so young, but I expect them to make some mistakes. I'm not making excuses, because our season so far has been terrific, but let's be realistic.

Great perspective of where we are right now and what we need to do to improve.

On 23 May 2016 at 0:16 PM, mo64 said:

IMO, that's garbage. The mentality of "winning isn't important" results in the following:

1. Senior players who have been brought up in a losing culture will lose their motivation and intensity as the year progresses. We went down this path under Bailey. How did that end?

2. We won't attract A Grade Free Agents like Hurley.

3. We won't attract A Grade out of contract players like Prestia.

4. It will make it more difficult to retain out of contract players like T. Mac, and to re-sign Hogan early.

Other clubs around the same mark as us and higher can make marked improvements with some key acquisitions. We don't have a 1st round pick in this years draft, so a low finish is of no benefit.

Look, I like our list going forward, but we need to be a destination club NOW. That means winning at all costs.

I read the post differently than you did.   Nobody said winning is not important, but positioning the club for a decent crack at glory at a realistic time is perhaps more important, at this time.

Players looking for a move aren't (necessarily) stupid and can also look ahead at what is developing   

23 hours ago, Farmer said:

And there were a few, Barass included, who were no good in 1953! Even the first half of '54 was ordinary. I haven't checked but I bet that half way through the year we were not in the 4. We finished the season well, squeezed into Finals in 4th place but then won two finals before being smashed in the GF by the Bulldogs. A couple of good players retired after the 54 year, to take up employment opportunities in the bush or interstate--I often wonder how they feel about that decision. And 2 years later the best rover in the comp, Stuart Spencer retired at the absolute peak of his form to coach in Tassie. Owning and running his own service station was a big incentive when you were limited to 10 pounds per week from footy at the highest level

I would suspect that were the Internet and sites such as this around in 1953-54, posters would be calling for Smith's resignation / sacking.  A few may have looked forward and seen a dynasty developing.  

[mauriesy 7,353]

19 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Ditto...

1. At least I realise it.

2. I'm not whining.

[picket fence 17,500]

19 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Oh i am looking, but if players haven't got a clue what's going on, YET

They can learn their craft in the VFL

Oscar had no idea against the Bears. He is not ready. 

Play him in the next 2 weeks he is meat for the grinders...

 

Grind On! agree!

[mauriesy 7,353]

17 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

They can learn their craft in the VFL

This is not a knitting competition. It's not a 'craft', it's the rigours, intensity and bumps of AFL football.

Learning to play good football means understanding the speed of the game and the personal intensity and commitment required. Exposure to that can only be learnt at the highest level. Oscar is being exposed to it to make him better. In a game that we won by 10 goals FCS.

He might also be a better player when he goes back to the VFL for a while.

Tom MacDonald was exactly the same as Oscar when he first started. He debuted the year after he was drafted and hasn't looked back. No one even entertained a few years at Casey ... he was thrown in the deep end to a degree and he's probably better for it.

[DeeMfc 621]

Haven't read the whole thread so this may have been stated earlier but Tmac was slaughtered on this board much worse than Omac at the same stage of his career.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

20 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

This is not a knitting competition. It's not a 'craft', it's the rigours, intensity and bumps of AFL football.

Learning to play good football means understanding the speed of the game and the personal intensity and commitment required. Exposure to that can only be learnt at the highest level. Oscar is being exposed to it to make him better. In a game that we won by 10 goals FCS.

He might also be a better player when he goes back to the VFL for a while.

Tom MacDonald was exactly the same as Oscar when he first started. He debuted the year after he was drafted and hasn't looked back. No one even entertained a few years at Casey ... he was thrown in the deep end to a degree and he's probably better for it.

Really? Didn't he come in as a 3rd tall, behind Rivers and Frawley in a role that his attributes suit? 

Oscar's role at AFL level will be to play on the big forwards as he is much slower than Tom. He needs to get much stronger before he does this at AFL level. 

[Little Richard 6,265]

18 minutes ago, DeeMfc said:

Haven't read the whole thread so this may have been stated earlier but Tmac was slaughtered on this board much worse than Omac at the same stage of his career.

And still is by some.

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

50 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

AsThis is not a knitting competition. It's not a 'craft', it's the rigours, intensity and bumps of AFL football.

Learning to play good football means understanding the speed of the game and the personal intensity and commitment required. Exposure to that can only be learnt at the highest level. Oscar is being exposed to it to make him better. In a game that we won by 10 goals FCS.

He might also be a better player when he goes back to the VFL for a while.

Tom MacDonald was exactly the same as Oscar when he first started. He debuted the year after he was drafted and hasn't looked back. No one even entertained a few years at Casey ... he was thrown in the deep end to a degree and he's probably better for it.

Which is exactly the problem we have had for over a decade. 

Too many players gifted senior games when they were not ready. Getting physically and psychologically smashed wek in week out. 

Career finished. 

I am happy for Oscar to play against The Bears because they are pure sh!t, but even at that level he was way out of his depth. 

He needs work in the gym and work from the coaches at Casey for at least this season

if you think that is whining so be it. 

I call it observation

[Old Bear 388]

Watched the replay a Second time

This time Oscar definitely B O G

[ILLDieADemon 804]

The McDonald boys will take our defence to the next level.

[Adam The God 30,407]

11 hours ago, mo64 said:

You just stated that we're a 70-30 chance to make the finals next year. That's overrating us IMO.

Of course I think our list has improved, but it's only relevant if you're measuring it against the opposition.

And you're also measuring players careers that have finished (2012 list) against players careers that are essentially just starting. At the time, did you think that Morton, Moloney, Bleaes, Clark, Tapscott, Howe, Sylvia and garland would turn out how they did? Of course not.

Totally disagree. We're a very, very good chance to make finals next year.

11 hours ago, H_T said:

We're currently 5-4 with a percentage of 113% after 9 rounds in 9th. That's a fair sample size in anyone's book mo64. Granted, it might not be in yours if you think height is irrelevant in todays game!

We've played well and probably lucky to clinch the points v GWS. We've beaten Richmond and Collingwood - granted not at their best or strongest - but we played well doing so. We went toe to toe with the Doggies and they had the better of us in the middle and put our defence under immense pressure. We've taken North right to the line in a high scoring game.

Where we are at right now - I don't see why we would not be a 70-30 chance of making finals next year, or how that would be seen as overrating us. If the club continued on the upward curve of development and gave young players consecutive block of games - such as Wagner, Hunt, McDonald, NIBS, Kent etc - how else would the club seek to evolve in what it wants to evolve into? Sometimes it's a balancing act.

Petracca said it himself, he thought differently as to how AFL was going to be like - it was the speed of the game that was the biggest difference for him. He admittedly thought he was off the pace in his first game v St.Kilda. Then he knew what to expect, and what to take into the next game. And so on. It's called developing.

How else would the likes of O.McDonald find that out at Casey? We need to strengthen the defence by experience in order to evolve in what we seek. 

Completely agree, HT, which is exactly why OMac needs to keep playing at the top level. The VFL can only develop you so much. I'm glad the FD are letting him experience the big time.

10 hours ago, mo64 said:

I said O. Mac's height isn't relevant for a key backman. The best key backman of the past 20 years was Matty Scarlett, who was 192cm. Height doesn't stop a good key backman from winning a contest. A footy brain goes along way in the AFL.

Someone else pointed out that the only difference in our wins and losses compared to last year was the away win against GC (a basket case). We beat Richmond, Collingwood, GWS and Brisbane in Melbourne last year and this year. We beat the Dogs at the G last year, but lost to them this year.

Let's see how we go from now on. We still have to play top 8 teams like Hawthorn x 2, Swans, Geelong, Adelaide and WCE. If we don't win at least 11 games this year with the good injury run we've had, I fail to see how we all of a sudden become a 70% chance of making the finals next year.

Whilst none of us are saying we should rest on our laurels, for mine it's a rubbish argument that we beat those teams last year, therefore implying improvement is hard to measure. We beat them again this year and sit 5-4, rolling out the youngest side in the competition almost weekly. 

By 2017, the majority of these players will have had a season playing the Goodwin way and will be ready to take on any tinkerings to the game plan. Winning 5 out of 9 with the youthful team we have is very solid in a way and while I understand the desire for caution, let's be [censored] happy that our side is showing amazing improvement... 

I'm sorry, but you can't deny the facts. We're second for clearances in the competition (behind the Giants), we lead the competition for centre clearances and goal accuracy. We have also set a statistical record for scoring increase in a single season. These are statistical improvements that cannot be disputed.

There is no doubt (despite the errors our young players are making), we are on the rise. Given we sit in 9th position this season with such an inexperienced side, we'll certainly be ready to take on the top 8 next year. If everything goes right in the trade/draft period, the top 6 is possible, even the top 4 if we had some plausible things go our way (the acquisitions of Prestia and Hurley for example).

[Jaded No More 68,973]

KPDs take a long time. 

Anyone who saw the actual spud that Frawley was in his first couple of seasons or how Oscar's brother played in his first year will remember that they looked hopeless. 

Oscar needs at least 10kgs and 20 games to begin to look like a semi respectable player. Playing "softer" games like against Brisbane to gain experience is not a bad thing. It doesn't cost us much and it's good for his development. 

When half of Demonland wants Dunn and/or Garland banished to Africa, I'm not sure what the alternative is. We have to be patient. I see enough talent in him to justify it. 

[mo64 5,881]

8 hours ago, Jaded said:

KPDs take a long time. 

Anyone who saw the actual spud that Frawley was in his first couple of seasons or how Oscar's brother played in his first year will remember that they looked hopeless. 

Oscar needs at least 10kgs and 20 games to begin to look like a semi respectable player. Playing "softer" games like against Brisbane to gain experience is not a bad thing. It doesn't cost us much and it's good for his development. 

When half of Demonland wants Dunn and/or Garland banished to Africa, I'm not sure what the alternative is. We have to be patient. I see enough talent in him to justify it. 

Do people on here not see the importance of a settled backline, especially when we're implementing a new defensive structure? We've had a revolving door of KPDs this year. The FD should be playing whoever they think is the best KPD who'll help us win now. If that's O. Mac, fine, then stick with him. If it's Garland, ditto. IMO it's Dunn. The idea of playing O.Mac in "softer games" is ludicrous. We're not that good. Remember we lost to Essendon. 

Our backline has looked disjointed all year. I don't want to be giving games to players in the name of "development". IMO it's actually hurting our chances of winning games for the remainder of the year.