16 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I predict Smith and/or Wagner go past Jetta in 2017.

I also have strong doubts over Garlett.

Yep, I reckon you might be right, as much as I love Jets. 

I still reckon we're missing that small forward that'll get the job done in a finals campaign. Not sure that Garlett is the man.

24 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I predict Smith and/or Wagner go past Jetta in 2017.

I also have strong doubts over Garlett.

I reckon that's a pretty big call with regards to Jetta, he's one of our most reliable players down back, any particular reason you feel he might be overtaken or his spot might be at risk?

13 minutes ago, Abe said:

I reckon that's a pretty big call with regards to Jetta, he's one of our most reliable players down back, any particular reason you feel he might be overtaken or his spot might be at risk?

I agree, he's the only true small defender we have. While guys like Wagner, Hibberd, Hunt all play in the back 6, there more mid-size defenders than a true lock down small. Someone who'll play on the Eddie Betts types. I love that Jets has brought some more attacking play into his game last year, and suspect he might benefit from Hibberd's inclusion as much as anyone. 

44 minutes ago, Abe said:

I reckon that's a pretty big call with regards to Jetta, he's one of our most reliable players down back, any particular reason you feel he might be overtaken or his spot might be at risk?

I suspect PD's reasoning is the same as mine. He doesn't currently provide enough drive off half back and his kicking isn't attacking enough. He plays within his limitations a bit and is a gun IMO for it, but the way we're approaching our defensive set up, he may well be passed soon.

1 minute ago, A F said:

I suspect PD's reasoning is the same as mine. He doesn't currently provide enough drive off half back and his kicking isn't attacking enough. He plays within his limitations a bit and is a gun IMO for it, but the way we're approaching our defensive set up, he may well be passed soon.

Offensively he plays within his limits, but i still think he's an effective user of the ball, but he's also potentially one of our best 1 on 1 defenders so in terms of being a two way player he's a real asset down back, especially given next year we'll have Hunt and Hibberd there who do have serious weapons off half back, it's important to have steady players as well.

25 minutes ago, Abe said:

Offensively he plays within his limits, but i still think he's an effective user of the ball, but he's also potentially one of our best 1 on 1 defenders so in terms of being a two way player he's a real asset down back, especially given next year we'll have Hunt and Hibberd there who do have serious weapons off half back, it's important to have steady players as well.

Agreed, mate.

1 hour ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

With regards to Jetta, if any player is equally as good defensively but can offer more going the other way he takes Jetta's spot. That's not to say I don't like or rate Jetta, but it's about what is best for the team. Whilst I see the role of small forward as a specialist position I can't say the same for that of small defender. To me  the next best mid/flanker takes that spot after all other midfield roles are filled. Geelong and Hawthorn have been great at doing this giving their teams great flexibility.

Perhaps I need to clarify my comment Bombay. It's not that I cannot see Jetta being replaced at some point but rather that I don't see  Milkshake as an automatic  replacement or even as an immediate selection as many do. He is a workmanlike performer who has been out of football for a year. He has to a bit to prove before he gets a game.

59 minutes ago, Abe said:

I reckon that's a pretty big call with regards to Jetta...

That's why I made it.  Easy calls are easy calls. 

Jetta is our best lock down defender and has improved his attacking game, but it's still below what I'd like.  His kicking and creativity is lacking.  

I want us to be a top 4 side, which for me means moving past players of Jetta's calibre.  He's a good player, but not good enough or damaging enough with his disposal for my liking. 

Now, if Smith or Wagner cannot defend a small like Betts or Wingard for example as well as Jetta then Jetta stays ahead in the pecking order.  But if they can then they immediately go ahead in my rankings.

Now I know Smith is a bit of an unknown quantity, but I've heard that internally they rate his talent up there with Hunt and I've loved the glimpses I've seen at Casey.  He has pace to burn and serious x-factor.

In an ideal world my back 6 would be:

Wagner  O. McDonald  Frost

Smith  T. McDonald  Hibberd

I have some reservations about moving Hunt to a wing, because my suspicion is he plays better behind the ball, but then I say why can't he play up the ground ?

If Hunt to a wing worked it would be a gamebreaker for the Dees and really elevate the team's performance.

Just my take.

6 minutes ago, ProDee said:

That's why I made it.  Easy calls are easy calls. 

Jetta is our best lock down defender and has improved his attacking game, but it's still below what I'd like.  His kicking and creativity is lacking.  

I want us to be a top 4 side, which for me means moving past players of Jetta's calibre.  He's a good player, but not good enough or damaging enough with his disposal for my liking. 

Now, if Smith or Wagner cannot defend a small like Betts or Wingard for example as well as Jetta then Jetta stays ahead in the pecking order.  But if they can then they immediately go ahead in my rankings.

Now I know Smith is a bit of an unknown quantity, but I've heard that internally they rate his talent up there with Hunt and I've loved the glimpses I've seen at Casey.  He has pace to burn and serious x-factor.

In an ideal world my back 6 would be:

Wagner  O. McDonald  Frost

Smith  T. McDonald  Hibberd

I have some reservations about moving Hunt to a wing, because my suspicion is he plays better behind the ball, but then I say why can't he play up the ground ?

If Hunt to a wing worked it would be a gamebreaker for the Dees and really elevate the team's performance.

Just my take.

I think the biggest factor with regards to selection is going to be who fits into the zone the best of the players on the list, i am not sold on Frost just yet, i think he has some tools but i am not convinced he's going to make it right at this point.

I think we rate both Jetta and Wagner a bit differently, i quite like that Jetta is steady and plays within his limits, i think you need those players in the modern game and his experience and composure in the backline may be important in big finals games moving forward, i liken him a bit to Matty Boyd and Dale Morris at the Dogs who can be attacking weapons but they're very steady and play within their limits and do that extremely well.

I think you're right in your point that if either can defend as well as Jetta they will play ahead of him, but given i see Jetta as our best pure defender it would be a huge effort, if either can jump that much in their development this off season they absolutely deserve a place in the side, regardless of who goes out for them.

I reckon the player most at risk from Wagner is Melksham, i really don't rate him as highly as some others and if the plan is still to rotate him off half back/the wing i think Wagner will be keeping the pressure right on his spot.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, ProDee said:

That's why I made it.  Easy calls are easy calls. 

Jetta is our best lock down defender and has improved his attacking game, but it's still below what I'd like.  His kicking and creativity is lacking.  

I want us to be a top 4 side, which for me means moving past players of Jetta's calibre.  He's a good player, but not good enough or damaging enough with his disposal for my liking.

I think Jetta will stay ahead in the pecking order simply because the others (Wagner and Smith) lack the raw aggression that he brings to the game.  I'm not too concerned over his disposal by foot as his job is more to lock the ball down and get it to someone who can move it out of defence quickly (Hunt etc). Like you, this is just my take on it.

51 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Perhaps I need to clarify my comment Bombay. It's not that I cannot see Jetta being replaced at some point but rather that I don't see  Milkshake as an automatic  replacement or even as an immediate selection as many do. He is a workmanlike performer who has been out of football for a year. He has to a bit to prove before he gets a game.

Fair call BBO, for me it's a bit like the Weed/Pedo scenario.

11 minutes ago, hardtack said:

I think Jetta will stay ahead in the pecking order simply because the others (Wagner and Smith) lack the raw aggression that he brings to the game.  I'm not too concerned over his disposal by foot as his job is more to lock the ball down and get it to someone who can move it out of defence quickly (Hunt etc). Like you, this is just my take on it.

Aggression is great and something we've lacked but it can only take you so far.

Flexibility is the key. 

2 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Aggression is great and something we've lacked but it can only take you so far.

Flexibility is the key. 

Not every player needs to be flexible... sometimes there can be an advantage in having a playing who is good at just one thing, and I feel that in defence that is not always such a bad quality to possess.

34 minutes ago, hardtack said:

Not every player needs to be flexible... sometimes there can be an advantage in having a playing who is good at just one thing, and I feel that in defence that is not always such a bad quality to possess.

I like to look at the blueprint of successful teams. 

During their 3 flags Hawthorn mainly rotated the following 8 or 9 players through defence:

Lake, Frawley, Gibson, Stratton, Hodge, Burgoyne, Burchill, Duryea, & Suckling.  None are a limited lock down defender.  There are lots of left-footers and all of the midsize players use the footy brilliantly by foot.  Jetta doesn't displace any of the above.  And they are all able to play taller than Jetta, who can get caught out on a mismatch.

Jetta is a good player, but my hope is we develop a premiership quality back 6/7 that goes past a player of Jetta's obvious limitations.

Edited November 1, 20168 yr by ProDee

10 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I look to look at the blueprint of successful teams. 

During their 3 flags Hawthorn mainly rotated the following 8 or 9 players through defence:

Lake, Frawley, Gibson, Stratton, Hodge, Burgoyne, Burchill, Duryea, & Suckling.  None are a limited lock down defender.  There are lots of left-footers and all of the midsize players use the footy brilliantly by foot.  Jetta doesn't displace any of the above.  And they are all able to play taller than Jetta, who can get caught out on a mismatch.

Jetta is a good player, but my hope is we develop a premiership quality back 6/7 that goes past a player of Jetta's obvious limitations.

Fair enough... I'm just not unhappy that we have him there in the meantime :-)

16 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I look to look at the blueprint of successful teams. 

During their 3 flags Hawthorn mainly rotated the following 8 or 9 players through defence:

Lake, Frawley, Gibson, Stratton, Hodge, Burgoyne, Burchill, Duryea, & Suckling.  None are a limited lock down defender.  There are lots of left-footers and all of the midsize players use the footy brilliantly by foot.  Jetta doesn't displace any of the above.  And they are all able to play taller than Jetta, who can get caught out on a mismatch.

Jetta is a good player, but my hope is we develop a premiership quality back 6/7 that goes past a player of Jetta's obvious limitations.

I would argue that Stratton who is extremly highly rated within the Hawks is quite similar to Jetta, he's steady, shuts down his opponent and plays within his limitations offensively. they have some real run off half back through other players but have a great balance of offense and defense in the backline, but as you say, if Wagner or Smith was close to as good as Jetta defensively they become a much better option.

other examples being Nick Smith at the Swans, Dale Morris at the dogs, they're really strong defenders and steady players who don't try and do things they aren't capable offensively, and having this balance allows others to be a little bit more attacking at times.

So we definitely should be aiming to improve all the time, but i think Jetta offers something the others just don't, and something that seems to be present in very good teams that go deep into finals.

Edited November 1, 20168 yr by Abe

6 minutes ago, Abe said:

I would argue that Stratton who is extremly highly rated within the Hawks is quite similar to Jetta, he's steady, shuts down his opponent and plays within his limitations offensively. they have some real run off half back through other players but have a great balance of offense and defense in the backline, but as you say, if Wagner or Smith was close to as good as Jetta defensively they become a much better option.

other examples being Nick Smith at the Swans, Dale Morris at the dogs, they're really strong defenders and steady players who don't try and do things they aren't capable offensively, and having this balance allows others to be a little bit more attacking at times.

So we definitely should be aiming to improve all the time, but i think Jetta offers something the others just don't, and something that seems to be present in very good teams that go deep into finals.

Stratton is a key position player, not a small back.  Morris is an undersized key defender, not a small back.  Smith is a gun.

The likelihood is that Jetta plays, it's just my hope that he becomes redundant sooner rather than later. 

1 hour ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Perhaps I need to clarify my comment Bombay. It's not that I cannot see Jetta being replaced at some point but rather that I don't see  Milkshake as an automatic  replacement or even as an immediate selection as many do. He is a workmanlike performer who has been out of football for a year. He has to a bit to prove before he gets a game.

Milkshake is an interesting one BBO. His past seasons have shown an element of feast or famine. When he's on song, he's certainly in our best 22. His bad has been very bad and therein lies the challenge for player and club. Goodwin would know this.

Melksham is a gun. He will perform in the big games!

1 minute ago, Thehardtackler said:

Melksham is a gun. He will perform in the big games!

Very big statement.

B: Jetta T.McD Frost

HB: Vince O.McD Hibberd 

C: Hunt Lewis Tyson

HF: Petracca Hogan Kent

F: Garlett Pederson Watts

Foll: Gawn Viney N.Jones

Bench: Oliver Brayshaw Melksham Salem

Unlucky ommissions: Bugg, Wagner, Stretch, Lumumba, Weideman.

Notes: I really tossed up between Pederson and Weideman. If we were facing a lower team, such as GC or Carlton etc, I would be prepared to give Weid a shot at starting. But, given we've drawn St Kilda at Etihad, I've opted for Pederson's bigger body and although he's clearly divisive amongst supporters, I like his ability to give and take a hit.          

Bugg is another who I consider who is particularly unlucky. Personally, I love him and how he goes about his football, but with the inclusion of Hibberd and the Saints running with Riewoldt/Bruce and Memebrey down forward, I don't necessarily see an equitable match-up for him. I'd much rather have TMac to Roo, OMac on Membrey and Frost taking Bruce. 

If Lumumba was to get his body right, I reckon we could use his line-breaking ability on Etihad's fast pitch. However, given the season he's just endured, I doubt you could make an argument that he would be ahead of Vince or Hibberd. 

It's nice to finally see a side where there are players unlucky on missing on out and we're no longer trying to forcibly merely put a 'competitive' side on th ground, circa 2012-2014. 

Given the inclusions we've obtained over the off-season I can't see Harmes getting a gig. His accountability with the ball in hand is shocking. In previous seasons, he's a player we would've carried through, but I'd have Vince/Hibberd/Hunt/Wagner/Melksham/Salem and Bugg ahead of him. In saying that, the FD clearly rate him so in all likelihood, I do concede he would potentially be lining up somewhere for us. I just hope if that eventuates it isn't down forward because that experiment really failed IMO. 

1 hour ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Fair call BBO, for me it's a bit like the Weed/Pedo scenario.

Yes I agree Bombay, very similar situation but I feel more confident that Weed will displace Pedo by season's end.

46 minutes ago, Thehardtackler said:

Melksham is a gun. He will perform in the big games!

I've always found Melksham at Essendon as underwhelming, so i'd be suprised if he turned into a gun for us. Hes averaged 16.5 disposals per game at Essendon (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-melbourne-demons--jake-melksham) which i might accept for a first/second year player with potential. We will see how he goes next year (i really have no idea if he will play a game or if he won't miss a game etc.).

As long as whoever is in performs great.

9 hours ago, ProDee said:

I like to look at the blueprint of successful teams. 

During their 3 flags Hawthorn mainly rotated the following 8 or 9 players through defence:

Lake, Frawley, Gibson, Stratton, Hodge, Burgoyne, Burchill, Duryea, & Suckling.  None are a limited lock down defender.  There are lots of left-footers and all of the midsize players use the footy brilliantly by foot.  Jetta doesn't displace any of the above.  And they are all able to play taller than Jetta, who can get caught out on a mismatch.

Jetta is a good player, but my hope is we develop a premiership quality back 6/7 that goes past a player of Jetta's obvious limitations.

Jetta is better than Duryea IMO, but I agree with the rest. Duryea is a good kick, but not great and is nowhere near the defender Jetta is.

Jetta could well improve his kicking and his attacking off half back, and he'll have to if we want to challenge for the top 4.

14 minutes ago, A F said:

Jetta is better than Duryea IMO, but I agree with the rest. Duryea is a good kick, but not great and is nowhere near the defender Jetta is.

Jetta could well improve his kicking and his attacking off half back, and he'll have to if we want to challenge for the top 4.

Jetta is a  far better stopper, but I suspect you underrate Duryea's smarts and setup.