Subtle ??? Fmd...sledgehammers are more subtle lol

We haven't won yet. Should do.

No we haven't, but what we have achieved is to have it taken out of the hands of the powerful vested interests who seek to influence an outcome to their own advantage.

I, for one, am comfortable with that. If at the end of the day CAS decide there is no case, then there is no case. I don't for a moment believe that will be the situation, but at least that will be a considered and fair outcome.

Dees2014... We are kindred.

We see much for what it is. The course is obvious, well to us.strangely it may be as obvious to those affected hence there continual bombardment. It's like a train, we know it's travelling to the inevitable destination but sabatuoers exist. Why certain elements of the 4th estate persist strikes me as amazing.

sadly, if the verdict at cas goes against essendon, most essendon supporters will never accept it

it will be lindy chamberlain mark II

unless if course someone breaks rank and whistleblows or confesses

sadly, if the verdict at cas goes against essendon, most essendon supporters will never accept it

it will be lindy chamberlain mark II

unless if course someone breaks rank and whistleblows or confesses

Which I think will be the next development, particularly from the past players in the 34 and the players at other clubs. My understanding is that many of the players are currently getting legal advice (usually through surrogates to avoid Hird finding out), and once the outcome looks inevitable, presumably the writs will start flying as they desperately position themselves for advantage.

Before that though, I suspect WADA will be doing a good deal of plea bargaining to persuade at least some players and maybe certain drug "scientists" to testify against Hird and Dank in return for lighter sentences. Once that happens, the flood will make the Damb Busters look tame! We must remember in this, the CAS hearing is not just a re-examination of existing evidence, it is in effect a new "trial" where new evidence is acceptable. I have no doubt WADA will take advantage of this as the parties manoeuvre to avoid the worst consequences of what is increasingly looking inevitable.

My hot tip? Hird will be fired and sue the AFL, The Age and Caroline Wilson, Gerard Whateley, David Evans, Essendon, McDevitt, Coates, Little, Patrick Smith, - and that's just the start. And you know what? He will lose the lot.

The gift that keeps on giving to the Legal profession.

Edited June 2, 201510 yr by Dees2014

I guess what you call records and what I call records differs somewhat, especially given you think records that cant even be produced in defence of the players are actually records, and satisfy being called records of a legal program.

If this wasn't the case your answer to the question "Do you honestly believe they had no records of a legal drug program?" would need to change.

At risk of sounding like a cracked record, really I think everyone should read the Helsinki convention on human experimentation

At its core it requires that records must be kept and that these records should be peer reviewed (all aside from risk / benefit etc)

This certainly does not seem to have happened

On face value they have breached an important international convention

Why has nobody, especially "impartial" journalists, not pursued this line

Criminal failure

Edited June 2, 201510 yr by monoccular

It's already happening.......behind closed doors

sadly, if the verdict at cas goes against essendon, most essendon supporters will never accept it

it will be lindy chamberlain mark II

unless if course someone breaks rank and whistleblows or confesses

I suppose that it is better than that classic head in the sand, Neville Chamberlain.

sadly, if the verdict at cas goes against essendon, most essendon supporters will never accept it

Lucky their opinion is irrelevant. I will enjoy their tears immensely.

Case probably at its most interesting now because of so many wide and varied prognostications.

Complications being that vested interests are not going to sit around and just let it happen.

I suppose that it is better than that classic head in the sand, Neville Chamberlain.

ol M

Nev actually believed his stupidity. Lindy was adamant and strangely her cause also relied upon interpretation and just a bit of luck.

Essendons cause relies upon the Ol boys club holding fast.

Chances are ...rats are building owns nests...as they do

Dank is starting to become about as delusional as Hird

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/sports-scientist-stephen-dank-dismissive-of-wada-appeal-20150602-ghf9vn.html

I am hearing that WADA are lining up some additional new witnesses for their European hearing, I wonder if they have "landed'' Dank. If so, it would put "the cat among the pigeons" , particularly if it was on some sort of ''plea bargaining'' basis. Now I know Dank is hardly the most reliable witness, but if he was confronted in the witness box under oath by a counsel as skilled as WADA's American prosecutor, it would be truly revealing.

I understand "plea bargaining" may also be going on with the players, their lawyers and their agents, particularly ex players.

I think there are a lot more twists in this story yet, and they look like being nearly all bad news for Hird and Essendon.

"I'm certainly not going to go over there at my own expense. That is money I'd prefer to put towards animal rights."

priceless

I'm not so sure that there will be any plea bargaining. If someone gets a light sentence, then it will be clear they were the one(s) who cracked. Current players at EFC wouldn't dare, and probably nor would those playing at other clubs. Ex-players might, though if they still wished to keep playing in some league, then they might decide to stick with denial and cross their fingers. And if they have completely given up footy, perhaps they wouldn't bother to dob people in, especially if they wanted to maintain friends in the footy world.

priceless

Maybe the reason he ran the experiment on the players was because of his deep seated concerns over animal rights and experimentation. It all starts to make more sense!

priceless

Haha, I was just about to highlight that same piece.

It only irks me that the EFC still have willing listeners where they oughtn't !!!

I'll bet it irks WADA too, to see EFC and its tame journos lobbying the Australian public to barrack against the clean sport people; and lobbying successfully it seems.

While WADA try to retrospectively get the gate closed on Essendon's anti-sport behaviour, maybe it's too late - the Essendon lobbyists have gotten up a revolution against fences, and people seem to be buying it. They actually don't care about what Essendon did - that just isn't the story. Maybe any punishment of Essendon will be hated - and effectively result in no message at all other than the football crowd and the AFL telling ASADA/WADA/CAS "leave us alone!" And close ranks around the "victims", and restore them by whatever means can be gotten away with. Maybe Essendon's time-wasting was not only to have the 34 retire before any sanctions could be applied, but also time for getting the public on side - via spin, an alternative story of underdog heroism, and investigation fatigue - "it's all just taken too long..." The race to the finals is the overwhelming reality in play.

Essendon have consistently refused to discuss the issue of what was injected - and their exoneration has always been in terms of "you had no right to challenge us over it like this" and "you couldn't prove it" - never a case showing "we didn't do it". To Essendon, drugs in sport is just not to be the issue, and nor is it to apparently increasingly large numbers of football people in the press and the grandstands. So that regardless of any decision WADA might come up with, the collective AFL mind is pretty decided - they want Essendon. The more they're castigated from afar, the more they become Jung's folk heroes.

Are we who wait on WADA hoping for what is fast becoming an irrelevancy? Like the way the letter of the law ("man and a woman") is now just irrelevant against the tide pushing for "marriage equality"? Or how one country after another is legalising marijuana? Politicians lying no longer counts, it just doesn't matter. Sports Science is as acceptable as full-body lycra, perhaps? "Supplements" - how can the public be expected to get on board an arbitrary list drawn up by who-knows-who, overseas? I'm depressing myself...

BB, are we trying to apply standards that faded away a while ago? Saying "ought" when there is no longer any consensus about the rights and wrongs, no matter what the rules still say? Has our thinking passed into the past?

I notice in today's HUN that ASADA is sending funds to WADA to help in the fight.

This suggests to me that WADA is under funded.

Anyone know how this mob is funded.

Already smells like the Boys from out North will out last them.

I'll bet it irks WADA too, to see EFC and its tame journos lobbying the Australian public to barrack against the clean sport people; and lobbying successfully it seems.

While WADA try to retrospectively get the gate closed on Essendon's anti-sport behaviour, maybe it's too late - the Essendon lobbyists have gotten up a revolution against fences, and people seem to be buying it. They actually don't care about what Essendon did - that just isn't the story. Maybe any punishment of Essendon will be hated - and effectively result in no message at all other than the football crowd and the AFL telling ASADA/WADA/CAS "leave us alone!" And close ranks around the "victims", and restore them by whatever means can be gotten away with. Maybe Essendon's time-wasting was not only to have the 34 retire before any sanctions could be applied, but also time for getting the public on side - via spin, an alternative story of underdog heroism, and investigation fatigue - "it's all just taken too long..." The race to the finals is the overwhelming reality in play.

Essendon have consistently refused to discuss the issue of what was injected - and their exoneration has always been in terms of "you had no right to challenge us over it like this" and "you couldn't prove it" - never a case showing "we didn't do it". To Essendon, drugs in sport is just not to be the issue, and nor is it to apparently increasingly large numbers of football people in the press and the grandstands. So that regardless of any decision WADA might come up with, the collective AFL mind is pretty decided - they want Essendon. The more they're castigated from afar, the more they become Jung's folk heroes.

Are we who wait on WADA hoping for what is fast becoming an irrelevancy? Like the way the letter of the law ("man and a woman") is now just irrelevant against the tide pushing for "marriage equality"? Or how one country after another is legalising marijuana? Politicians lying no longer counts, it just doesn't matter. Sports Science is as acceptable as full-body lycra, perhaps? "Supplements" - how can the public be expected to get on board an arbitrary list drawn up by who-knows-who, overseas? I'm depressing myself...

BB, are we trying to apply standards that faded away a while ago? Saying "ought" when there is no longer any consensus about the rights and wrongs, no matter what the rules still say? Has our thinking passed into the past?

Good post, but i really think it misses the fundamental point here. It no longer matters what the Australian public, the AFL, the Federal government, James Hird, Gillon Mclauchlan, mark robinson, rupert murdoch think anymore. it is no longer in their power to influence. It is with CAS, far away in Switzerland, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Let's enjoy the ride, and watch at last this disgraceful episode come to an end in a just and balanced way.

Edited June 3, 201510 yr by Dees2014

Good post, but i really think it misses the fundamental point here. It no longer matters what the Australian public, the AFL, the Federal government, James Hird, Gillon Mclauchlan, mark robinson, rupert murdoch think anymore. it is no longer in their power to influence. It is with CAS, far away in Switzerland, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

it is wonderfu!. Enjoy the ride. And watch at last this disgraceful episode come to an end in a just and balanced way.

It may not matter to the CAS decision but it will to what happens next. If they are found guilty, then there will be loads of sympathy for EFC and the AFL will have no hesitation in helping them out of a hole (which will be to the great disadvantage of clubs like ours).

If innocent, knowing the AFL, they will probably give them an extra early draft pick to compensate for all the pain and suffering they have undergone.

Good post, but i really think it misses the fundamental point here. It no longer matters what the Australian public, the AFL, the Federal government, James Hird, Gillon Mclauchlan, mark robinson, rupert murdoch think anymore. it is no longer in their power to influence. It is with CAS, far away in Switzerland, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

it is wonderfu!. Enjoy the ride. And watch at last this disgraceful episode come to an end in a just and balanced way.

I think I get the fundamental point - nothing can stop WADA sorting it all and delivering an unbiased unpragmatic finding; but my point is, will it have traction here? "Far away in Switzerland" works two ways. I expect CAS will clobber Essendon and their players - but the AFL, the media and the public look like they will be rushing to the aid of the party. Some players will suffer from the judgment no doubt, but the club? A change of faces and on we go, I suspect; with dodgy concessions from the AFL: Friday night games, list-filling measures, etc..

Of course I want to see Essendon slaughtered for their misdeeds, but I also want drug experiments deterred with such severity that the game is clean in future. I cannot get interested in car racing for example, where it's technology that mostly decides. I love the stretching of what we see human beings doing - through dedication, imagination and focus. The mind - not the laboratory. If a finding against Essendon at CAS does not result in the AFL, the media and the public being disgusted and turning their backs to Essendon, then it will merely be an inconvenience, a job for the PR boys, damage limitation and ultimately a set-back, a challenge, in their pursuit of the same goal they had their sights on when apprehended. Just need to be cleverer next time....

I'm naive. I want public disgrace, back from which they cannot crawl. Partly my outrage, but partly because I hate the thought of the cost of cheating being affordable. As I see it, CAS simply can't do it all, not from that distance, with the powers they have, against all the on-the-ground resources Essendon has. Athens found, Napoleon found, America has repeatedly found - you can't fight a war that far from home. I'd really wanted to see the forces here lining up alongside WADA. Maybe the Federal Government wlll, under pressure from the Olympics crowd. But the failure of Australians - especially in the football world - to align with WADA gives me real disquiet.

Edit: what on earth have I done there?

Nasher edit: fixed it for you.

Edited June 3, 201510 yr by Nasher

Edit: what on earth have I done there?

on drugs by the look of it

I would hope that a decision of guilt would be spelt out in such a way by WADA/CAS that even the most ignorant of Australians (and there are a few) would realise like the USA Public

did that its (a guilty decision's) magnitude has/will/could/would save lives.

I think it is intriguing that now we have achieved our objective of getting an even-handed assessment and judgement about the goings on with the Essendon drugs program, that there are some on here still don't like it. Their fears appear to be that somehow we (the Demons) will be disadvantaged and that the AFL will turn around and give them (Essendon) lots of money and draft picks to our disadvantage.

Well can I say I for one have no wish to destroy Essendon as a Club. They are integral to the health of the AFL competition and indeed the code in general. What I am vitally interested in though is that the regime and the people who perpetrated their drug taking for competitive advantage then sought to cover it it up via manipulation and lying, are utterly and completely destroyed. They have to be totally sidelined and every one of them be excluded from any further participation in sport whether it be here or in any other country around the world. That may also include a good portion of their players receiving sentences of 2-4 years. That more than anything will send the message around the world that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated in team sports, and that if anyone tries they will be hunted down and destroyed with single minded ruthfulness. And this is where we are at, and I for one can only say "hooray"

Essendon in these circumstances may attract subsidies from the AFL to help them get back on their feet, but it will be from a very low base. Under these conditions, if we cannot compete with them then we also have no business being in the competition. We should not seek to benefit from their weakness, but rather learn from it and use it to make us stronger.

Essendon as a club are not the enemy here. The people who perpetrated these deeds are, and have to be banished from sport completely to allow Essendon to rebuild, and to reassure the rest of us that these practices and these people will never be allowed to re-emerge in the future.

Edited June 3, 201510 yr by Dees2014

I think it is intriguing that now we have achieved our objective of getting an even-handed assessment and judgement about the goings on with the Essendon drugs program, that there are some on here still don't like it. Their fears appear to be that somehow we (the Demons) will be disadvantaged and that the AFL will turn around and give them (Essendon) lots of money and draft picks to our disadvantage.

Well can I say I for one have no wish to destroy Essendon as a Club. They are integral to the health of the AFL competition and indeed the code in general. What I am vitally interested in though is that the regime and the people who perpetrated their drug taking for competitive advantage then sought to cover it it up via manipulation and lying, are utterly and completely destroyed. They have to be totally sidelined and every one of them be excluded from any further participation in sport whether it be here or in any other country around the world. That may also include a good portion of their players receiving sentences of 2-4 years. That more than anything will send the message around the world that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated in team sports, and that if anyone tries they will be hunted down and destroyed with single minded ruthfulness. And this is where we are at, and I for one can only say "hooray"

Essendon in these circumstances may attract subsidies from the AFL to help them get back on their feet, but it will be from a very low base. Under these conditions, if we cannot compete with them then we also have no business being in the competition. We should not seek to benefit from their weakness, but rather learn from it and use it to make us stronger.

Essendon as a club are not the enemy here. The people who perpetrated these deeds are, and have to be banished from sport completely to allow Essendon to rebuild, and to reassure the rest of us that these practices and these people will never be allowed to re-emerge in the future.

I don't think the want is for us to benefit from their demise, or that they should be closed down. The fear comes from knowing the AFL and the boys club involved and seeing the writing on the wall that the AFL will give the Dons the type of draft concessions they bestowed on the two new clubs. The same concessions that have contributed to holding us back, and the other clubs at the bottom.

It is more a fear of being disadvantaged due to the AFL rebuilding the Dons just to watch them benefit in the long run and having the clubs that actually pay for their rebuild being those stuck at the bottom, such as us. I guess it would be another example of the big clubs getting anything to remain big, while the little clubs get small handouts and told to keep quiet, look at our fixture from a commercial point of view for a good example.

I think I get the fundamental point - nothing can stop WADA sorting it all and delivering an unbiased unpragmatic finding; but my point is, will it have traction here? "Far away in Switzerland" works two ways. I expect CAS will clobber Essendon and their players - but the AFL, the media and the public look like they will be rushing to the aid of the party. Some players will suffer from the judgment no doubt, but the club? A change of faces and on we go, I suspect; with dodgy concessions from the AFL: Friday night games, list-filling measures, etc..

Of course I want to see Essendon slaughtered for their misdeeds, but I also want drug experiments deterred with such severity that the game is clean in future. I cannot get interested in car racing for example, where it's technology that mostly decides. I love the stretching of what we see human beings doing - through dedication, imagination and focus. The mind - not the laboratory. If a finding against Essendon at CAS does not result in the AFL, the media and the public being disgusted and turning their backs to Essendon, then it will merely be an inconvenience, a job for the PR boys, damage limitation and ultimately a set-back, a challenge, in their pursuit of the same goal they had their sights on when apprehended. Just need to be cleverer next time....

I'm naive. I want public disgrace, back from which they cannot crawl. Partly my outrage, but partly because I hate the thought of the cost of cheating being affordable. As I see it, CAS simply can't do it all, not from that distance, with the powers they have, against all the on-the-ground resources Essendon has. Athens found, Napoleon found, America has repeatedly found - you can't fight a war that far from home. I'd really wanted to see the forces here lining up alongside WADA. Maybe the Federal Government wlll, under pressure from the Olympics crowd. But the failure of Australians - especially in the football world - to align with WADA gives me real disquiet.

Edit: what on earth have I done there?

Nasher edit: fixed it for you.

Nasher, my man! I have staff!