THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

12 hours ago, biggestred said:

They don't get it do they?

The layman out there and fans of 17 other clubs can see that essendon were up to no good and that the afl have done nothing about it.

Everyone thinks they are drug cheats bar the essendon faithful.

Even if Cas clear the players we will still think they are cheats (it's not as if they have shown anything otherwise).

The afl would do well to condemned their total lack of governanceas as well as their extremely dodgy supplements practices.

I'm not an Essendon faithful, and I don't think they are "drug cheats"...yet. If CAS finds they were, then I'll accept they were. If CAS is not satisfied they were, then I'll be satisfied they were not. 

[nutbean 8,837]

15 hours ago, Ted Fidge said:

The guy's seriously behind the times. All his arguments were hashed, re-hashed, de-hashed, re-re-hashed, mashed, bashed and thrashed out three years ago.

you forgot the all important "trashed"

[ManDee 7,096]

13 hours ago, hemingway said:

There mates no doubt. Who knows what the business connections are but my suspicion is that they are there. There are always mates clubs and the AFL and its member clubs are one big mates club. They all have a finger in the pie of mutual need, giving, receiving, and self congratulation. Ask a non footy person who has been involved in footy clubs and the ones I know are very disparaging of the culture of stratching backs that goes on within the inner circle both within clubs and between club heavyweights and the AFL. The AFL is hopelessly compromised. They should not be but that is the way. The only thing one can enjoy is the purity of the game itself but even that is being devalued by commercial need and demands by the TV networks. 

Never thought I would point out an error in Hemingway.

Edited December 22, 2015 by ManDee
I had to fix one of my own errors 2 m's in hemingway

[binman 39,462]

23 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Never though I would point out an error in Hemingway.

And ironically didn't fix them all !

Edited December 22, 2015 by binman

[ManDee 7,096]

1 minute ago, binman said:

And ironically didn't fix them all !

Fantastic, thanks.

[binman 39,462]

1 minute ago, ManDee said:

Fantastic, thanks.

What was more ironic was that i initially misspelt ironically

... and changed it before you could point it out

(note: misspelt comes a spell check error, whic is an error by spellcheck i believe)

[ManDee 7,096]

9 minutes ago, binman said:

What was more ironic was that i initially misspelt ironically

... and changed it before you could point it out

(note: misspelt comes a spell check error, whic is an error by spellcheck i believe)

This is fantastic, some would call it a cluster ####

[Ted Lasso 17,307]

It begins..

[ManDee 7,096]

46 minutes ago, Peter Griffen said:

It begins..

From:- The Age

AFL: Essendon showed 'significant disregard' for players' safety
Date
December 22, 2015 - 11:27AM

Mark Russell, Tammy Mills
 

The Essendon Football Club had been guilty of "a significant measure of disregard" for the safety of its payers when subjecting them to the controversial supplements program, a court has heard.

Barrister Ross Ray, QC, representing WorkSafe, told the Melbourne Magistrates Court that Essendon's conduct had been a substantial departure of its duty of care to a relatively large number of young and vulnerable players put at risk by the experimental program.

Mr Ray said that because of poor record-keeping when the program was in place, it was impossible to say with certainty what substances had been administered to the players by sports scientist Stephen Dank.

He said the program's vagueness and imprecision had been part of the "unsafe system".

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The barrister told magistrate Peter Reardon there was no evidence that the substances given to the players had been harmful to their health or any player had been affected by being injected with them, but their health continued to be monitored.

But Mr Ray said the evidence painted a disturbing picture of an out-of-control pharmacological experiment. Asked by Mr Reardon if Dank had had any medical qualifications, Mr Ray said: "No."

Essendon formally pleaded guilty on Tuesday to two charges of breaching the Occupational Health and Safety Act by risking its players' health and failing to provide a safe working environment over the supplements program between December 2011 to January 15, 2012 and January 15 to September, 2012.

The Bombers failed to reduce the risk to players by not providing the club doctor with a summary of literature about the supplement that included the scientific and common name, all clinical findings both positive and negative, known or potential side-effects and a statement saying it did not contravene any World Anti-Doping Authority (WADA) guidelines. 

The club doctor failed to make a recommendation about the suitability of the substance for the players and the players were not given a letter of informed consent to sign by the club doctor if they were recommended to use the substance.

The maximum penalty for the offences under section 21 (1) and (2) (a) of the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2004 is a fine of $305,350.

One former player, rookie Hal Hunter, won a recent Supreme Court judgment ordering the AFL to provide him with more documents about the supplements program to help him decide if he should sue the club.

Hunter, 22, a contracted player with the Bombers from December 2011 before being delisted in September 2013, claimed he was worried about his health after being subjected to the supplements program run by Dank.

Hunter claimed he did not know what was exactly in the substances injected into him. The club claimed it did not have any documents from Dank recording Hunter being injected with the substances AOD-9604 or Thymosin Beta-4.

Hunter's lawyers wanted more details on the Powerpoint presentation to the players between February and March 2012 supporting the supplements program and vouched for by the then senior coach James Hird and senior players and attended by Dank and other staff, and where players were assured the program was ASADA and WADA compliant.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport has yet to hand down a decision on the WADA appeal against the AFL anti-doping tribunal's not guilty finding on 34 past and present Essendon players in May.

The hearing continues.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-essendon-pleads-guilty-to-risking-players-health-with-supplements-20151221-glt0l6.html#ixzz3v0OqO0Jt

Edited December 22, 2015 by ManDee
Make it clearer that this is from The Age

[biggestred 4,420]

Ross Ray QC today told the Melbourne Magistrates Court players were instructed to keep the program a secret by club leaders including James Hird "to maintain Essendon's competitive advantage".

 

By the way.... they've plead guilty to this

[Ted Lasso 17,307]

" Keep quiet about the injections so we can maintain a competitive advantage"

if that's not cheating i'm not sure what is.

 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

Come off it. That's not cheating. It's protecting IP. Whether it's IP worth protecting is a good question, though.

[biggestred 4,420]

Think it's more a case of "keep quiet about the injections of substances that we now don't know what they were or have any records of" that makes it very suspicious in terms of cheating.

In fact I'd say people should be in jail for that.

[beelzebub 22,703]

17 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I find it staggering that Fitzpatrick would endorse anything/anyone at EFC over the last 3/4 years.

I don't

[sue 8,592]

12 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Come off it. That's not cheating. It's protecting IP. Whether it's IP worth protecting is a good question, though.

You're correct, in itself it is not cheating. But it is most likely a partial truth - we also don't want others to know because we are using illegal substances.   And if the players knew enough detail to be able to give away the IP, then why don't we know know what that IP was that Hird was so keen to protect?

Of course you'd say that there is no proof (yet) of illegal substances being used. It seems to me that you have bent over so far backwards to show how fair you are, saying nothings proved etc,  that I'm surprised you haven't broken your back.

This is one case where we had a choice of believing it's either a conspiracy or a stuff-up, where I am sure we can discount the usual folk wisdom.  Nothing else makes sense to me.  So no matter what decision CAS comes to, I'll always believe that there was a deliberate plan to cheat.   

[beelzebub 22,703]

"Keep quiet about it "

 

Well..there you have it, an admission of unequivocal guilt.

Why keep quiet about anything unless ......... 

So Essendon knew it was wrong.  The ringleaders Hird etc , all knew it was wrong.   Even when some doubted it they were told to shut up. Shut  up about what ? The players , or some there of obviously knew something was WRONG. There goes " No significant fault " To make it worse the club and the players were complicit in covering it up.

This is all so dodgy it's almost unbelievable.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

21 minutes ago, sue said:

You're correct, in itself it is not cheating. But it is most likely a partial truth - we also don't want others to know because we are using illegal substances.   And if the players knew enough detail to be able to give away the IP, then why don't we know know what that IP was that Hird was so keen to protect?

Of course you'd say that there is no proof (yet) of illegal substances being used. It seems to me that you have bent over so far backwards to show how fair you are, saying nothings proved etc,  that I'm surprised you haven't broken your back.

This is one case where we had a choice of believing it's either a conspiracy or a stuff-up, where I am sure we can discount the usual folk wisdom.  Nothing else makes sense to me.  So no matter what decision CAS comes to, I'll always believe that there was a deliberate plan to cheat.   

True, the back's pretty sore, but it's not about Essendon per se, it's about ensuring a fair process. I'll always advocate for the principle that it's better for a guilty person to be found innocent than an innocent person to be found guilty. Think of me as the Emile Zola of Demonland.

[old dee 23,255]

28 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

True, the back's pretty sore, but it's not about Essendon per se, it's about ensuring a fair process. I'll always advocate for the principle that it's better for a guilty person to be found innocent than an innocent person to be found guilty. Think of me as the Emile Zola of Demonland.

That is a stretch LDC.

[daisycutter 28,722]

29 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

True, the back's pretty sore, but it's not about Essendon per se, it's about ensuring a fair process. I'll always advocate for the principle that it's better for a guilty person to be found innocent than an innocent person to be found guilty. Think of me as the Emile Zola of Demonland.

yeah, right ldc, and stuie is the dreyfus of demonland and bbo is the elagabalus of demonland.....

[ManDee 7,096]

46 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

"Keep quiet about it "

 

Well..there you have it, an admission of unequivocal guilt.

Why keep quiet about anything unless ......... 

So Essendon knew it was wrong.  The ringleaders Hird etc , all knew it was wrong.   Even when some doubted it they were told to shut up. Shut  up about what ? The players , or some there of obviously knew something was WRONG. There goes " No significant fault " To make it worse the club and the players were complicit in covering it up.

This is all so dodgy it's almost unbelievable.

Beeb, although i agree with you on most of the EFC fracas I do not believe it to be an admission of unequivocal guilt.

If you believe that you have IP or some legal advantage over a competitor why would you share it? It is normal practice to keep advantages a secret from competitors. Clubs do not share game plans they are secret.

I think the EFC are guilty as sin but this is not an admission of guilt. In my opinion the secret was about illegal practices but it may apply to legal measures as well.

Edited December 22, 2015 by ManDee
Change a sentence for clarity.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

14 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

yeah, right ldc, and stuie is the dreyfus of demonland and bbo is the elagabalus of demonland.....

And beelzebub is the beelzebub of Demonland, too.

(OK, I over-reached. Mea culpa. Should have gone with Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men)

[CityDee 738]

Just keep quiet and we don't know what they were given is cheating . Why else would they say these things , dank would fill them in on what they had as has been shown anyways on the invoices regarding amino acids black hole of ped's actually received from China etc 

asada has done the research ,

Hal hunters PowerPoint presentation sought out from the court order given will be interesting if not found will a player or parent be willing to give evidence on what was said that night ? Does it contradict the asada evidence , that's when dank will be summoned to give his version . For mine it's a simple answer he will admit to giving the banned thymosin and other ped's that mimic growth hormone . All legal ( he thought) under wada code at the time as that was his job to stay a step ahead .

anyways if players have been lied to bombers will pay large$$$$$$ . 

[sue 8,592]

59 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

True, the back's pretty sore, but it's not about Essendon per se, it's about ensuring a fair process. I'll always advocate for the principle that it's better for a guilty person to be found innocent than an innocent person to be found guilty. Think of me as the Emile Zola of Demonland.

I'm also all for fair process and the presumption of innocence.  But I didn't get to decide what level of proof is needed in WADA/CAS/ASADA cases. So I've made my own  - which is to ask what is the probability that the presumption they are innocent is true.  (Yes, slightly contradictory, but when I add the danger to sport that the 'lost the records' defence presents, I'm prepared to loosen my usual bias in favour of the presumption of innocence.)

Which leads me to think there is a bigger chance that there are fairies in the bottom of my garden than that the club did not set out to cheat. As for the players, I expect there was a range of knowledge/suspicion/complicity/naivety amongst them.

 

 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

9 minutes ago, sue said:

I'm also all for fair process and the presumption of innocence.  But I didn't get to decide what level of proof is needed in WADA/CAS/ASADA cases. So I've made my own  - which is to ask what is the probability that the presumption they are innocent is true.  (Yes, slightly contradictory, but when I add the danger to sport that the 'lost the records' defence presents, I'm prepared to loosen my usual bias in favour of the presumption of innocence.)

Which leads me to think there is a bigger chance that there are fairies in the bottom of my garden than that the club did not set out to cheat. As for the players, I expect there was a range of knowledge/suspicion/complicity/naivety amongst them.

 

 

You're not John Hyatt, are you?

[beelzebub 22,703]

1 hour ago, ManDee said:

Beeb, although i agree with you on most of the EFC fracas I do not believe it to be an admission of unequivocal guilt.

If you believe that you have IP or some legal advantage over a competitor why would you share it? It is normal practice to keep advantages a secret from competitors. Clubs do not share game plans they are secret.

I think the EFC are guilty as sin but this is not an admission of guilt. In my opinion the secret was about illegal practices but it may apply to legal measures as well.

So when Asada is asking you about what you have taken and howand you say Nada because you've been told too !!??

Nothing to do with IP.....that's a crock