5 hours ago, Django said:

This is definitely true. The same can be said about Viney and so many clearance players, because that's the nature of the contest around centre bounces and stoppages. 

But apparently none of this matters AF because you have been deemed a 'pleb'. It's all over.

I think Viney started off like that, but he breaks lines and gets some separation these days, so his clearances tend to be cleaner. Bernie is definitely a better field kick, but doesn't have the leg speed of Viney.

3 hours ago, mo64 said:

What I find perplexing about this entire thread is that posters seem to base their opinion solely on our teams last performance. After a win, Prestia is surplus to our requirements. After a loss, we need more midfield depth, so Prestia is a necessity.

People are also forming an opinion of Prestia's capabilities based solely on this season, after coming of a knee reco. I reckon he's been pretty good considering he's playing in a team that has been a rabble.

We are a middle of the road team, and if a very good player like Prestia expresses interest in playing for us, we should do everything within reason to get him.

Spot on. I've been banging on about building an elite midfield almost every second post lately. Viney, Tyson are close. Petracca and Oliver seem like they'll get there. That's four players. Let's discount Jones and Vince because I don't consider them elite talent and even if I did they won't both be in the middle in 3-4 years time. The premiership sides have closer to 8-10 elite mids and if you want to build for sustained success that's how many you'd need.

So Viney, Tyson, Petracca, Oliver, Prestia, another A grade talent and then hope that Salem and Brayshaw come to the party. I love Gus but I'm not entirely sold on him. He should play off half back next year and Salem should play off half forward. But let's be honest. There are question marks over both players' ability to stay on the park and both have suffered potentially career threatening injuries. So do we need Prestia? Abso-[censored]-lutely!

3 hours ago, mo64 said:

What I find perplexing about this entire thread is that posters seem to base their opinion solely on our teams last performance. After a win, Prestia is surplus to our requirements. After a loss, we need more midfield depth, so Prestia is a necessity.

People are also forming an opinion of Prestia's capabilities based solely on this season, after coming of a knee reco. I reckon he's been pretty good considering he's playing in a team that has been a rabble.

We are a middle of the road team, and if a very good player like Prestia expresses interest in playing for us, we should do everything within reason to get him.

 

Exactly - Prestia would be a different player if Swallow and O'Meara were playing.

7 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

I think Viney started off like that, but he breaks lines and gets some separation these days, so his clearances tend to be cleaner. Bernie is definitely a better field kick, but doesn't have the leg speed of Viney.

Spot on. I've been banging on about building an elite midfield almost every second post lately. Viney, Tyson are close. Petracca and Oliver seem like they'll get there. That's four players. Let's discount Jones and Vince because I don't consider them elite talent and even if I did they won't both be in the middle in 3-4 years time. The premiership sides have closer to 8-10 elite mids and if you want to build for sustained success that's how many you'd need.

So Viney, Tyson, Petracca, Oliver, Prestia, another A grade talent and then hope that Salem and Brayshaw come to the party. I love Gus but I'm not entirely sold on him. He should play off half back next year and Salem should play off half forward. But let's be honest. There are question marks over both players' ability to stay on the park and both have suffered potentially career threatening injuries. So do we need Prestia? Abso-[censored]-lutely!

 I know I keep picking apart your posts, but this is ridiculous and incredibly disrespectful to our captain.

 To say any team has 8 midfielders better than Nathan Jones is absurd.

Every midfielder on your list (on our list) is a clearance player, other than Salem, you might find a different trend if you look at the latest premiership midfields. 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

 I know I keep picking apart your posts, but this is ridiculous and incredibly disrespectful to our captain.

 To say any team has 8 midfielders better than Nathan Jones is absurd.

Every midfielder on your list (on our list) is a clearance player, other than Salem, you might find a different trend if you look at the latest premiership midfields. 

 

 

 

How is his opinion disrespectful ?

I consider elite to be A-grade and Jones is borderline.  I don't have him A-grade, but he's close enough that I wouldn't bother arguing the point. 

But it's certainly not "disrespectful" to consider him a rung below. 

Edited June 17, 20169 yr by ProDee

32 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

I think Viney started off like that, but he breaks lines and gets some separation these days, so his clearances tend to be cleaner. Bernie is definitely a better field kick, but doesn't have the leg speed of Viney.

Spot on. I've been banging on about building an elite midfield almost every second post lately. Viney, Tyson are close. Petracca and Oliver seem like they'll get there. That's four players. Let's discount Jones and Vince because I don't consider them elite talent and even if I did they won't both be in the middle in 3-4 years time. The premiership sides have closer to 8-10 elite mids and if you want to build for sustained success that's how many you'd need.

So Viney, Tyson, Petracca, Oliver, Prestia, another A grade talent and then hope that Salem and Brayshaw come to the party. I love Gus but I'm not entirely sold on him. He should play off half back next year and Salem should play off half forward. But let's be honest. There are question marks over both players' ability to stay on the park and both have suffered potentially career threatening injuries. So do we need Prestia? Abso-[censored]-lutely!

Short memory mate, there were things Brayshaw did last year that absolutely demonstrate how he will become a terrific player for us. Pay no attention to his first 6 months of this year- preseason injury, concussion and a lack of continuity playing have worked against him. Think he will develop into a player very similar to Jobe Watson was at his peak.

12 minutes ago, ProDee said:

How is his opinion disrespectful ?

I consider elite to be A-grade and Jones is borderline.  I don't have him A-grade, but he's close enough that I wouldn't bother arguing the point. 

But it's certainly not "disrespectful" to consider him a rung below. 

Alright, just for a purely hypothetical question.

How would fyfe, dangerfield, pendlebury, priddis or hannebury have performed had they been at Melbourne circa 2010-2015?

I only ask, because in my view, he has carried the midfield year after year with either kids, tagged weekly, jumped on and scrapped or just fighting a tidal wave of opposition midfield domination. I k ow my hypothetical question is an invalid point, but if you don't think Jones is elite, purely from a consistent, durable, performance point of view as a one man midfielder in a terrible team, then I'm sorry but you must be watching a different bloke.

16 minutes ago, ProDee said:

How is his opinion disrespectful ?

I consider elite to be A-grade and Jones is borderline.  I don't have him A-grade, but he's close enough that I wouldn't bother arguing the point. 

But it's certainly not "disrespectful" to consider him a rung below. 

I think his point is that it is disrespectful to say that premiership sides have 8 elite mids each of whom are better than Jones... 

I am struggling to think of a team that has 8 midfielders in the elite category... possibly GWS are getting close with their list, but I don't think the Hawks, Swans or Geelong have that many. 4-5 yes... not 8.

Just now, AdamFarr said:

I think Viney started off like that, but he breaks lines and gets some separation these days, so his clearances tend to be cleaner. Bernie is definitely a better field kick, but doesn't have the leg speed of Viney.

Spot on. I've been banging on about building an elite midfield almost every second post lately. Viney, Tyson are close. Petracca and Oliver seem like they'll get there. That's four players. Let's discount Jones and Vince because I don't consider them elite talent and even if I did they won't both be in the middle in 3-4 years time. The premiership sides have closer to 8-10 elite mids and if you want to build for sustained success that's how many you'd need.

So Viney, Tyson, Petracca, Oliver, Prestia, another A grade talent and then hope that Salem and Brayshaw come to the party. I love Gus but I'm not entirely sold on him. He should play off half back next year and Salem should play off half forward. But let's be honest. There are question marks over both players' ability to stay on the park and both have suffered potentially career threatening injuries. So do we need Prestia? Abso-[censored]-lutely!

Pull the other one Adam.  As Ouch said above you have 4-5 tops with your workhorse and blue collar type players mixed in with that.  No side has 8-10 elite mids - they might have 8-10 elite PLAYERS but they are spread across the ground.

1 minute ago, Generation dee said:

Alright, just for a purely hypothetical question.

How would fyfe, dangerfield, pendlebury, priddis or hannebury have performed had they been at Melbourne circa 2010-2015?

I only ask, because in my view, he has carried the midfield year after year with either kids, tagged weekly, jumped on and scrapped or just fighting a tidal wave of opposition midfield domination. I k ow my hypothetical question is an invalid point, but if you don't think Jones is elite, purely from a consistent, durable, performance point of view as a one man midfielder in a terrible team, then I'm sorry but you must be watching a different bloke.

They wouldn't be as good.  It's bad luck to be at Melbourne during the last 10 years. 

As you say, your point can't ever be proven (one way or another) so is invalid.  That said I'm very comfortable in saying that the majority of the players you named are better players anywhere in any team. 

And no, we're watching the same bloke, we just have a different opinion.  Jones has been a wonderful toiler for the MFC, but it wasn't that long ago I was wanting him to reach the heights of the now retired Brad Sewell.  Thankfully he elevated his game to a quality B+ level.  But for me he doesn't have the class or consistent hurt factor with his disposals to ever be considered elite.  

I also said I wouldn't bother arguing the point about it. 

9 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

I think his point is that it is disrespectful to say that premiership sides have 8 elite mids each of whom are better than Jones... 

I am struggling to think of a team that has 8 midfielders in the elite category... possibly GWS are getting close with their list, but I don't think the Hawks, Swans or Geelong have that many. 4-5 yes... not 8.

Thanks. 

Having another look I think you're right. 

And I agree that no sides have 8-10 elite mids.  It's a silly assertion. 

Edited June 17, 20169 yr by ProDee

1 minute ago, ProDee said:

They wouldn't be as good.  It's bad luck to be at Melbourne during the last 10 years. 

As you say, your point can't ever be proven (one way or another) so is invalid.  That said I'm very comfortable in saying that the majority of the players you named are better players anywhere in any team. 

And no, we're watching the same bloke, we just have a different opinion.  Jones has been a wonderful toiler for the MFC, but it wasn't that long ago I was wanting him to reach the heights of the now retired Brad Sewell.  Thankfully he elevated his game to a quality B+ level.  But for me he doesn't have the class or consistent hurt factor with his disposals to ever be considered elite.  

I also said I wouldn't bother arguing the point about it. 

Settle down, not everything is an argument. You're allowed to have a discussion. 

Just because a bloke doesn't hit lace out passes every kick, doesn't mean he isn't elite. Priddis, swan and Sloane all come to mind. Jones has consistently improved his game every year he has been here. Debatable about this year as he has been playing different roles, but in saying that even versatility csn be seen as an improvement.

Let's look at a couple of clubs that have built dynasties in the recent era.

Geelong’s 2011 premiership midfield:

Joel Selwood, Jimmy Bartel, Travis Varcoe, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Cameron Ling, Joel Corey, Matthew Stokes. 

Sydney’s 2012 premiership midfield:

Lewis Jetta, Kieran Jack, Dan Hannenbery, Ryan O’Keefe, Jarrad McVeigh, Adam Goodes, Josh Kennedy, Jude Bolton and Luke Parker.

Hawthorn’s 2013 premiership midfield:

Shaun Burgoyne, Isaac Smith, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Cyril Rioli, Brad Sewell, Luke Hodge, Bradley Hill, Liam Shiels.

Hawthorn’s 2014 premiership midfield:

Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Will Langford, Bradley Hill, Luke Hodge, Isaac Smith, Liam Shiels, Shaun Burgoyne and Cyril Rioli.

Edited June 17, 20169 yr by AdamFarr

Just now, AdamFarr said:

Let's look at a couple of clubs that have built dynasties in the recent era.

Geelong’s 2011 premiership midfield:

Joel Selwood, Jimmy Bartel, Travis Varcoe, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Cameron Ling, Joel Corey, Matthew Stokes. 

Sydney’s 2012 premiership midfield:

Lewis Jetta, Kieran Jack, Dan Hannenbery, Ryan O’Keefe, Jarrad McVeigh, Adam Goodes, Josh Kennedy, Jude Bolton and Luke Parker.

Hawthorn’s 2013 premiership midfield:

Shaun Burgoyne, Isaac Smith, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Cyril Rioli, Brad Sewell, Luke Hodge, Bradley Hill, Liam Shiels.

Hawthorn’s 2014 premiership midfield:

Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Will Langford, Bradley Hill, Luke Hodge, Isaac Smith, Liam Shiels, Shaun Burgoyne and Cyril Rioli.

You've snookered yourself here.  The only example you've given that comes close to matching your statement is Geelong, and even then you could argue that Varcoe and Stokes were not 'elite' midfielders, as they both didn't spend a whole lot of time there.

Sydney - Jetta and Parker, at that time, were not elite.  

Hawthorn - Brad Hill?  Will Langford?  Cyril?  Since when is Cyril an elite midfielder?  He might be an elite player, but he spends far more time forward of centre than in the midfield.  And Brad Sewell was not 'elite' in 2013, either.

Your idea of 'elite' is skewed.

1 minute ago, AdamFarr said:

Let's look at a couple of clubs that have built dynasty's in the recent era.

Geelong’s 2011 premiership midfield:

Joel Selwood, Jimmy Bartel, Travis Varcoe, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Cameron Ling, Joel Corey, Matthew Stokes. 

Sydney’s 2012 premiership midfield:

Lewis Jetta, Kieran Jack, Dan Hannenbery, Craig Bird, Ryan O’Keefe, Jarrad McVeigh, Adam Goodes, Josh Kennedy, Jude Bolton and Luke Parker.

Hawthorn’s 2013 premiership midfield:

Shaun Burgoyne, Isaac Smith, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Cyril Rioli, Brad Sewell, Luke Hodge, Bradley Hill, Liam Shiels.

Hawthorn’s 2014 premiership midfield:

Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Will Langford, Bradley Hill, Luke Hodge, Isaac Smith, Liam Shiels, Shaun Burgoyne and Cyril Rioli.

Maybe let this one go Ads. None of those lists have 8-10 elite mids, unless the likes of Matthew Sfokes and Brad Sewell were considered elite.

In Tyson, Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw we have four top five picks in our starting midfield. Throw in Viney who would've gone top ten at worst, and it's five. Add in Salem, and it's six top ten picks. That is called being spoiled and more than enough of a foundation.

Players don't have to come from the absolute pointy end of the draft to become a permanent fixture of the midfield. Stretch, Kent, Kennedy, Hunt, Harmes, vandenBerg and Neal-Bullen are all fairly likely types.

Prestia would be a good addition but he's not a must get.

 

8 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

Let's look at a couple of clubs that have built dynasties in the recent era.

Geelong’s 2011 premiership midfield:

Joel Selwood, Jimmy Bartel, Travis Varcoe, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Cameron Ling, Joel Corey, Matthew Stokes. 

Sydney’s 2012 premiership midfield:

Lewis Jetta, Kieran Jack, Dan Hannenbery, Ryan O’Keefe, Jarrad McVeigh, Adam Goodes, Josh Kennedy, Jude Bolton and Luke Parker.

Hawthorn’s 2013 premiership midfield:

Shaun Burgoyne, Isaac Smith, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Cyril Rioli, Brad Sewell, Luke Hodge, Bradley Hill, Liam Shiels.

Hawthorn’s 2014 premiership midfield:

Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Will Langford, Bradley Hill, Luke Hodge, Isaac Smith, Liam Shiels, Shaun Burgoyne and Cyril Rioli.

and I think you are kidding yourself if you think that Jones would not have fit into any of those.

2011, Jones would have been better than Varcoe and Stokes at the very least

2012 O Keefe was a flanker, Parker played as a forward

2013 Shiels and Sewell would have been behind him

2014... Langford ahead of Jones??

... and that is me being very critical, I suspect Jones would have been ahead or at the very least equal to several others you have listed.

16 hours ago, mattjm said:

no offence AdamFarr. but you are a pleb. bernie is a top 3 kick at the club and would be an A grade boot at any club in the league. he has a laser like boot, not up and under at all. he can hack it long in wet or slippery conditions, but that is smart and experience adapting to conditions. it doesn't backfire

Watch a bit closer then, Bernie loves a big up and under kick in all sorts of conditions. He only does it out of packs and congestion but he does do it. As you say though he is also a very good kick, but we only really see that when he has a little time and space. 

I tried. Ah well. Still convinced we need Prestia though. 

39 minutes ago, Generation dee said:

Settle down, not everything is an argument. You're allowed to have a discussion. 

Just because a bloke doesn't hit lace out passes every kick, doesn't mean he isn't elite. Priddis, swan and Sloane all come to mind. Jones has consistently improved his game every year he has been here. Debatable about this year as he has been playing different roles, but in saying that even versatility csn be seen as an improvement.

Settle down ?  I have zero clue what you're talking about.  

I simply disagree with your opinion.  And nor do "lace out passes" have a significant bearing on my view. 

The players you've named have very different traits to Jones and they all have one trait that is elite (and better than Jones).  Jones doesn't have an elite trait (other than heart).

As I said, though, I'm not after a discussion on Jones.

Edited June 17, 20169 yr by ProDee

When the people use elite in draft and stats it's considered the top 10% of the body being assessed. 

 

So so to be an elite midfield you need to be in the top 10% in the league. There's about 720 players in the league so to be an elite player you need to be in the top 72 so mainly the end of year top 50s plus the unlucky players. 

An elite midfielder would be about the top 30 to 35

3 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Settle down ?  I have zero clue to what you're talking about.  

I simply disagree with your opinion.  And nor do "lace out passes" have a significant bearing on my view. 

The players you've named have very different traits to Jones and they all have one trait that is elite (and better than Jones).  Jones doesn't have an elite trait (other than heart).

As I said, though, I'm not after a discussion on Jones.

People get defensive when it comes to how Jones is rated. Myself included. It's understandable as to why. The bloke IS the club.

Out of interest, what is the one trait that separates Sloane from Jones?

where did this 10% definition come from? is it a magical number? do you have numbers for a-grade, b-grade, c-grade etc too?

If Prestia wants to come to us at a reasonable price - that wouldn't for example prevent us from picking up say Hurley, then I'm all for it.

But some arguments here are ludicrous.  When Nathan Jones is our 8th or 9th best mid - build a new premiership cabinet - we'll need it.

2 hours ago, Biffen said:

Vince ,Viney and Jones are a grade, elite , grouse , top notch etc. 

They would walk in to any team.

Even Team Australia? 

7 minutes ago, Wolfmother said:

When the people use elite in draft and stats it's considered the top 10% of the body being assessed. 

 

So so to be an elite midfield you need to be in the top 10% in the league. There's about 720 players in the league so to be an elite player you need to be in the top 72 so mainly the end of year top 50s plus the unlucky players. 

An elite midfielder would be about the top 30 to 35

It's a horseshite term anyway and has only come about because they bored us witless with the terms 'A and B grade mid'. And a number of the players mentioned run through the midfield for very short periods to the point where it's a misnomer to call them mids in the first place. I.e. Brad Hill, Jarrod McVeigh, Matthew Stokes.

Edited June 17, 20169 yr by Return to Glory

8 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Settle down ?  I have zero clue what you're talking about.  

I simply disagree with your opinion.  And nor do "lace out passes" have a significant bearing on my view. 

The players you've named have very different traits to Jones and they all have one trait that is elite (and better than Jones).  Jones doesn't have an elite trait (other than heart).

As I said, though, I'm not after a discussion on Jones.

If you're going to say anything at all about the one consistent shining light of our deplorable team over the past 8 or so years, be prepared for a backlash no matter how much "you're not after a discussion on jones"

While Jones may not have an elite trait, in your eyes, how do you measure durability, ability to extract clearances, get to contest after contest, contend with tagging, perform consistently above average for a midfielder in disposals, tackles contested possessions all while doing so playing high game time with (until recently ) little to no midfield help? You want to talk about elite traits? How does leadership sound? Anyway, you can say what you want. Disagree all you like, Jones is in the top 25 midfielders in the comp and has been for several seasons. 

Prestia coming will simply add more midfield depth to our already growing young stocks, especially as he is closing in on 100 games and has hopefully come through his injury issues.