Our original leadership group for the 2014 was as follows ...

Jones (co-capt)

Grimes (co-capt)

Clark

Trengove

Frawley

Garland

Paul Roos may well have hand picked the above 6 or he would have at least had a big say in proceedings.

2 of the "so-called" leaders couldn't get out the club quickly enough whilst another 2 of the 6 were not exactly leading by example on the field ... and Grimes has just quit the captaincy.

By the way, the above scenario is not an unusual occurrence ... this whole thing reminds me of the draft and how too many show too much faith in a system that doesn't guarantee positive results.

This post is not meant to be a knock on Paul Roos and his choices either ... my knock is on the system that has eventuated over time.

The players choose their leaders, I would be staggered if it was any different 12 months ago.

The captains we have had have been installed but that is not a major concern if you choose from the LG in my experience.

Sometimes, the quality isn't there and we have had a dearth of;

- leaders who have

- experience, that are

- playing consistently, and are

- in good form.

I don't believe everything I'm told - I'd be quite surprised if Roos, Daniher, Bailey & Neeld didn't have some strong input with regards to our captains and those elected to the leadership group.

The major issue I have with the whole process is that there's not enough faith shown in the initial selections - they go to all this trouble and then do an about face if the team doesn't win enough games. We've had 5 different captains in the last 5 years and there have been numerous changes to the leadership groups.

... and if our players are continually picking who goes into our leadership group and who captains* the side then they've failed massively in the last 8 years - maybe a review needs to happen on whether our players deserve that right? (especially when you look at the 6 players they picked to the leadership group last year)

Neitz was our captain in 2007 and 2008 - did he and his leadership group suddenly lose the ability to lead the team to wins? Previously, he and his leadership group had led the club to 5 finals series in 7 years.

In the end, it all comes down to talent - on the field.

*Does that include sacking those captains that they initially appointed or asking them to stand down?

Doesn't sound like the players had too much input on this occasion ... unless the players did decide to sack Green after 1 year.

... Demons’ two captain Jacks the right leadership choice

  Quote

Neeld chose to re-invigorate the club by completely changing the leadership group. This led to the demotion of former captain Brad Green and senior team members Aaron Davey, Jared Rivers and Brent Moloney.

These players were replaced by James Frawley, Colin Garland, Mark Jamar, Nathan Jones, Clint Bartram and the recently transferred Mitch Clark.

  On 06/12/2014 at 03:05, ILLDieADemon said:

Jones as captain and Dunn as vise.

The only reason Dunn gets in as vise ahead of Vince or Dawes is because he has played his entire career at the Dees, it shouldn't be granted to a player who has only been on the list for a couple of seasons.

To fill out the rest of the LG would be

Jones C

Dunn VC

Vince

Dawes

Cross

I wouldnt but Viney in until Coss retires and becomes a development coach just because I can't see Roos letting him in until his fully developed his game.

Dunny dropping the knees into Viney - not leadership material.

Vince and Cross only one year at the club. Really like Dawes. In touch or not always 100% effort. Remember him chasing a back up to the wing and, on the way back, having words with all the MFC players they had run past and who had spectated. Great attitude and willing to have a say.

Sorry for the bump but this thread interested me greatly at the time. I've spent a fair amount of time through work and as a footy coach analyzing this notion of leadership and the dynamic of the leadership group. The prevailing view in this thread is that leadership groups are over-rated. I'd like to ask those who've seen a bit of the Maroochydore camp what they've seen in terms of player-driven standards and displays of 'leadership'. I've got a fairly strong feeling that Roos and Goodwin are pretty big believers in the link between strong leadership and strong culture.Thanks in advance.

Was it the prevailing view?

  On 18/01/2015 at 09:47, rpfc said:

Was it the prevailing view?

I suggested it was. Perhaps not an overwhelmingly prevailing view. But more people questioned the leadership group model as opposed to supporting it. What do you think?

1 captain please, then a vice, then 2-3 others to round out the group.

  On 18/01/2015 at 09:25, Goodvibes said:

Sorry for the bump but this thread interested me greatly at the time. I've spent a fair amount of time through work and as a footy coach analyzing this notion of leadership and the dynamic of the leadership group. The prevailing view in this thread is that leadership groups are over-rated. I'd like to ask those who've seen a bit of the Maroochydore camp what they've seen in terms of player-driven standards and displays of 'leadership'. I've got a fairly strong feeling that Roos and Goodwin are pretty big believers in the link between strong leadership and strong culture.Thanks in advance.

The senior guys seem to be more aware of encouraging the guys coming up through the ranks.

More aware of what areas each other need to work on.

Not a whole lot of finger pointing.

Generally more caring for each other.

More leading through doing rather than telling (except for coaches) That's how I see driving the standards.

Everybody generally more calm & focused.

Coaches setting the tone with all of the above.

  On 18/01/2015 at 09:53, Al said:

1 captain please, then a vice, then 2-3 others to round out the group.

Jones - Captain, Dunn - Vice, Dawes, Cross and Viney round out the 5.

  On 18/01/2015 at 09:51, Goodvibes said:

I suggested it was. Perhaps not an overwhelmingly prevailing view. But more people questioned the leadership group model as opposed to supporting it. What do you think?

Maybe there are many who don't understand how important a good LG is that players can trust and look up to.

Although I think there are many Landers just annoyed at the co-captaincy idea and channelling that through the notion of an LG.

With that said - my own experience of captain is that you can't win without a strong LG, the better we have become, the more superfluous my role has seemed.

Leaders wether footy, any sport or any organisation usually combine the features of Thinking, Caring, Doing that comprises the group.

They are able to support the members of the group usually by identifying/ displaying the trait of the member and adding to any deficiency. Ie supporting the member who is a Doer but not thinker by helping them think through a situation. By helping the person who is thinking about their task but not doing it, by helping the person who is sacrificing what they do by caring too much about what others think.

This is a very simplistic outline of what is a very complex sophisticated and much studied area.

I had a lecturer in Organisational Management who was a senior Member of the Hawthorn coaching team at the time (early nineties) I think his name was John Hook (must look it up)

He outlined the above in what was a stimulating and enjoyable course.

I was always conscious of this simple definition and added a lesson from another mentor which was that leaders always emerged despite who you might think/appoint.

Appointment is often strategic or done to reflect, sometimes not to challenge, presumed attributes.

Great Leaders are also usually flexible able to drift into the key aspect of the above features to strengthen where necessary and achieve visionary outcomes.

Who is it at MFC?. I am not close enough to identify and would have to overcome my own prejudices and lack of knowledge of the players and the organisation. I am hoping that Roos with his own time frame and wanting to leave a legacy with Jackson who has shown great organisational ability will be able to identify and put in place a structure that helps our team leaders emerge. I think they can.

  On 19/01/2015 at 01:08, dpositive said:

Leaders wether footy, any sport or any organisation usually combine the features of Thinking, Caring, Doing that comprises the group.

They are able to support the members of the group usually by identifying/ displaying the trait of the member and adding to any deficiency. Ie supporting the member who is a Doer but not thinker by helping them think through a situation. By helping the person who is thinking about their task but not doing it, by helping the person who is sacrificing what they do by caring too much about what others think.

This is a very simplistic outline of what is a very complex sophisticated and much studied area.

I had a lecturer in Organisational Management who was a senior Member of the Hawthorn coaching team at the time (early nineties) I think his name was John Hook (must look it up)

He outlined the above in what was a stimulating and enjoyable course.

I was always conscious of this simple definition and added a lesson from another mentor which was that leaders always emerged despite who you might think/appoint.

Appointment is often strategic or done to reflect, sometimes not to challenge, presumed attributes.

Great Leaders are also usually flexible able to drift into the key aspect of the above features to strengthen where necessary and achieve visionary outcomes.

Who is it at MFC?. I am not close enough to identify and would have to overcome my own prejudices and lack of knowledge of the players and the organisation. I am hoping that Roos with his own time frame and wanting to leave a legacy with Jackson who has shown great organisational ability will be able to identify and put in place a structure that helps our team leaders emerge. I think they can.

It would have been John Hook, a longtime Hawk.

  On 19/01/2015 at 02:34, rjay said:

It would have been John Hook, a longtime Hawk.

I think it was a quick google reference did point out a history of management and football but did not identify any part time lecturing at Phillip Institute but I reckon from my recollection of his stories thats who it is. He was a fantastic lecturer and we all got through with an improved understanding of management.

  On 18/01/2015 at 20:19, rpfc said:

Maybe there are many who don't understand how important a good LG is that players can trust and look up to.

Although I think there are many Landers just annoyed at the co-captaincy idea and channelling that through the notion of an LG.

With that said - my own experience of captain is that you can't win without a strong LG, the better we have become, the more superfluous my role has seemed.

Rpfc, I'm interested to know what your top performance drivers are for a Captain and/or LG. I understand that there is on and off-field stuff to deal with but given your current responsibility as a Skip, what do you focus on?

I find it rather baffling that most have not got Grimes in the leadership group, the respect he has amongst the other players is probably second only to Jones

My group

Jones - Grimes, Dawes, Cross, Dunn and as a smokey Nev Jetta

As for leadership, managers and captains.......a captain of a sporting team is completely different from a leader or manager anywhere else, in my long working history both civil and military I have met thousands of so called managers, only 2 real leaders, and 2 real captains (and I include Jones in that)

  On 19/01/2015 at 04:03, The Devil Inside said:

I find it rather baffling that most have not got Grimes in the leadership group, the respect he has amongst the other players is probably second only to Jones

My group

Jones - Grimes, Dawes, Cross, Dunn and as a smokey Nev Jetta

I would also be surprised if Grimes wasn't in the leadership group. Tommy Mc may also be a smokey but I expect some of the younger players like him, Tyson and Viney to step up in the next few years.

  On 19/01/2015 at 04:18, rjay said:

I would also be surprised if Grimes wasn't in the leadership group. Tommy Mc may also be a smokey but I expect some of the younger players like him, Tyson and Viney to step up in the next few years.

IMO to be in the LG you would need to be a player who you expect to play all games went fit.

Can Grimes guarantee that in 2015?

Based on his form over the last two years that would be doubtful.

  On 19/01/2015 at 04:25, old dee said:

IMO to be in the LG you would need to be a player who you expect to play all games went fit.

Can Grimes guarantee that in 2015?

Based on his form over the last two years that would be doubtful.

I'm thinking he will go back to developing his game and settle a position in the best 22. He has been and will remain a leader at the club who unfortunately was given a huge weight to carry by the previous chiefs...

  On 19/01/2015 at 03:57, McQueen said:

Rpfc, I'm interested to know what your top performance drivers are for a Captain and/or LG. I understand that there is on and off-field stuff to deal with but given your current responsibility as a Skip, what do you focus on?

Less and less to focus on over the years with leaders seemingly on every line lately... One huge thing I learnt in my first final was to never forget about focussing on your own performance. Once I was comfortable with that - I would make sure of little things like new players knowing roles and players in new positions being comfortable - the stuff people overlook because they are worried about themselves (the players) or tactics and the other team (the coaches).

Off field is different at my level because I know that I will have players who are hungover, possibly still high, and tired from shift working. So you have to roll with the punches there, we come down hard and the next week we have 10 people less than we did and 30 [censored] off blokes still at training. The 10 blokes that want to see you crack down on that kind of thing are the ones that have to acquiesce... That stuff is frustrating but no-one does these things to hurt the team or their teammates or themselves - they're just idiots, and I am fine with idiots - they help the team, they help you get people to training, they help you win...as long as you don't have too many.

But the thing that won us our GF in 2014 was an abundance of leaders in the backline and a midfield that was fearless in the first quarter - a few people you aren't sure about reveal themselves in finals I find. Sport doesn't build character, but it sure as hell reveals it. And fortunately for us, we had great character in every line and in every leader.

Jones - Grimes, Dawes, Dunn, Garland is the core. We are building a culture and others will need smash there way into it rather than be gifted a spot. Respect may be gifted a little to some of these blokes but from where we have come from I'm happy with this core.

The next wave of leaders that could break into the group are Viney, Tyson, Jetta and Gawn.

  On 19/01/2015 at 04:03, The Devil Inside said:

I find it rather baffling that most have not got Grimes in the leadership group, the respect he has amongst the other players is probably second only to Jones

I think those who have marked Grimes down haven't considered what the players' view would be, although that is the biggest factor in selecting the LG.

  On 19/01/2015 at 05:39, Elusive Tunbridge said:

I think those who have marked Grimes down haven't considered what the players' view would be, although that is the biggest factor in selecting the LG.

I hope I am wrong ET but I don't think he is above average in ability.

It would make it hard to inspire others if you are putting in ordinary games