One game, not games. They're not highlights.

Did you watch the one where as a 16 year old he kicked 5 against WA at last year's u-18 championships?

Either way I find it ridiculous and naive to judge purely off a 3 minute video clip.

Cal Twomey who is the foremost judge along with Emma Quayle of all things draft has McCartin at 2 in his recent rankings. Lever at 12.

Paige Cardrona who is also excellent also has McCartin at 2, with Lever at 6.

Not saying these experts are spot on every time but they know a hell of a lot more than us from going to a lot of games and seeing them in the flesh and talking to recruiters and clubs.

Its interesting - I agree with what you are saying but then I throw Roos "they are too young and its a lottery " into the mix and I am not sure we shouldn't move away from groupthink.

Our recruiters get lambasted over Toumpas but these experts had Toumpas as a top 3 pick and wines at 5 plus. Our recruiters get lambasted over Dustin Martin when Scully/Trengove where clearly rated one and two by all the experts. Then we have gone too early on Cook, Gysberts, Strauss and got burned.

The only certainty is the Roos quote "its a lottery"

Its interesting - I agree with what you are saying but then I throw Roos "they are too young and its a lottery " into the mix and I am not sure we shouldn't move away from groupthink.

Our recruiters get lambasted over Toumpas but these experts had Toumpas as a top 3 pick and wines at 5 plus. Our recruiters get lambasted over Dustin Martin when Scully/Trengove where clearly rated one and two by all the experts. Then we have gone too early on Cook, Gysberts, Strauss and got burned.

The only certainty is the Roos quote "its a lottery"

That's exactly right mate. Prendergast gets a lot of stick here and rightfully so as the likes of Cook, Gysberts, Blease, Strauss and Tapscott were top 20 picks that he butchered when nobody had them going that high.

But Scully, JT and Watts went exactly where everyone else had them. A couple said Nic Nat over Watts but most went for JW. Which points to development being even more of a problem than recruiting (which is saying something!)

I think we've got glaring holes key forward and in midfield so it's hard to know what requires more urgency in fixing!

Jake Lovett who is coming through as a Father/Son next year is meant to be a gem - possible top 5 according to both Cal Twomey and Paige Cadrona - although it seems like the AFL in their infinite wisdom will be changing the system next year so we won't get him for a steal like we did with Viney and to a lesser extent Stretch.

There are also a big number of midfielders out of contract next year we can throw big coin at (Cameron is too though).

I also wonder about the go-home factor with Hogan long-term so would be great to have a Vic key position forward who'd (hopefully) be unlikely to leave for a while at least in McCartin.

Would be fun to have Hogan, Wright and McCartin in the forward line...it would keep the pigeon that safely grazes in our goal square on its toes

That's exactly right mate. Prendergast gets a lot of stick here and rightfully so as the likes of Cook, Gysberts, Blease, Strauss and Tapscott were top 20 picks that he butchered when nobody had them going that high.

But Scully, JT and Watts went exactly where everyone else had them. A couple said Nic Nat over Watts but most went for JW. Which points to development being even more of a problem than recruiting (which is saying something!)

I think we've got glaring holes key forward and in midfield so it's hard to know what requires more urgency in fixing!

Jake Lovett who is coming through as a Father/Son next year is meant to be a gem - possible top 5 according to both Cal Twomey and Paige Cadrona - although it seems like the AFL in their infinite wisdom will be changing the system next year so we won't get him for a steal like we did with Viney and to a lesser extent Stretch.

There are also a big number of midfielders out of contract next year we can throw big coin at (Cameron is too though).

I also wonder about the go-home factor with Hogan long-term so would be great to have a Vic key position forward who'd (hopefully) be unlikely to leave for a while at least in McCartin.

They have not once mentioned that Lovett is a top 5 potential..

Unless you have the proof I highly doubt they mentioned that.

They have not once mentioned that Lovett is a top 5 potential..

Unless you have the proof I highly doubt they mentioned that.

Highly doubt all you want pal, I couldn't care less!

They both replied to my direct questions about him on twitter. While both said it's early days, Paige said top 5, Twomey top 10.

McCartin is our man.

I've been looking at the phantom drafts for 2013 and 2014. It seems both Jesse Hogan and P-Mac have the same "player comparison", a guy by the name of…Jonathan Brown.

2 of them in the same forward line?

Wouldn't be surprised at all if its Lever. Goods played as a rebounding defender as a kid, is 194 and could play in almost any position as required by the team. Maybe Roos and co either see a similarity in either the person or role flexibility that he could offer.

But that was exactly what I was saying in my previous post DL, you're making judgment from snippets and from a two minute video and then saying that it's a no from you. Doesn't that strike you as absolutely ridiculous?

What about those in the know who watch these kids every week that say McCartin is the far better player?

I understand you thinking that we need mids more than we need a key forward, that's your opinion and there's certainly merit in that.

But wouldn't you think it pertinent to do a bit more research before making your judgment on these players, or failing that, trusting the experts who have done theirs - NOT ONE of whom has Lever going ahead of McCartin?

no not at all, he looks like a big kid playing with little fellas, & I haven't seen anything that yells to me that he's ready to come straight into senior AFL as a key forward. He may turn into a star? may not as well.

IF he was like Hogan, I'd say Yes. but I don't see that command to say he's an Elite power player

Besides that's not what I'm talking about. We need to get our Mids up to elite level, & it doesn't matter if we have 22 of them on our list; as long as some of them turn out to be genuine class 'A' graders.

We can't stop recruiting them because we have 12 already on the list, or however many we have.. If they present for our picks & we are poor in that area, we have to take them.

We don't need to follow what the paper experts say. they're reflecting on what the players do in U-18's, & try to project how they will go in AFL. We all do that.

The Dees are in a slightly different position, than just adding talent alone; We need to truly change the culture in an ongoing way, so adding the wrong types may just be going thru the same hoops that we've done before.

We need genuine leader types, who really want to (not get onto an AFL list, but to truly improve the list & culture, & who carry the ability to do so)... so I want players who've already shown the desire to run hard both ways, & willing to mix it in all contests, to do more than they're share to get over the line. not rest on their talent laurels to get them thru, without the Elite effort requirements.

Edited October 20, 201410 yr by dee-luded

Its interesting - I agree with what you are saying but then I throw Roos "they are too young and its a lottery " into the mix and I am not sure we shouldn't move away from groupthink.

Our recruiters get lambasted over Toumpas but these experts had Toumpas as a top 3 pick and wines at 5 plus. Our recruiters get lambasted over Dustin Martin when Scully/Trengove where clearly rated one and two by all the experts. Then we have gone too early on Cook, Gysberts, Strauss and got burned.

The only certainty is the Roos quote "its a lottery"

I never truly was excited by scully other than his manic busy style. I followed the group-think at that time believing I must just not see it, & I'm missing IT... but I didn't miss IT. I was right all along. I should have trusted myself more back than. Intuition is pretty powerful.

I always wanted Trenners & I would have taken him @ 1 anyway... lucky we didn't as Scully compo was better. Trenners is unlucky with his injuries but I can see he would be an 'A' grader if he was able to get fit.

my intuition likes what I see of Lever.

we also lack real class pace with our list, I don't rate Garlett up-field at this point & see him a s a fill in. IMO his trade price may also reflect my impressions.

For this reason I'm interested in Pickett, who suits playing all over the ground as a small.

I think getting players like Pickett helps us get beyond relying on the likes of Bail & Mjones, Evans etc.

Just because we have recruited some new mids, doesn't mean we have it covered, far short of it IMO.

we have quite a few players who can play through the midfield they may not be A graders but they can play there, we have the backline covered with sufficient talent should injuries hit there, but we do not have sufficient number of forwards to start with much less if injuries hit. I believe we need to take another forward as well as a mid with our first two picks, we can top up on more B grade mids with later picks and possibly the PSD. But more forwards are critical in giving us targets and getting a decent score on the board.

Peter Wright looks ready to go.

His highlights reel is the best of this lot.

Next is Levers.

Wright seems like a giant compared to the rest .

Could team up with the Hulk.

Peter Wright looks ready to go.

His highlights reel is the best of this lot.

Next is Levers.

Wright seems like a giant compared to the rest .

Could team up with the Hulk.

I am glad that somebody agrees with me on this. Admittedly his reel showed him playing in a lower comp (smaller bodies) but he absolutely dominated in leading and pack marks. What it did show however and which translates directly to AFL is his elite kicking skills from a range of angles and beyond 50 metres. He could prove the bargain KPF of the draft and create headaches for opposition when combined with Hogan and Dawes. (Plus he is a lot cheaper than Boyd whilst much the same size.)

we have quite a few players who can play through the midfield they may not be A graders but they can play there, we have the backline covered with sufficient talent should injuries hit there, but we do not have sufficient number of forwards to start with much less if injuries hit. I believe we need to take another forward as well as a mid with our first two picks, we can top up on more B grade mids with later picks and possibly the PSD. But more forwards are critical in giving us targets and getting a decent score on the board.

the backline is bare.

tommy mac has to improve a lot especially his kicking

garland has plateaued

jetta is just arriving

we need topline flankers & another tall, & a swingman.

the midfield Is the weakest of our areas. & must be the strongest. we've taken some steps the aid it last season, but that won't last without adding more talent into that mix. Lamumba can play wing or halfback.

We have to improve outa-sight, from the backline bringing the ball upfield thru the middle.

the backline is bare.

tommy mac has to improve a lot especially his kicking

garland has plateaued

jetta is just arriving

we need topline flankers & another tall, & a swingman.

the midfield Is the weakest of our areas. & must be the strongest. we've taken some steps the aid it last season, but that won't last without adding more talent into that mix. Lamumba can play wing or halfback.

We have to improve outa-sight, from the backline bringing the ball upfield thru the middle.

What about Dunn?

Can i ask what it is about wright and lever that you guys like so much?

Roos said he doesnt like drafting super talls and Wright is about as agro as watts.

Lever apparentlh oozes leadership and i know our guys rate him but his footage all has him out in space kicking well but in uncontested scenarios.

I like Laverde but surely we go with best available on talent and leadership maximum be rfig versus minimum risk.

top 3 still very much Petracca, brayshaw and mcmartin with laverde the smoky.

Peter Wright looks ready to go.

His highlights reel is the best of this lot.

Next is Levers.

Wright seems like a giant compared to the rest .

Could team up with the Hulk.

I am glad that somebody agrees with me on this. Admittedly his reel showed him playing in a lower comp (smaller bodies) but he absolutely dominated in leading and pack marks. What it did show however and which translates directly to AFL is his elite kicking skills from a range of angles and beyond 50 metres. He could prove the bargain KPF of the draft and create headaches for opposition when combined with Hogan and Dawes. (Plus he is a lot cheaper than Boyd whilst much the same size.)

Can't get a kick in a stampede. Lovely kick of the ball when he gets it but that's not very often and as 'Chaser' says struggles in the big games.

Roos won't take him, not because of the talls argument but because he doesn't have the aggression. According to Kinnear Beatson the first question Roos asks about a kid is if he is competitive and hard at the contest.

Edited October 20, 201410 yr by rjay

What about Dunn?

yes your right, dunn good of late, jetta arriving, a plateaued garland, a semi skilled TMac

so we have Lumumba 28, dunn 28, garland 27, grimes 26, terlich 25, georgiou 25, jetta, howe, TMac,

yes your right, dunn good of late, jetta arriving, a plateaued garland, a semi skilled TMac

so we have Lumumba 28, dunn 28, garland 27, grimes 26, terlich 25, georgiou 25, jetta, howe, TMac,

And Sam Frost

I actually think our defence is strong.. We sorely needed drive out of the backline, which HL will provide. Apart from that, I think they held up pretty well.

And Sam Frost

& salem???

I'm talking about those who are already recognised as senior afl players, Frost hasn't even been seen in our jumper as yet, let alone added to his games tally with the red & blue.

I hope frosty will add something but atmo we need mids, & particularly mids who can play the role off half back or the tall full backline. to add cover to Garland & TMac.

Forgive me if I don't hold a lot of faith in terlich 25, & georgiou 25.

so getting a big back who can play Mids is a no brainer for moi.

Still can't begin to fathom how people believe it's 'more risky' to take a KPF over an 18 year-old kid who's already had a knee reconstruction and hasn't played for 12 months.

God I hope we don't pick Lever. Disaster waiting to happen. I've voted Wright from the beginning, but happy to just take the consensus top-3 talent that is Patty McCartin.

Please don't stuff this one up Melbourne.

Edited October 20, 201410 yr by Guest

Lever is apparently 192-194. Played mainly as a key back, but been training as a midfielder.

Goddard is 191 and Goodes 194.

This is the type of swingman we need, able to run off halfback or hold down a KPP, run through the middle all at various stages of the game. (incredibly hard to match up on) I'm not as worried about X factor, we just need hungry competitive footballers who can stick at a task. His knee is a worry, but so is diabetes.

Edited October 20, 201410 yr by grazman

options are:

1. if Saints go for McCartin, we grab Petracca at #2 & Brayshaw at #3.

or

2. if Saints go for Petracca, we have some choices. Its Brayshaw at #2, then either Wright, McCartin or Lever. Any of these 3 will be good.

Its interesting - I agree with what you are saying but then I throw Roos "they are too young and its a lottery " into the mix and I am not sure we shouldn't move away from groupthink.

Our recruiters get lambasted over Toumpas but these experts had Toumpas as a top 3 pick and wines at 5 plus. Our recruiters get lambasted over Dustin Martin when Scully/Trengove where clearly rated one and two by all the experts. Then we have gone too early on Cook, Gysberts, Strauss and got burned.

The only certainty is the Roos quote "its a lottery"

lesson here....The "experts" are actually seldom on the money. They often craftily rewrite a little bit of history here and there to justify where the world differed from their expectations.

I still expect the club to something "different" and to do it to suit US, not anyone else or their thinkings.

Cast aside the scrawny ones who's going to be able to help us and be strong bodies with enormous appetite for the game.

So if we think in terns of the players we have that ought to either solidify their games or step it up and form a framework of a decent midfield what do we require to bolster this, compliment it, not replace it.

and it'll all probably revolve around who actually goes at 1

lesson here....The "experts" are actually seldom on the money. They often craftily rewrite a little bit of history here and there to justify where the world differed from their expectations.

What I have learned is the experts are pretty close to correct on estimating at what pick a player WILL be selected.

What they get wrong with alarming regularity is at what pick a player SHOULD be selected.