Terry Wallace's list analysis - 2014 edition

[whatwhat say what 22,965]

Questions to be answered:

How much improvement did they make in 2014?

How much further can it be in 2015?

Will restructure change the fortunes of the club?

Where are they at?

Brought in midfielders in 2014. Bolstered ability around the ball. Cross and Vince short-term fixes, Vince will last longer. Future of club revolves around Dom Tyson (great pick up), Viney, Salem, and Hogan – but there’s a lot of pressure on that kid as a youngster who has yet to play a game. Either need to trade picks or select young talent (Brayshaw important).

Team structure?
Frost helps spine for future – McDonald and Frost down back, Tyson in the middle, Hogan forward. Lumumba and Garlett will add depth; latter is the ‘right’ age. Need the young rucks to take control with Jamar 31 years old, Spencer 25, Fitzpatrick and Gawn 23 – but are they the right age to be big competitors.

Greatest need?

Midfield depth, either pick Brayshaw or trade those early picks. Frost will help, or Lever in the draft in terms of backline depth. Potentially in a reasonable position.

Losses / gains

Trengove not leaving, Lumumba and Garlett as per above, Frost likely. Frawley deal an absolute bonus – need to now take advantage of having those two early picks.

Make / hold / lose ground

Haven’t seen enough to back them in. Thinks they’ll hold until he sees their team dynamic change – didn’t see enough development in 2014, particularly going backwards in the second half of the year. Got a few young players who could step up to the next level. Need to see the proof in the pudding.

Further comments

Weaselface Barrett says that we’re still sniffing around Dangerfield. GWS are improving in comparison with the players they’re bringing (two multiple best and fairest winners) in to improve themselves immediately; we’re not. Wallace says that Roos has had a look at blokes, judged them in 2014, and will need to settle the side down in 2015. Who’re the young blokes coming through? Which seniors will still be around the mark? Neither Barrett or Suntan can see how we can go past GWS as they have the best young talent (I agree) – for every three, four or five young talent Melbourne has, GWS has 15, 18, 20 potentially young stars. Barrett says that Lumumba and Garlett have strings attached. What that means I have no idea, I presume he means that they have question marks over what they bring to the club in terms of character and likely football impact.

Wallace thinks Toumpas is a battler as he can’t find the ball, but is still a young player – Barrett intimating that he’s another high draft pick wasted. Suntan said at the underage level he looked a very good young player, but some players step up against men and others are more suited to playing against boys. Suntan says that there’s no way we would’ve selected Toumpas over Wines if Roos had been in charge at the time as he wants bulls who can get the football. “Yet another negative legacy of the previous regime”, says Barrett.

Suntan thinks Salem is a very exciting young talent, just needs development.

Calls to follow.

[Cards13 9,117]

Shouldn't this be dropped straight in the bin. F wallet.

[Still Waiting 94]

Toumpas, at this point, is very tradeable IMO. Shame we could not get Wines in with Viney. What a long term duo that would have made.

[Mydee 288]

Toumpas, at this point, is very tradeable IMO. Shame we could not get Wines in with Viney. What a long term duo that would have made.

Emselle and Townsand?

[What 18,810]

Suntan says that there’s no way we would’ve selected Toumpas over Wines if Roos had been in charge at the time as he wants bulls who can get the football. “Yet another negative legacy of the previous regime”, says Barrett.

Sad but so true

[Qwerty30 196]

Shouldn't this be dropped straight in the bin. F wallet.

Why?

I think the analysis is quite sensible and realistic.

While i dont rate Wallace as a Coach, I dont see why he should be derided given his football experience. FWIW, I would back Wallet 's insight over most on D'Land.

Toumpas, at this point, is very tradeable IMO. Shame we could not get Wines in with Viney. What a long term duo that would have made.

At this stage, Toumpas is a wasted pick with very little trade value.

[Qwerty30 196]

“Yet another negative legacy of the previous regime”, says Barrett.

Sad but so true

Does that include Todd Viney?

[Earl Hood 6,101]

Does that include Todd Viney?

Yes. He made the choice despite his intimate knowledge of just what Wines would bring to club. I find that hard to fathom.

[Qwerty30 196]

Yes. He made the choice despite his intimate knowledge of just what Wines would bring to club. I find that hard to fathom.

In this case it makes the reference to previous regime rather inaccurate.

I would love to know the backroom machinations that made us take Toumpas over Wines given what we probably knew on Wines (Well at least Viney Snr knew)

[Earl Hood 6,101]

In this case it makes the reference to previous regime rather inaccurate.

I would love to know the backroom machinations that made us take Toumpas over Wines given what we probably knew on Wines (Well at least Viney Snr knew)

I think it was the Ox who said the thinking was that because we had secured Jack Viney as an inside "raging bull" mid we did not need Wines but rather we needed an outside runner with good kicking skills. Classic case of drafting for needs vs best available. But they may have thought Toump was the best. Who knows but I just don't see that the Toump has any weapons but he could develop into a handy player. Wines on the other hand has it in spades, size, strength, agression, gets the ball and kicks goals and he has done that since game 1.

[nutbean 8,838]

I think it was the Ox who said the thinking was that because we had secured Jack Viney as an inside "raging bull" mid we did not need Wines but rather we needed an outside runner with good kicking skills. Classic case of drafting for needs vs best available. But they may have thought Toump was the best. Who knows but I just don't see that the Toump has any weapons but he could develop into a handy player. Wines on the other hand has it in spades, size, strength, agression, gets the ball and kicks goals and he has done that since game 1.

Happy to say that it was an mistake to take Toumpas over Wines but please don't rewrite history. Drafting needs over best available ??? Do the research and every publication had Toumpas going in the draft BEFORE Wines. Pre kicking a ball in anger Toumpas was considered a better prospect than Wines. Just hasn't turned out that way.

This constant moaning on Wines vs Toumpas is wearying.

I am so glad we traded out pick 2 last year or we would have a host of posters bemoaning taking Kelly over Bontempelli.

Go back over every draft and you will notice that draft order has never ever been correct. If you were looking at past drafts number one picks would be ( IMO and obviously subjective)

2013 - Bontempelli

2012 - Wines

2011 - pretty close between Coniglio, Dom Tyson (yay), Greene, wingard

2010 - probably Heppell

2009 - We talk about Scully and Trengove but look how everyone missed out on Fyfe at 20. Gunston at 29 !!

It doesn't matter if you agree with who I have suggested as pick one or not - the evidence is that if you do retrospective draft analysis and you will see that EVERYONE has pretty much got the draft order wrong.

[Nasher 33,617]

The only reason everyone was in such a flap about Wines was because nobody paid any attention to Toumpas at all, because everyone assumed he'd be gone by our pick. All the discussion at the time was around Wines vs O'Rourke.

I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that maybe Todd just thought Toumpas was a better player, like every other commentator in the business, professional or amateur.

[nutbean 8,838]

The only reason everyone was in such a flap about Wines was because nobody paid any attention to Toumpas at all, because everyone assumed he'd be gone by our pick. All the discussion at the time was around Wines vs O'Rourke.

I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that maybe Todd just thought Toumpas was a better player, like every other commentator in the business, professional or amateur.

because most are looking in the rear vision mirror and justifying it by rewriting history.

[Go the Biff 3,448]

The only reason everyone was in such a flap about Wines was because nobody paid any attention to Toumpas at all, because everyone assumed he'd be gone by our pick. All the discussion at the time was around Wines vs O'Rourke.

I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that maybe Todd just thought Toumpas was a better player, like every other commentator in the business, professional or amateur.

Your head v brick wall Nasher

[watchtheeyes 1,422]

I still can't believe that people are so downbeat on Toumpas. Said it plenty, but I reckon he's showed some great decision making and skills in several games. His game against Richmond this year was class as well as picking up about 10 possessions in a single quarter. Give the lad some time for Petes sake.

[Earl Hood 6,101]

Happy to say that it was an mistake to take Toumpas over Wines but please don't rewrite history. Drafting needs over best available ??? Do the research and every publication had Toumpas going in the draft BEFORE Wines. Pre kicking a ball in anger Toumpas was considered a better prospect than Wines. Just hasn't turned out that way.

This constant moaning on Wines vs Toumpas is wearying.

I am so glad we traded out pick 2 last year or we would have a host of posters bemoaning taking Kelly over Bontempelli.

Go back over every draft and you will notice that draft order has never ever been correct. If you were looking at past drafts number one picks would be ( IMO and obviously subjective)

2013 - Bontempelli

2012 - Wines

2011 - pretty close between Coniglio, Dom Tyson (yay), Greene, wingard

2010 - probably Heppell

2009 - We talk about Scully and Trengove but look how everyone missed out on Fyfe at 20. Gunston at 29 !!

It doesn't matter if you agree with who I have suggested as pick one or not - the evidence is that if you do retrospective draft analysis and you will see that EVERYONE has pretty much got the draft order wrong.

NB you are correct I have been saying for a while the draft is a lottery and is not the equalisation tool the AFL claims it to be

What I was trying to say (rather poorly) was that although the general consensus was that Toumpas was ahead of Wines, T Viney was in a rather unique position to know the capabilities of Wines as he's grown up in their house and he also knew Toumpas quite well. The Ox said on SEN MFC made the choice based on the need to fill an outside running role as we already had the inside mid role covered with JV. So did Viney judge Toumpas to be a better player than Wines or did he let list management/balance issues sway his thinking and he assumed either kid would be a gun so went past Wines?

Why ever it happened, MFC still has a way to go before I will have my faith restored that we can spot good young talent in the draft as well as the successful clubs do it.

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

NB you are correct I have been saying for a while the draft is a lottery and is not the equalisation tool the AFL claims it to be

What I was trying to say (rather poorly) was that although the general consensus was that Toumpas was ahead of Wines, T Viney was in a rather unique position to know the capabilities of Wines as he's grown up in their house and he also knew Toumpas quite well. The Ox said on SEN MFC made the choice based on the need to fill an outside running role as we already had the inside mid role covered with JV. So did Viney judge Toumpas to be a better player than Wines or did he let list management/balance issues sway his thinking and he assumed either kid would be a gun so went past Wines?

Why ever it happened, MFC still has a way to go before I will have my faith restored that we can spot good young talent in the draft as well as the successful clubs do it.

NB you are correct I have been saying for a while the draft is a lottery and is not the equalisation tool the AFL claims it to be

What I was trying to say (rather poorly) was that although the general consensus was that Toumpas was ahead of Wines, T Viney was in a rather unique position to know the capabilities of Wines as he's grown up in their house and he also knew Toumpas quite well. The Ox said on SEN MFC made the choice based on the need to fill an outside running role as we already had the inside mid role covered with JV. So did Viney judge Toumpas to be a better player than Wines or did he let list management/balance issues sway his thinking and he assumed either kid would be a gun so went past Wines?

Why ever it happened, MFC still has a way to go before I will have my faith restored that we can spot good young talent in the draft as well as the successful clubs do it.

I have always thought the draft is a lottery hence the stupidity of rating the extra draft pick a above culture (Tanking)

If we get one of the 2 and 3 picks right I will be very happy

[Melbman2 226]

Yes. He made the choice despite his intimate knowledge of just what Wines would bring to club. I find that hard to fathom.

The only reason everyone was in such a flap about Wines was because nobody paid any attention to Toumpas at all, because everyone assumed he'd be gone by our pick. All the discussion at the time was around Wines vs O'Rourke.

I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that maybe Todd just thought Toumpas was a better player, like every other commentator in the business, professional or amateur.

I'm forever curious about the inner workings of the club and I thought I'd heard about a Neeld V Viney stoush around draft time. Do we know that it was Viney's call on the Toump or is it an assumption?

Am just curious.

[Travis Boots 157]

I'm still positive that Toumpas will come good for us. His breakout year might even end up being in 2016 rather than next year. Give him time. He has the skill, he will start finding the ball and his confidence will grow.

Are the Toumpas critics also criticizing Salem who barely got a touch in the 2nd half of the year?

Edited October 17, 2014 by Sweet Puff

[buck_nekkid 6,047]

Wines: exceptional early. (Viney pretty good also!)

In most clubs, kids develop in the 2s until they are ready.

At MFC, we pin our hopes on them and throw them to the wolves.

Let's give them a couple of years development, and then have this discussion. The Toump may be a great long term prospect.

[rjay 25,157]

I'm forever curious about the inner workings of the club and I thought I'd heard about a Neeld V Viney stoush around draft time. Do we know that it was Viney's call on the Toump or is it an assumption?

Am just curious.

On here, could well be a Demonland myth.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

I'm still positive that Toumpas will come good for us. His breakout year might even end up being in 2016 rather than next year. Give him time. He has the skill, he will start finding the ball and his confidence will grow.

Are the Toumpas critics also criticizing Salem who barely got a touch in the 2nd half of the year?

No comparison.

Salem MILES ahead.

Kid is composed, classy and well balanced.

Toumpas is rushed, awkward and scared.

Salem is hard as nails, Toumpas is soft as butter.

Polar opposites these 2, the only thing they have in common is they both have sublime skills.

[samcantstandya 1,061]

I still can't believe that people are so downbeat on Toumpas. Said it plenty, but I reckon he's showed some great decision making and skills in several games. His game against Richmond this year was class as well as picking up about 10 possessions in a single quarter. Give the lad some time for Petes sake.

I reckon Toumpas will be a gun he could be like Thompson who came good after 3 seasons & then left 4 Adelaide. Jimmy has the skill set all he needs is a decent string of games. He will be seriously good.

[Qwerty30 196]

I have always thought the draft is a lottery hence the stupidity of rating the extra draft pick a above culture (Tanking)

If we get one of the 2 and 3 picks right I will be very happy

It isnt a lottery for clubs that do their recruiting and drafting work properly.

In MFC's case it has been a lottery in which we have too often entered it with a blindfold on.

[Nasher 33,617]

It isnt a lottery for clubs that do their recruiting and drafting work properly.

In MFC's case it has been a lottery in which we have too often entered it with a blindfold on.

What makes you say that?

We clearly got our picks wrong, what proportion of that though is due to recruiter incompetence (as opposed to poor player development or just plain rotten luck). I'm assuming you know something about the way the MFC operated that we don't.