McKenzie, just like Magner, Couch and Valenti before him, will always standout at VFL level because their hardness and ball winning ability at that level is high enough to make them standout.

AFL is another game, requiring a hell of a lot more than what McKenzie offers the side. People continue to see the number he gets at VFL level and suggest that he comes in...

Roos and co wouldn't care less about his numbers. It's about what else he has to offer? And it's not much. Unless a miracle happens and McKenzie suddenly becomes damaging with his disposal, can kick goals, provide an option, mark the ball and make the right decision with ball in hand, he won't be going anywhere. Tyson, Jones, Viney and Cross all offer more as players as contested ball winners.

Unless we get injuries or McKenzie develops some other attributes that will contribute to our team, he'll be playing VFL for the rest of the year.

I understood the arguments about playing him when there were literally no other options. But now we have options and upgrades. So why are people calling for him to come in? And for who?

If you had read my training report from the other day you will have known that is exactly what Jordie is working on at the moment, developing all the other attributes, as he put it "to become more rounded", he was also very good at the weekend in atrocious conditions, working on the outside as well as inside hence his numbers.

He is also working very closely with Daniel Cross at training, and knows EXACTLY what he has to do/play/perform etc to get back into the AFL side

So you never know a miracle may happen, even though it won't involve some of the Gods we have on this board

If you had read my training report from the other day you will have known that is exactly what Jordie is working on at the moment, developing all the other attributes, as he put it "to become more rounded", he was also very good at the weekend in atrocious conditions, working on the outside as well as inside hence his numbers.

He is also working very closely with Daniel Cross at training, and knows EXACTLY what he has to do/play/perform etc to get back into the AFL side

So you never know a miracle may happen, even though it won't involve some of the Gods we have on this board

Including your fine self, Zeus?

McKenzie, just like Magner, Couch and Valenti before him, will always standout at VFL level because their hardness and ball winning ability at that level is high enough to make them standout.

AFL is another game, requiring a hell of a lot more than what McKenzie offers the side. People continue to see the number he gets at VFL level and suggest that he comes in...

Roos and co wouldn't care less about his numbers. It's about what else he has to offer? And it's not much. Unless a miracle happens and McKenzie suddenly becomes damaging with his disposal, can kick goals, provide an option, mark the ball and make the right decision with ball in hand, he won't be going anywhere. Tyson, Jones, Viney and Cross all offer more as players as contested ball winners.

Unless we get injuries or McKenzie develops some other attributes that will contribute to our team, he'll be playing VFL for the rest of the year.

I understood the arguments about playing him when there were literally no other options. But now we have options and upgrades. So why are people calling for him to come in? And for who?

The problem for McKenzie is that what he has to offer is too similar to Cross, Viney, and, to a lesser extent, Vince. They are the tackling machines asked to apply the defensive pressure that Jordie is good at but the are better at the role than Jordie and look to be attacking when the chance arises.

And with Grimes the tagger du-jour, it's tough for him to get any role in the 22.

McKenzie would have to be a chance to come in to the side but only to tag Cotchin. However, I would probably send N. Jones to Cotchin, because Jackson is a good tagger and I think we get better net gain by using Jones as our tagger.

I would also send Cross to Martin and Vince to Deledio.

Including your fine self, Zeus?

The difference is I come down from Olympus occasionally to speak to the players to find out the facts, rather than just pontificate, I love the number of really good footy judges we have on this board, but strange that none work in the industry

This will be Byrnes' last year in AFL footy and he is a limited footballer. I am irked that Kent is suspended because that role is screaming out for him.

But, as I have said before, I like Roos' promise to the players that if they are the best option for the role, and they can fulfil it - they will play.

The players are always talking about 'being happy to play their role' and the fact that we don't have suitable AFL-level talents to play in those roles isn't the fault of the NQR players in those roles.

If you had read my training report from the other day you will have known that is exactly what Jordie is working on at the moment, developing all the other attributes, as he put it "to become more rounded", he was also very good at the weekend in atrocious conditions, working on the outside as well as inside hence his numbers.

He is also working very closely with Daniel Cross at training, and knows EXACTLY what he has to do/play/perform etc to get back into the AFL side

So you never know a miracle may happen, even though it won't involve some of the Gods we have on this board

How did I know you'd respond...

I appreciate your reports on players, and that you get a lot of news and insight through speaking to them. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to defend a player the second a poster decides to critique a player. This is a football forum Saty. Not everyone develops emotional bonds with the players and my comment is hardly hanging McKenzie out to dry.

I have no doubt he's working on all of those areas in which he lacks. Good for him. My question was directed at posters who were suggesting him to come in and I want to know for who?

McKenzie may be a lovely guy Saty, but he is a one trick pony and that's not going to magically change. There was a spot for him in our side when we had the worst midfield in the AFL. But we're on the improve and injecting quality through the midfield now.

McKenzie is not quality. But I'd have a beer with him.

The difference is I come down from Olympus occasionally to speak to the players to find out the facts, rather than just pontificate, I love the number of really good footy judges we have on this board, but strange that none work in the industry

It's a footy forum Saty! Haha.

What I have said about McKenzie is universally known, and nobody needs to 'work in the industry' to develop an opinion of a player.

I'll back my own judgement. I believe I've played enough footy at a high level to have my opinions heard and respected on a football supporters forum.

The problem for McKenzie is that what he has to offer is too similar to Cross, Viney, and, to a lesser extent, Vince. They are the tackling machines asked to apply the defensive pressure that Jordie is good at but the are better at the role than Jordie and look to be attacking when the chance arises.

And with Grimes the tagger du-jour, it's tough for him to get any role in the 22.

Correct. Viney into his second year is taking more of the load and offers more. Jones we already know offers more. Cross's decision making and coolness under pressure and his experience is vital and Vince has a beautiful outside game, is a goal kicker and also leads.

The fact that we now know Jones can do a run with role as well as win his own ball and contribute really means McKenzie's role as a 'tagger' only is not needed.

IN: Michie

OUT:Byrnes

FB: Garland, Frawley, Jetta

HB: Grimes, McDonald, Terlich

C: Watts, Cross, M. Jones

HF: Bail, Dunn, Salem

FF: Pederson, Dawes, Kennedy-Harris

FOLL: Jamar, Tyson, N. Jones

INT: Howe, Vince, Viney

SUB: Michie

EMERG: Clisby, Gawn, Georgiou

Time for byrnes to go and I'd bring michie in for him to start as sub after his run back at casey. Viv's someone who can play multiple positions which makes him an ideal sub. Also allows salem to finally get a full game.

Hopefully both chip and Terlich are good for the game, but if not I'd have Clisby on standbye for Terlich and Georgiou on standbye for chip.

If chip is fit I'd actually move him back this week funnily enough given his record on Riewoldt and play Dunn forward. Grimes to take Martin who mainly plays forward now, Cross to take Cotchin and Bail to play as a defensive forward and stop the run of Deledio off half back.

It's a footy forum Saty! Haha.

What I have said about McKenzie is universally known, and nobody needs to 'work in the industry' to develop an opinion of a player.

I'll back my own judgement. I believe I've played enough footy at a high level to have my opinions heard and respected on a football supporters forum.

Yes McKenzie's 'shortcomings' are universally known, well at least on this forum, repeated often enough, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be fixed, Pedersen anyone?

You have to earn respect by the way chap, the point I was making, if some posters on here are such good judges of players and their ability to improve or not, then why don't they hold a position in the industry, I thought their insight would be welcomed with open arms

Yes McKenzie's 'shortcomings' are universally known, well at least on this forum, repeated often enough, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be fixed, Pedersen anyone?

You have to earn respect by the way chap, the point I was making, if some posters on here are such good judges of players and their ability to improve or not, then why don't they hold a position in the industry, I thought their insight would be welcomed with open arms

I reckon half on here can do better at recruiting?

Also, thank you for traversing the path down from Olympus

IN: Michie

OUT:Byrnes

FB: Garland, Frawley, Jetta

HB: Grimes, McDonald, Terlich

C: Watts, Cross, M. Jones

HF: Bail, Dunn, Salem

FF: Pederson, Dawes, Kennedy-Harris

FOLL: Jamar, Tyson, N. Jones

INT: Howe, Vince, Viney

SUB: Michie

EMERG: Clisby, Gawn, Georgiou

Time for byrnes to go and I'd bring michie in for him to start as sub after his run back at casey. Viv's someone who can play multiple positions which makes him an ideal sub. Also allows salem to finally get a full game.

Hopefully both chip and Terlich are good for the game, but if not I'd have Clisby on standbye for Terlich and Georgiou on standbye for chip.

If chip is fit I'd actually move him back this week funnily enough given his record on Riewoldt and play Dunn forward. Grimes to take Martin who mainly plays forward now, Cross to take Cotchin and Bail to play as a defensive forward and stop the run of Deledio off half back.

Like the look of this team.

I'd love it if we stuck it up the Tigers!!

Yes McKenzie's 'shortcomings' are universally known, well at least on this forum, repeated often enough, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be fixed, Pedersen anyone?

You have to earn respect by the way chap, the point I was making, if some posters on here are such good judges of players and their ability to improve or not, then why don't they hold a position in the industry, I thought their insight would be welcomed with open arms

I know plenty of sound mathamaticians, none of whom are accountants.

I'm not here to earn respect. This is the last time I'll respond as I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I have.

Pederson is a different player and it's silly to compare the two.

McKenzie was drafted as a rookie for his ferociousness at the player and ball with little else to his name. Pederson actually possesses some handy attributes although limited as a player and has performed his role well enough over the past couple of weeks

Had Clark and Hogan been ready for round one as well as Jamar and Gawn, I doubt Pederson would be getting a game.

Just the same as if Cross and Jones were injured, I'm sure McKenzie would come back in.

IN: Michie

OUT:Byrnes

FB: Garland, Frawley, Jetta

HB: Grimes, McDonald, Terlich

C: Watts, Cross, M. Jones

HF: Bail, Dunn, Salem

FF: Pederson, Dawes, Kennedy-Harris

FOLL: Jamar, Tyson, N. Jones

INT: Howe, Vince, Viney

SUB: Michie

EMERG: Clisby, Gawn, Georgiou

Time for byrnes to go and I'd bring michie in for him to start as sub after his run back at casey. Viv's someone who can play multiple positions which makes him an ideal sub. Also allows salem to finally get a full game.

Hopefully both chip and Terlich are good for the game, but if not I'd have Clisby on standbye for Terlich and Georgiou on standbye for chip.

If chip is fit I'd actually move him back this week funnily enough given his record on Riewoldt and play Dunn forward. Grimes to take Martin who mainly plays forward now, Cross to take Cotchin and Bail to play as a defensive forward and stop the run of Deledio off half back.

Like this too.

Michie for Byrnes.

Perhaps Gawn for Frawley and send Dunn back.

Gawn deep in the square rotating with Jamar.

Jones to go head to head with Cotchin.

Salem to play half forward, JKH pocket with stints on the wing.

Michie as sub.

IN: Michie

OUT:Byrnes

I'm pretty sure Michie's only had the one game with Casey after his jaw fracture so I'd imagine the club will want to give him consecutive weeks there before he's in contention. He was dropped when it happened so he's by no means a walk up start, still I'm sure he'll be knocking on the door in no time.

Just on McKenzie, I feel he's a better player than what he's doing at the moment. He had a difficult pre-season and so is still trying to find match fitness while working on the areas the coaching staff want him to. As has been mentioned here the issue he's fighting is that there are quite a few players at the club that are similar to him, so he'll need to put outstanding Casey performances together to push the one's that have his spot out. I feel Cross is being a bit of a mentor to him, so that can only help his cause.

If they think Salem can play Byrnes' role than yes, Michie or anyone in form, for Byrnes.

But if Salem is not used to that role - this is what is called 'setting someone up for failure.'

We have been very good at that, I was hoping we would stop being so good at it though.

not sure Michie should come back in

he would have to be in the pecking order behind Aidan Riley for starters

The problem for McKenzie is that what he has to offer is too similar to Cross, Viney, and, to a lesser extent, Vince. They are the tackling machines asked to apply the defensive pressure that Jordie is good at but the are better at the role than Jordie and look to be attacking when the chance arises.

And with Grimes the tagger du-jour, it's tough for him to get any role in the 22.

If chip is fit I'd actually move him back this week funnily enough given his record on Riewoldt and play Dunn forward. Grimes to take Martin who mainly plays forward now, Cross to take Cotchin and Bail to play as a defensive forward and stop the run of Deledio off half back.

I'm not sold on Grimes as a tagger. I think we missed his work in defence on Saturday night. I like the idea of him playing on Martin, assuming Martin plays forward.

not sure Michie should come back in

he would have to be in the pecking order behind Aidan Riley for starters

Agree....Pig Dog must play.

if only for the name - cracks me up!

Out Frawley (Inj) Terlich (Conc) Byrnes (Omit)

In Gawn Rliey Clisby/Kent

McKenzie, just like Magner, Couch and Valenti before him, will always standout at VFL level because their hardness and ball winning ability at that level is high enough to make them standout.

Comparing McKenzie to Magner, Couch and Valenti is like comparing the crack in your granny's dining room wall to the Grand Canyon.

McKenzie has won Brownlow votes for BOG on two occasions, he's played fantastic lock down roles that have been crucial to us winning games and he is a leader within the club. Why do you think he won the Coaches award for 3 years in a row?

I acknowledge that with the introduction of Vince, Tyson, Cross, Michie, Riley and Salem his place in the team is far from certain and I acknowledge that under Neeld where his focus was purely on defence his game has surely suffered.

Roos has sent him to Casey to rediscover his attacking attributes and he is regularly getting high numbers to the stage that two weeks ago he was tagged. The comments on his disposal being poor are overstated and fit in the Tom McDonald "lets wait until he makes a mistake so we can sledge him" catagory.

McKenzie may not now be a regular AFL footballer but don't depreciate his past performances because in the past when the rest of the team has thrown in the towel and gone home he's still there putting in.

At least recognize his contribution rather than a totally insulting and inappropriate comparison.

Comparing McKenzie to Magner, Couch and Valenti is like comparing the crack in your granny's dining room wall to the Grand Canyon.

McKenzie has won Brownlow votes for BOG on two occasions, he's played fantastic lock down roles that have been crucial to us winning games and he is a leader within the club. Why do you think he won the Coaches award for 3 years in a row?

I acknowledge that with the introduction of Vince, Tyson, Cross, Michie, Riley and Salem his place in the team is far from certain and I acknowledge that under Neeld where his focus was purely on defence his game has surely suffered.

Roos has sent him to Casey to rediscover his attacking attributes and he is regularly getting high numbers to the stage that two weeks ago he was tagged. The comments on his disposal being poor are overstated and fit in the Tom McDonald "lets wait until he makes a mistake so we can sledge him" catagory.

McKenzie may not now be a regular AFL footballer but don't depreciate his past performances because in the past when the rest of the team has thrown in the towel and gone home he's still there putting in.

At least recognize his contribution rather than a totally insulting and inappropriate comparison.

Both Magner and Valenti have polled Brownlow votes before also. That's not to say McKenzie shouldn't come in this week to replace Byrnes. But only if we want to put a hard tag on Cotchin.

Comparing McKenzie to Magner, Couch and Valenti is like comparing the crack in your granny's dining room wall to the Grand Canyon.

McKenzie has won Brownlow votes for BOG on two occasions, he's played fantastic lock down roles that have been crucial to us winning games and he is a leader within the club. Why do you think he won the Coaches award for 3 years in a row?

I acknowledge that with the introduction of Vince, Tyson, Cross, Michie, Riley and Salem his place in the team is far from certain and I acknowledge that under Neeld where his focus was purely on defence his game has surely suffered.

Roos has sent him to Casey to rediscover his attacking attributes and he is regularly getting high numbers to the stage that two weeks ago he was tagged. The comments on his disposal being poor are overstated and fit in the Tom McDonald "lets wait until he makes a mistake so we can sledge him" catagory.

McKenzie may not now be a regular AFL footballer but don't depreciate his past performances because in the past when the rest of the team has thrown in the towel and gone home he's still there putting in.

At least recognize his contribution rather than a totally insulting and inappropriate comparison.

Seconded

There will be no change unless a player is injured