St. Kilda v Melbourne - 2006 Elimination Final

[monoccular 16,687]

Does anyone here with superior technical knowledge and an ability to explain these things in simple terms know if I am able to save this clip to a USB stick, via an MacBook Air, for later viewing? If so, how?

[Sir Why You Little 35,330]

Does anyone here with superior technical knowledge and an ability to explain these things in simple terms know if I am able to save this clip to a USB stick, via an MacBook Air, for later viewing? If so, how?

I suggest you save it via a YOUTUBE downloader App and then save it to a straight to the USB stick as a destination

Google Youtube downloader...and you can get an app

[monoccular 16,687]

I suggest you save it via a YOUTUBE downloader App and then save it to a straight to the USB stick as a destination

Google Youtube downloader...and you can get an app

Thanks wyl - will give it a go later

[puntkick 325]

I'm more worried about the round 1 2014 Elimination Final !

[monoccular 16,687]

I suggest you save it via a YOUTUBE downloader App and then save it to a straight to the USB stick as a destination

Google Youtube downloader...and you can get an app

Thanks again wyl - I can't seem to find such an App in the app store.

Can you recommend a particular one?

[Chook 14,702]

Thanks again wyl - I can't seem to find such an App in the app store.

Can you recommend a particular one?

What internet browser do you use?

http://safariaddons.com/en-US/safari/addon/130 should work for Safari

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/download-youtube/ should work for Firefox

http://www.chromeextensions.org/music-videos-photos/youtube-downloader/#.Us_fUceqphE should work for Google Chrome.

[Whispering_Jack 28,128]

The first is recruiting. I agree with others that 2007 represented the end of the era of our star players in White, Neitz, Yze, etc. While there may have been some signs of demise during 2006, the fact is we made it to a semi final that year and I do not blame Daniher for 'having a go' at a flag in 2007 rather than start a rebuilding process. Of course 2007 didn't work out due to the drop in form of our stars, injuries and other reasons, but after three years in the finals I think it was fair to try to extract one more good year out of that group.

I'd like to try again to take personalities out of this debate and not make this a blame apportionment exercise but rather to look at cause and effect over time to see if we can understand why our decline was so rapid and then so long-lasting.

To a significant extent, it's true that the team that we saw on that night in September was coming to the end of a cycle with Neitz, White, Robertson and Yze perilously close to the end, others a lot closer to being finished than would have been anticipated and a few more about to suffer injuries that affected their careers at the club. My point is that others have been in that place but prepared their clubs better for the inevitable (Roos and his FD at the Swans being a case in point).

In particular, it's important to plan for the succession in leadership and for the loss of key players (after all, they didn't exactly become veterans overnight). In our case, we knew those four main players mentioned above were on the way out but what was done to replace them? Our recruiting and list management were abysmal in the years leading up to 2006/7. We actually had a premiership ruckman in our grasp and let him go for a late first round draft pick, then took 3 players all 192cm in that draft. In the three years 2005-7 we traded only one player into the club, Byron Pickett who, whilst briefly effective, was already 28 years of age and finished after a year.

These were the years when we should have been developing players for our midfield and forward lines as well as developing leaders and a strong culture. The fact is that we didn't (and that itself was due to many factors including the club's financial position), and in my view, that can't be written off as purely due to the end of a cycle.

This does not mean that the coaches who followed get a free pass. Both of them failed badly but my point is that clubs need to be on top of planning not only for the short term but for the longer journey as well and in that respect while you might consider it to have been "fair to try to extract one more good year out of that group", I think that the reality was that the horse had already bolted.

[Chelly 760]

True. You don't start looking around to replace blokes when they've reached the end of their careers. You plan ahead.

Also agree we should have done more to keep Jolly but we also had Jamar in the wings and White used to go for 25 minutes of every quarter.

[Slartibartfast 16,131]

I'd like to try again to take personalities out of this debate and not make this a blame apportionment exercise but rather to look at cause and effect over time to see if we can understand why our decline was so rapid and then so long-lasting.

To a significant extent, it's true that the team that we saw on that night in September was coming to the end of a cycle

I think there are two primary reasons for what we have seen over the last seven years.

The first is recruiting. I agree with others that 2007 represented the end of the era of our star players in White, Neitz, Yze, etc.

Excellent post Scoop, as ever well thought out and presented.

It's always interesting to look at historical perspectives to understand the present and looking at 2006/7 is a good example. I doubt many would take issue that the list was tired and that we had a big hole in our list regarding leaders and this caused us to fall and fall quickly. WJ has talked about the failure of recruiting in 2004, poor trading of Jolly and a failure to trade in players. But I think in retrospect this doesn't identify the two main reasons we found ourselves in the positions we did.

IMO it starts in 1998/9 when we decided to investigate our TPP compliance of the mid '90 when we subsequently found it to have breached AFL rules. We told the AFL and received fines and draft penalties. I didn't support fessing up at the time but recall being in the minority. It's a little like Carlton now going to the AFL and saying "I know the investigation into tanking is over and I know you don't want to hear this, but we tanked and we're holding a presser to tell everyone at 2.00pm". The '90's salary cap rorting was a dead issue when we fessed up and the AFL didn't want to know. It staggers me we confessed.

As a result we lost three early draft picks over 2 years and were fined. Those draft picks were in 1999 and 2000 and those players would have been in their middle 20's in 2008 when our rebuilding started.

The second thing that happened was a bloke called Ian Johnson. A Board member from the "establishment" and very well connected. He went on television, during a big dinner and botched what I think he meant as a vote of confidence in the Chairman. It came across as a challenge to the leadership and all hell broke loose mid season and completely derailed what was a poor season anyway. This disruption flowed through to the footy department and our recruiting in the 2001 ND where we had three picks in the first 25 or so was nothing short of a disaster.

As a result we had a hole in our list spanning 1999 to 2001. To make matters worse we lost Scott Thompson, our only 1st round pick from 1999 -2000 penalty period getting in effect Moloney in return.

That group of players that was lost due to factors largely outside the control of the FD resulted in a large hole in our list which was devastating when we ran out of steam in 2007.

I don't think the trading of Jolly was a significant loss to the club. IMO Jeff White did a fantastic job and when he left Jamar was a worthwhile replacement.

Furthermore I don't think our position in 2007 explains where we are now. IMO the Saints around 2000. Footscray around 2003 and Hawthorn around 2005 were just as poor as we were in 2008. Within 8 years all those clubs, with solid rebuilding, played competitive finals footy. We are the exception.

So there is no doubt we were poor in 2007 and poorer than perhaps we should have been but there is no nexus between that and where we find ourselves now. We are poorer now than we were in 2007 and we've had 7 years to rectify that situation. The only other club that's stuffed things as badly is perhaps Richmond. Let's hope we are now on our way.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Baghdad Bob

[Hannibal 5,814]

SNIP

Sounds about right. I now look back and have zero confidence CAC would have delivered decent picks with those three that were taken away. But he may have.

You're also right when you say that there's absolutely no excuse for the lamentable position the club has found itself in. I look at Sydney who won the flag in 2005. I appreciate the concessions they've had, but to rebuild and win another flag in 2012 was the blueprint of what can be done by a great club. Only 4 players that played in 2005 played in their next premiership 7 years later. Brilliant stuff.

We have been nothing more than a shambolic joke. Even Richmond didn't sink to our levels. This club has been one of the worst embarrassments in history.

[Slartibartfast 16,131]

I look at Sydney who won the flag in 2005. I appreciate the concessions they've had, but to rebuild and win another flag in 2012 was the blueprint of what can be done by a great club. Only 4 players that played in 2005 played in their next premiership 7 years later. Brilliant stuff.

Wow, amazing.

[Whispering_Jack 28,128]

Excellent post Scoop, as ever well thought out and presented.

It's always interesting to look at historical perspectives to understand the present and looking at 2006/7 is a good example. I doubt many would take issue that the list was tired and that we had a big hole in our list regarding leaders and this caused us to fall and fall quickly. WJ has talked about the failure of recruiting in 2004, poor trading of Jolly and a failure to trade in players. But I think in retrospect this doesn't identify the two main reasons we found ourselves in the positions we did.

IMO it starts in 1998/9 when we decided to investigate our TPP compliance of the mid '90 when we subsequently found it to have breached AFL rules. We told the AFL and received fines and draft penalties. I didn't support fessing up at the time but recall being in the minority. It's a little like Carlton now going to the AFL and saying "I know the investigation into tanking is over and I know you don't want to hear this, but we tanked and we're holding a presser to tell everyone at 2.00pm". The '90's salary cap rorting was a dead issue when we fessed up and the AFL didn't want to know. It staggers me we confessed.

As a result we lost three early draft picks over 2 years and were fined. Those draft picks were in 1999 and 2000 and those players would have been in their middle 20's in 2008 when our rebuilding started.

The second thing that happened was a bloke called Ian Johnson. A Board member from the "establishment" and very well connected. He went on television, during a big dinner and botched what I think he meant as a vote of confidence in the Chairman. It came across as a challenge to the leadership and all hell broke loose mid season and completely derailed what was a poor season anyway. This disruption flowed through to the footy department and our recruiting in the 2001 ND where we had three picks in the first 25 or so was nothing short of a disaster.

As a result we had a hole in our list spanning 1999 to 2001. To make matters worse we lost Scott Thompson, our only 1st round pick from 1999 -2000 penalty period getting in effect Moloney in return.

That group of players that was lost due to factors largely outside the control of the FD resulted in a large hole in our list which was devastating when we ran out of steam in 2007.

I don't think the trading of Jolly was a significant loss to the club. IMO Jeff White did a fantastic job and when he left Jamar was a worthwhile replacement.

Furthermore I don't think our position in 2007 explains where we are now. IMO the Saints around 2000. Footscray around 2003 and Hawthorn around 2005 were just as poor as we were in 2008. Within 8 years all those clubs, with solid rebuilding, played competitive finals footy. We are the exception.

So there is no doubt we were poor in 2007 and poorer than perhaps we should have been but there is no nexus between that and where we find ourselves now. We are poorer now than we were in 2007 and we've had 7 years to rectify that situation. The only other club that's stuffed things as badly is perhaps Richmond. Let's hope we are now on our way.

Excellent Bob although I'm sure that Gutnick would argue that he was aware that we were about to be investigated for salary cap breaches and self-disclosure saved us from an even greater penalty.

However, if it's possible for there to be some connection between the events of 1999 and what happened to us in 2007 and beyond (and I agree that there is) then even more so, it's possible that there is a nexus between recruiting and list management issues of the mid 2000's and what happened later in the decade and in the years that ensued. It's mostly a matter of your viewpoint and how much weight you want to put on things.

Most of these things are up for debate and I'm sure good clubs will analyse their past and come up with solutions to improve their performance. The good thing is that I believe that this is what happened with Roos at the Swans and the succession of power after he left gave that club the opportunity to win the 2012 flag under Longmire. If he can do the same with us, I'll be happy.

[Whispering_Jack 28,128]

And another one for the history books is the fact that, despite the loss of our first pick in the 99 draft, our selections that year were outstanding so in terms of on field personnel, the salary cap sanctions had less effect than they could well have had on the club.

And as much as I am a fan of Mark Jamar, I think Jolly's contribution to two clubs after he left us was far superior. In hindsight, it would have been great if we read the writing on the wall when the centre bounce ruck rules were changed and turned White into a KPP (although I think a brief attempt was made without much success).

[Slartibartfast 16,131]

I now look back and have zero confidence CAC would have delivered decent picks with those three that were taken away. But he may have.

He would have taken Rob Murphy with pick 5 from 1999 and his choice of best available in 2001 was James Kelly.

But I take your point.

[Hannibal 5,814]

He would have taken Rob Murphy with pick 5 from 1999 and his choice of best available in 2001 was James Kelly.

But I take your point.

Wow, amazing.

[Scoop Junior 3,132]

I'd like to try again to take personalities out of this debate and not make this a blame apportionment exercise but rather to look at cause and effect over time to see if we can understand why our decline was so rapid and then so long-lasting.

To a significant extent, it's true that the team that we saw on that night in September was coming to the end of a cycle with Neitz, White, Robertson and Yze perilously close to the end, others a lot closer to being finished than would have been anticipated and a few more about to suffer injuries that affected their careers at the club. My point is that others have been in that place but prepared their clubs better for the inevitable (Roos and his FD at the Swans being a case in point).

In particular, it's important to plan for the succession in leadership and for the loss of key players (after all, they didn't exactly become veterans overnight). In our case, we knew those four main players mentioned above were on the way out but what was done to replace them? Our recruiting and list management were abysmal in the years leading up to 2006/7. We actually had a premiership ruckman in our grasp and let him go for a late first round draft pick, then took 3 players all 192cm in that draft. In the three years 2005-7 we traded only one player into the club, Byron Pickett who, whilst briefly effective, was already 28 years of age and finished after a year.

These were the years when we should have been developing players for our midfield and forward lines as well as developing leaders and a strong culture. The fact is that we didn't (and that itself was due to many factors including the club's financial position), and in my view, that can't be written off as purely due to the end of a cycle.

This does not mean that the coaches who followed get a free pass. Both of them failed badly but my point is that clubs need to be on top of planning not only for the short term but for the longer journey as well and in that respect while you might consider it to have been "fair to try to extract one more good year out of that group", I think that the reality was that the horse had already bolted.

Agree with much of your post, Jack, and a lot of what you said comes down to my first reason as to why we have been so bad in the last seven years - recruiting.

I think though that is has more to do with poor recruiting over a period of time than decisions made around the 2006/2007 period when we were coming to the end of the Daniher days. Yes there were mistakes but I don't think they were as significant as the recruiting failures, particularly around the 2000-2004 period (players who would have been 22-26 years old at the start of the 2008 season.

Obviously my post was just a summary, but if we have a closer look at that drafting period, we selected Scott Thompson as a first rounder in 2000 (star player but left us), then picked up Molan, Armstrong and Rogers with earlyish picks in 2001, Daniel Bell and Nick Smith as first rounders in 2002, McLean and Sylvia as top 5 picks in 2003 and Bate and Dunn as first rounders in 2004. Other than Sylvia (who really only showed glimpses of his talent to be honest) the others have not even come close to producing what would have been expected from early draft picks.

This terrible recruiting period left us with an enormous hole in our list at the start of the Bailey era in 2008.

I think that this, more so than decisions made towards the end of the Daniher era, was the main contributing factor to our initial rapid decline.

As to my second reason, being what happened in 2011, that is obviously a factor relevant to the 'double dip' bottoming out that we experienced in 2012 and 2013 (as were further recruiting blunders in the post-Daniher era). It is very unusual for a club to bottom out, start to rise and then completely bottom out again all within the space of 5 years. I don't think recruiting alone explains why we have regressed so far from where we were at the end of the 2010 season to 2013. To me the infighting of 2011, the shambolic handling of the fallout from 186, the hiring of Neeld and some of his decisions also helped contribute to this second bottoming out.

The good news is I think we are better placed to get off rock bottom this time around.

[Slartibartfast 16,131]

Wow, amazing.

You're a bit touchy lately Ben. I was serious in about the info you put up on the Swans. It's an amazing performance and frustrating when you realize what we've done in a similar time frame.

Anyway chip up old son, not all of us are taking the pizz when we respond to you!

[Hannibal 5,814]

You're a bit touchy lately Ben. I was serious in about the info you put up on the Swans. It's an amazing performance and frustrating when you realize what we've done in a similar time frame.

Anyway chip up old son, not all of us are taking the pizz when we respond to you!

Pizz away.

[Sir Why You Little 35,330]

Pizz away.

you really do have some serious social issues don't you Ben.

Get some assistance...

I am being serious btw.

[Apocalypse XXXI 243]

Did Jolly leave because of better opportunity elsewhere, the money, the fact that he liked the Sydney lifestyle better or some other reason?

[monoccular 16,687]

^^

Jack & Chelly

All too true - an abysmal lack of forward planning.

The old adage - "Fail to plan: plan to fail" has never been truer.

[Hannibal 5,814]

you really do have some serious social issues don't you Ben.

I have zero interest in social skills on an internet forum.

I have no interest in you either.

[Sir Why You Little 35,330]

I have zero interest in social skills on an internet forum.

I have no interest in you either.

i already knew that.

I stand by what i said.

Good Luck.

[mjt 640]

I have zero interest in social skills on an internet forum.

I have no interest in you either.

Im convinced your Rhinos son.

[Alcho Dee 269]

How good was McLean and Bate.....such a different game back then.