Have called for years for Sylvia o be traded but hav been howled down by pea brains that are too scared to be brave, unwilling to move on anyone with talent.

Our club has dug it's own hole, not just the players, supporters helped to a degree.

Point the fingers all you want, hope you have more than two hands though

Sylvia is one of our most combative and consistent players and really seems to care about improving oyr performance. Yesterday he had 8 clearances and 16 contested possies and worked hard the whole game.

People bemoan his poor disposal but he had noone forward of centre to kick to because we had 2 loose men in defence. His 6 inside 50's would have looked much better with a Clark or Dawes up forward.

I agree with WYL,why not reward pathetic players with contract renewal all they have to do is b.tch to media about their playing future especially when they get dropped to the reserves.Other players would see that CS is

untouchable. Lead by example...........no way!

We talk about our weak mids........ can someone tell me who in the midfield should go,remember EVANS will be available next year. Culture(lack of) is a problem at the MFC along with coaching methods.

I agree with WYL,why not reward pathetic players with contract renewal all they have to do is b.tch to media about their playing future especially when they get dropped to the reserves.Other players would see that CS is

untouchable. Lead by example...........no way!

We talk about our weak mids........ can someone tell me who in the midfield should go,remember EVANS will be available next year. Culture(lack of) is a problem at the MFC along with coaching methods.

Thanks Enyaw, reading your post is like solving a rubix cube

Recruiting blokes like Byrnes who is a spud, and way past it is killing our club.

Like many of you here I believe a major Cull of players is needed, however the likely outcome if this happens is the MFC iwill be in exactly the same position it finds itself in this season. Which is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Lets not panic now and keep making bad decisions.

The MFC has taken may positive steps this season to clean out its house. Although the benefits of the chages in key personal will take years to show any real results.

IMO a realistic goal in the 2014 sreaon is to win six or seven games and keep the losing margin down to 20 to 30 points. The rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild is likely to be slow and painful but if there a Grand Final win or two at the end of it, well it will be totally worth it.

I find it hard to get behind any of the current MFC with the exception of Viney so I not fussed on who gets their marching orders.

I also don't see the point of anyone saying "I told you so" as what does this actually achieve besides inflating someones ego.

As for a comment made above its true its ultimately up to the players to either win or loss games, but who is responsible in getting those players in the MFC in the first place. Without Cull those people it will be more of the same.

The MFC has been infected by so many people who had no idea on how to run a modern AFL Club. so now it time to reverse their decisions and rebuild the entire MFC.

Like many of you here I believe a major Cull of players is needed, however the likely outcome if this happens is the MFC iwill be in exactly the same position it finds itself in this season. Which is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Lets not panic now and keep making bad decisions.

The MFC has taken may positive steps this season to clean out its house. Although the benefits of the chages in key personal will take years to show any real results.

IMO a realistic goal in the 2014 sreaon is to win six or seven games and keep the losing margin down to 20 to 30 points. The rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild is likely to be slow and painful but if there a Grand Final win or two at the end of it, well it will be totally worth it.

I find it hard to get behind any of the current MFC with the exception of Viney so I not fussed on who gets their marching orders.

I also don't see the point of anyone saying "I told you so" as what does this actually achieve besides inflating someones ego.

As for a comment made above its true its ultimately up to the players to either win or loss games, but who is responsible in getting those players in the MFC in the first place. Without Cull those people it will be more of the same.

The MFC has been infected by so many people who had no idea on how to run a modern AFL Club. so now it time to reverse their decisions and rebuild the entire MFC.

Here's hoping that is what we are doing!

No point moving anyone out unless you can get somebody better in which clearly didn't happen last recruiting period. I'm still optimistic that we are on the right track.

If we end up with (as I believe we will) A good president, decent board, good coach and assistants plus afl assistance then I think the future looks okay.

well said

for the life of me I just cannot understand it. I know every bloke reading this would give his right one to run out there for the red and blue, why does 90% of our list not give a damn? Why is it seemingly only us, and why does it perpetuate year after year even with the list/coaches/admin constantly being turned over? Why does a player like Jeremy Howe just go stale? You can talk about the ineptitude of coaches we have had, and the disadvantage of being in a poor financial position, but the main problem is what you identify - the attitude of the players. It's not that they are just no good, half of them were high drafts and they were for a reason, we have seen all of them at times play glimpses of good footy, even sometimes together, such as the second quarter today. WHY why why why can't we have 22 blokes on the field giving 100% every week as is the non-negotiable standard at basically every other club? Does anybody in the rooms at full time give the players a bake, stand Jack Viney up and ask the likes of Watts and Howe to explain to him why they did not try as hard as he did today? Is it considered a no-no to call players out these days, are they so petulant and protected that if you upset them they will leave and go on TV bagging you as a coach or what.. what is the story? Others have mentioned the incident where Hill kicked a goal today after just running past an almost stationary Watts, I could not believe my eyes. Why isn't the video of this shown to the whole group at the next team meeting and the question asked of Watts 'who do you think you are with this rubbish?' that is what would happen if someone at Sydney or Geelong or Hawthorn did that, every player makes sure they don't get caught with those kind of efforts because they will absolutely hear about it from the coach and the leadership group. For us nothing happens, and that creates a situation where others think they can get away with it too. When are we going to have coaches and leaders in place that make these demands and actually enforce them, it is driving me insane.

This is a very good post. The only thing I can find in it is about our leadership group having the ability to make examples of certain parts of play.

It's hard for them (the LG) to stand up and demand certain things, when they aren't capable of doing it themselves.

Even as supporters, especially in dark times, we look for someone onfield who we want to go on a journey with, or make us walk taller than what we are. Sadly, that player is either sitting in the grand stands whit question marks on him every playing again, or is a bloody 19 year old kid that hasn't even finished his first season. I find nothing inspiring in Grimes, I find nothing inspiring in Trengove. These two are the guys that lead us out to battle every week.

The players have been poorly coached for the last 5 years or more. When Neeld came in with his action and behaviours crap and elite preparation processes he did it the wrong way and completely and emotionally lost the players. The result of this is still bearing fruit today and to think Neil Craig can change how our players are thinking about themselves, their coaches and playing for the MFC is delusional.

Blame the players all you want but until we get a coach in that convey what it means to play for the MFC and have pride in the jumper it won't change. It's going to take a very special individual to do this because the players are obviously so bereft of any real positivity on game days.

I think almost all of the players want to win games. Just some of them don't want to change in order to do that.

I am a loyal supporter and will continue to be. I'll buy my membership each year and go to every game I can. I will continue to follow the club regardless of the situation we are in but I am sick and tired of being angry and disappointed. This has been going on for too long and I understand why kids are walking away from the club, we have nothing to entice them with. As mentioned, its so easy to point the finger at officials and coaching staff because they can be sacked and replaced mid season, our players cannot. The effort (or lack of) this group of players put in has become damaging to the AFL. The biggest venue in the country has 13k people there and "the masters of the MCG" get whooped by 95 points and its become the norm for this club. Bartlett put it well when he said "We need to build culture where in the future nothing other than winning is acceptable," because at the moment winning is an added bonus to trying hard. I HATE reading after a loss that "the boys showed a lot of guts today" and "in the end the better team won". Why can't we be that better team? Why? There is an endless list of reasons why we are this bad but in the end that doesn't really matter. What does matter is that we ignore that list and not look at why we are this bad but look at what we as a club and what each individual player has to offer. Do a complete review of every facet of this club and see what our positives are. It may be a short list but we build from there. We add to that list. Because until we do that we will continue to worry about how we got ourselves into this position not how do we get out.

Stefanovic OUT!

I can't help but feel that our club is killing our players, not the players killing the club.

The new president has already identified that our culture is non existent, yet we keep expecting the players to build the culture. The club needs to set the standards and ensure they become engrained in the attitudes of the players, who will then drive those standards into the future.

Jackson also identified the culture as an issue. Is was identified as a problem before Neeld started to.

You can only blame the players for so much.

Sylvia is one of our most combative and consistent players and really seems to care about improving oyr performance. Yesterday he had 8 clearances and 16 contested possies and worked hard the whole game.

People bemoan his poor disposal but he had noone forward of centre to kick to because we had 2 loose men in defence. His 6 inside 50's would have looked much better with a Clark or Dawes up forward.

Not so sure about Dawes. I was very impressed with him 2 years ago at the pies but this year he seems injury prone, unable to take a mark, not willing to put in some hard tough footy. Jack Watts should be a permanent forward. Jesse Hogan and Mitch Clark should be good next year if Clark's foot can ever get better.

Not so sure about Dawes. I was very impressed with him 2 years ago at the pies but this year he seems injury prone, unable to take a mark, not willing to put in some hard tough footy. Jack Watts should be a permanent forward. Jesse Hogan and Mitch Clark should be good next year if Clark's foot can ever get better.

Dawes would create a contest and opportunity to crumb, not to mention leadership and making our other forwards (Fitzy, Howe) walk taller by taking best defender.

I can't help but feel that our club is killing our players, not the players killing the club.

The new president has already identified that our culture is non existent, yet we keep expecting the players to build the culture. The club needs to set the standards and ensure they become engrained in the attitudes of the players, who will then drive those standards into the future.

Jackson also identified the culture as an issue. Is was identified as a problem before Neeld started to.

You can only blame the players for so much.

You argument is frankly ridiculous. A first year player shows it can be done.

Selwood did it at Geelong as well. The pea hearts will always blame someone else. Nate Jones doesn't, Viney doesn't. Travis Boak doesn't. Instead they get out there and do it. Callan Ward does it.

Watts is waiting for someone to show him. Please...

Memo to Jack Watts.

"If it is to be....It is up to me...."

RDB.

Says it all.

From next year, it will be incredibly hard to take...

I think people overestimate how long the mess of the decisions made from 2008 will take to clean up. Put frankly, the last main character in this story to leave his job was Mark Neeld. He wasn't there in 2008 but I feel that he was an extension of CS's reign. He was a political appointment, one put in to take out CS's enemies in the playing group and to 'discipline' Bailey's 'soft' list. His appointment wasn't a rebuild. It was more a shuffling of deck chairs.

My hopes for 2014:
1) Administrative positions will no longer be a talking point. All the important people will be where they need to be. All of them will be competent. This then will lead to...

2) Players pulling their weight. The sad thing is that the players have been able to get away with the bollocks they have pulled over the last 3-4 years because the people who sign their cheques have had absolutely no right to criticize their performance because they have been just as indolent and lazy. Tanking. Knuckleheads going around bragging about tanking and 'dry jokes' that set us back 500k. Signing sponsors who make Ralph Wiggum look like Emil Krebs. Boards re-signing CEO's they were going to sack one day later and then signing him to a further 3 years only to sack him 3 months into his new contract. Losing a life long supporter as a sponsor who has been incredibly critical of said ex CEO backstabbing his company. Having the club doctor liase with Stephen Dank (who would later be investigated). Running a crackpot coaching search run by the CEO, the president and the CEO's mate. On a personal note, I recieved two bloody membership cards this year and neither one worked when I went to go through the turnstiles. Members recieving certificates of appreciation signed by club officials who have either been fired or resigned. Sacking a coach and forcing him to sit like a shag on a rock in front of the media scrum in a non issue club tie and shirt and in front of a blank wall. And I'm just getting warmed up.
As I said, no chance I would want to be getting lectures on my work ethic from that lot, no matter how lazy I was. Plus, you don't clean up that mess in the space of two months. People underestimate how big a circus we have been.

Once admin. gets sorted, the players will have no-where to hide.

Next year, I will not mention the bad old days because quite frankly that will be a cop out. Next year, it's on the players.

CBF...send that into the new President today.

You have covered it all.

I will revise that to 'next year, it SHOULD be on the players'. My argument is based on an assumption that is yet to eventuate.

This is what i said post 186.

Any player or official who was part of that day must leave the club.

186 was akin to a stock market crash.

G Lyon you completely misread the situation. CS should have been kicked out the door so hard that day....2 years later our non respecting player list is still being paid.

Your obsession with that game is farcical WYL.

No one's denying that that game was a massive moment for the MFC. It's also hardly contested that we made mistakes in dealing with it.

But, every time we stumble, to just scream '186! 186!' is nonsensical.

Also, just to ponder, these are the current players who were on our list in 2011 (with those playing against Geelong underlined):

N Jones, Watts, Frawley, Trengove, Sylvia, McKenzie, Dunn, Grimes, Garland, Macdonald, Tapscott, Davey, Gawn, Howe, Jetta, Jamar, Davis, Spencer, McDonald, Bail, Blease, Strauss, Fitzpatrick, Nicholson, Evans.

So, 56% of our current list was here in 2011 (i.e. 44% of our list wasn't). Moreover, of the current list, 13 played that day (which is 29.5%).

Now, Macdonald's gone, Jetta, Davis, Bail, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans are in trouble, and there are queries over where Watts, Sylvia and Jamar will be next year. Huge potential for that number to drop even further.

It's only just been two years since '186'. We're going to soon be at less than 50% of our 2011 list on our current list. We're going to lose a few more of those who played that day too.

In short - you're bleating about something that is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Our list is changing. Our coaches have changed, and continue to do so. Our administration is being overhauled. Continually linking every loss, every mistake, every problem, to Round 19 2011 is unhelpful and useless.

Move on, WYL. The MFC is trying to. I suggest you do the same.

I just realised who WYL reminds me of..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiMOKmp0uZc

Dawes would create a contest and opportunity to crumb, not to mention leadership and making our other forwards (Fitzy, Howe) walk taller by taking best defender.

not sure about his on field leadership this year. Maybe next year if he's not injured and goes in harder.

Your obsession with that game is farcical WYL.

No one's denying that that game was a massive moment for the MFC. It's also hardly contested that we made mistakes in dealing with it.

But, every time we stumble, to just scream '186! 186!' is nonsensical.

Also, just to ponder, these are the current players who were on our list in 2011 (with those playing against Geelong underlined):

N Jones, Watts, Frawley, Trengove, Sylvia, McKenzie, Dunn, Grimes, Garland, Macdonald, Tapscott, Davey, Gawn, Howe, Jetta, Jamar, Davis, Spencer, McDonald, Bail, Blease, Strauss, Fitzpatrick, Nicholson, Evans.

So, 56% of our current list was here in 2011 (i.e. 44% of our list wasn't). Moreover, of the current list, 13 played that day (which is 29.5%).

Now, Macdonald's gone, Jetta, Davis, Bail, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans are in trouble, and there are queries over where Watts, Sylvia and Jamar will be next year. Huge potential for that number to drop even further.

It's only just been two years since '186'. We're going to soon be at less than 50% of our 2011 list on our current list. We're going to lose a few more of those who played that day too.

In short - you're bleating about something that is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Our list is changing. Our coaches have changed, and continue to do so. Our administration is being overhauled. Continually linking every loss, every mistake, every problem, to Round 19 2011 is unhelpful and useless.

Move on, WYL. The MFC is trying to. I suggest you do the same.

But at the same time you call yesterday a "stumble" which is akin to excusing it.

Yesterday was a disgrace in front of 13,000 people. The new President must start changing the culture inside the walls today or else nothing will change.

I just realised who WYL reminds me of..

i have more hair than Mr Sherman thankyou very much and i prefer yelling at the clouds!!

But at the same time you call yesterday a "stumble" which is akin to excusing it.

Yesterday was a disgrace in front of 13,000 people. The new President must start changing the culture inside the walls today or else nothing will change.

Jump up and down all you like, how do you know changes have not been made already and don't fool yourself yesterday would not have happended had the changes already been put in place.

But at the same time you call yesterday a "stumble" which is akin to excusing it.

Yesterday was a disgrace in front of 13,000 people. The new President must start changing the culture inside the walls today or else nothing will change.

FFS. Discussing anything with you is akin to slamming your head into a brick wall.

Where did I 'excuse' yesterday's performance? I'd say, if anything, your insistence on blaming 186 is ignoring the present and thus more of an 'excuse' than anything.

We're all moving on from 186 except you, WYL. As usual, you're stuck in the past, and you're far less relevant.