Now about those consent forms signed by the players ...

Associate Professor Brian Stoffell is Head of the Social Health Sciences Unit at Flinders University. An expert in medical ethics and health law, he is Director of SA Healths Health Care Ethics Unit at FMC.

Not on my watch: responsibility in the Essendon saga

  On 20/11/2014 at 08:50, Whispering_Jack said:

Now about those consent forms signed by the players ...

Associate Professor Brian Stoffell is Head of the Social Health Sciences Unit at Flinders University. An expert in medical ethics and health law, he is Director of SA Healths Health Care Ethics Unit at FMC.

Not on my watch: responsibility in the Essendon saga

Good read. I loved this line:

"What Stephen Dank instituted and what has created the furor bears the same relationship to science that Groucho Marx does to Marxism."

This never gets boring

Good v Evil

and Good just keeps kicking Evil's backside!

BREAKING NEWS

The MessyDrug Football Club has reconsidered its options on how it can Cheat win their way to another flag or two. Drug have now been ruled out because they had been caught by ASADA/AFL.

By sending in their Storm Troopers to every game in 2015, how could they possibly be beaten?

  On 20/11/2014 at 04:03, ManDee said:

Reminds me of the North Korean photoshop fails

Kim says remove the legs or your family die!

Two new Bombers arrive at Windy Hill.

or

Hey Jobe, those drugs have some weird side effects, I've grown wings and my legs fell off!

I know its poor form to quote oneself but as no one else said it I had to.

  On 20/11/2014 at 20:51, ManDee said:

Two new Bombers arrive at Windy Hill.

or

Hey Jobe, those drugs have some weird side effects, I've grown wings and my legs fell off!

I know its poor form to quote oneself but as no one else said it I had to.

Poor form indeed . . .but funny!!

An element to all of this I find, well, quite hilarious, is the lengths the players are going to to hide their identities in all of this. I mean there are millions of current Essendon players so no one will figure it out when, 1) said players disappear off the grid and just coincidentally arent out there playing footy and 2) have their names plastered all over the ASADA Register of Findings as having incurred penalties (sanctions)

As with so much of this it seems very little was thought through with any logic.I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or otherwise and I really couldn't care less but I have very little sympathy, if any, for the players concerned. Whilst they are obviously counted amongst the less sharp of a tool shed ( they have to be ) and maybe they weren't fully across what was happening ( but its beholding upon them to be so ) they have had ample opportunity to revisit all of this and come to a more reasoned standpoint and understanding that they have participated in a program that sought unfair advantage otherwise known as cheating.

They need to own this.Not saying they'd be proud to do so but we all stuff up, wittingly and otherwise and its how you deal with that that shapes character. They keep wanting to tilt at the windmill, to deny what has obviously happened , to hope for a technicality to release them free them from this need to be accountable. They pray for the get out of jail card.

None of this speaks to remorse or ownership of their folly. One off events might attract some leniency but this was systemic. This was a concerted effort to rort the fairness of the game, this is a serial offence. I thoroughly hope that the Tribunal takes this into account. This is not not a can of drink inadvertently consumed it was a deceit that the players must have invested of themselves.

Quite frankly all concerned should just be banned, and Im not talking for a year. To this end the AFLPA should be behind ASADA as this would indicate to their association's members that they are pro doing the right thing and if you do you will be backed. Currently this amateur bunch of nuff nuffs are sending all the wrong signals. Whilst they could provide access to advise and even representation its the stance that's all wrong.

Seems the AFLPA are just as morally bankrupt as many of the AFL itself.

My sympathies go to the thousands of sporting people who do the right thing and take pains to ensure they are even when dodgy advice seems to work against them.

EFC entered into a Faustian deal and they can pay up.The AFL might want to tread ever so carefully as I think its totally misreading the standpoint of much of the game's public. If they dont bring in the correct and just finding then just watch the grassroots support fade away, Watch as mums and dads question whether they want little Jonny or Abi to participate in Auskick, watch as a 'decent' percentage of a probably somewhat older audience move to distance themselves from the now corrupt game.

If theres even a sniff of the idea that its now about he who cheats best wins then thousands will abandon the game at this level.

I think the AFL might indeed lean more towards the right outcome but im not convinced it will be for the right reasons.

  On 20/11/2014 at 21:40, beelzebub said:

If theres even a sniff of the idea that its now about he who cheats best wins then thousands will abandon the game at this level.

BB, while I agree with you on the drugs issue, I wonder if your statement above is correct. Interest in AFL hasn't declined because 'who has the most money wins', so I suspect that it might not if you replace 'money' with 'cheats'. We are in a 'whatever t takes' culture these days.

  On 20/11/2014 at 21:57, sue said:

BB, while I agree with you on the drugs issue, I wonder if your statement above is correct. Interest in AFL hasn't declined because 'who has the most money wins', so I suspect that it might not if you replace 'money' with 'cheats'. We are in a 'whatever t takes' culture these days.

Sad but I suspect true sue

  On 20/11/2014 at 21:57, sue said:

BB, while I agree with you on the drugs issue, I wonder if your statement above is correct. Interest in AFL hasn't declined because 'who has the most money wins', so I suspect that it might not if you replace 'money' with 'cheats'. We are in a 'whatever t takes' culture these days.

Sue > I honestly think that theres a difference. Many can understand the idea that money makes things happen. It surrounds us all in day to day life. Does that necessarily prevent you from aspiring to whatever it is you wish ? I doubt it. Money is something akin to a vehicle , or more closely a fuel in lifes little journey. I dont hink that in itself is an impediment to following, viewing, attending and supporting either your team or the game in general. Its life. Cheating however isnt condoned in society. Some will always try it on, its part of the human condition as it were.

That it happens is one thing, but for it to effectively be endorsed by way of inappropriate action or a lack of diligence in seeking to address it I think will have a different effect on the games following.

I disagree that we would ALL be a 'whatever it takes culture" I can accept that teh bloke down teh road has a higher paying job , or pricier house or gets to travel 6 months a year etc...all those things that money can do etc. But I wont accept that he can walk up to me and steal what is mine, or could be. Two very different things

  On 20/11/2014 at 22:11, beelzebub said:

I disagree that we would ALL be a 'whatever it takes culture" I can accept that teh bloke down teh road has a higher paying job , or pricier house or gets to travel 6 months a year etc...all those things that money can do etc. But I wont accept that he can walk up to me and steal what is mine, or could be. Two very different things

Not that different in my mind IF your neighbour doesn't deserve all that money. If I feel he is only a small step from having stolen it, or doesn't pay his taxes, they are not so different. And with the ratio of CEO pay to average wages having made an astronomical leap in the last 25 years, I see a lot of stealing going on.

But I agree, cheating will turn off more people than buying talent, staff and facilities.

But back on topic - cheating doesn't seem to have affected many Essendon supporters yet. I have reported one case of an Essendon supporter who even had links to Hird in junior days, having thrown in the towel. But everyone else says their Essendon mates are still delusional. I guess that EFC supporter who posts here a bit (Tim?) is also an exception.

It truly seems as though many an Essendon supporter is infected with something. otherwise intelligent and reasoned people come out with some of the most unbelievable bs in their support of Hird etc.

A curious constant though is an almost perfect inability to understand the workings of ASADA and who is actually beholding upon to prove what.

Even my step son..a very clever lad was taken aback and dumbfounded when it was suggested to him that it wasnt ASADA who needed to prove guilt, but the players and EFC who needed to prove innocence. That seriously played with his head lol. He dint quite understand. I asked was he familiar which the French system of Law ( Inquisitorial ) and the Napoleonic Code etc.

He said no..I said he's about to !!

  On 19/11/2014 at 07:23, Redleg said:

It might.

On this one I can offer insight. No way no how. With every policy I have ever seen and I have seen a lot ( and I do have to read fine print) - illegal behavior will void a claim. In this case, uncertainty of illegal behavior would at least put the claim on hold until all the court action has been finalised.

Football clubs have been cheating the systen as long as I can remember.

Salary caps, tanking, drafting irregularities and plain old G & C.

The difference is that the EFC has potentially put their players health at risk.

That is the big one for me

I've got this really sick feeling these bastards will walk away with a slap.

By all the gods man has ever prayed to I hope I'm wrong.

  On 20/11/2014 at 22:56, old dee said:

Football clubs have been cheating the systen as long as I can remember.

Salary caps, tanking, drafting irregularities and plain old G & C.

The difference is that the EFC has potentially put their players health at risk.

That is the big one for me

I am sure other clubs have put their players health at risk. Perhaps not to the same scale as the Essendon but I would not be surprised if a majority of clubs have dabbled in the past. They just were never caught out.

  On 20/11/2014 at 22:35, sue said:

Not that different in my mind IF your neighbour doesn't deserve all that money. If I feel he is only a small step from having stolen it, or doesn't pay his taxes, they are not so different. And with the ratio of CEO pay to average wages having made an astronomical leap in the last 25 years, I see a lot of stealing going on.

But I agree, cheating will turn off more people than buying talent, staff and facilities.

But back on topic - cheating doesn't seem to have affected many Essendon supporters yet. I have reported one case of an Essendon supporter who even had links to Hird in junior days, having thrown in the towel. But everyone else says their Essendon mates are still delusional. I guess that EFC supporter who posts here a bit (Tim?) is also an exception.

Sue I think it is a grey area re who deserves money in life and is subject to perspective. Rules change over time and there are grey areas re what is right or wrong even though something may be within or outside of the rules.

In its purest form spirt is honest, and rewards skill, effort and teamwork. This is why we as a society must fight to keep our game clean and also ensyre that the spirit of the game is not lost in treating it exclusively as a 'business'.

  On 20/11/2014 at 23:17, chookrat said:

Sue I think it is a grey area re who deserves money in life and is subject to perspective. Rules change over time and there are grey areas re what is right or wrong even though something may be within or outside of the rules.

In its purest form spirt is honest, and rewards skill, effort and teamwork. This is why we as a society must fight to keep our game clean and also ensyre that the spirit of the game is not lost in treating it exclusively as a 'business'.

Noble objective chook but I fear you have already lost.

Sadly it is big business now and there is no going back.

  On 20/11/2014 at 23:00, Uncle Fester said:

I've got this really sick feeling these bastards will walk away with a slap.

By all the gods man has ever prayed to I hope I'm wrong.

It's funny you say that I have the very same feeling

I dont

For me sport, professional sport is about winning within the rules.

I accept that to win, rules will be pushed to the limits. I understand grey areas. I hope my team (our team) pushes all the limits within the rules.

There is no way that the EFC stayed within the rules. They have broken multiple rules from good governance to workplace health and safety to accurate record keeping to administering unapproved and potentially harmful substances to young men in their care. For these reasons the club must be punished and severely punished at that.

As Beeb stated earlier the players are responsible for their part in this appalling blight on our game, and a very real punishment must be meted out to them as well.

The AFLPA have not done enough, and should be calling for penalties against the EFC .

Workcare should do its job, and that will mean severe punishment for the EFC and its directors.

The AMA should examine the role of Doc Reid and deal with him. Hird should be banished from the game with his name removed from the records, if ever anyone in this saga deserves to be persona non grata it is James Hird.

Then & only then can the AFL and the competition move on cleansed, cleansed but tarnished.

I will continue to expect teams to push boundaries, but to never break them.

Essendon’s anti-doping hearing could be delayed after a dispute over access to evidence

"A DISPUTE over access to evidence could delay the start of the Essendon doping hearings until January."

Oh dear Dont the new penalties come into force in Jan ???

Lawyers for 32 of the 34 former and current Bombers issued with infraction notices want the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority to surrender its entire body of evidence before the AFL anti-doping tribunal sits.

ASADA is of the view it should only be required to hand over evidence it will rely on to prosecute its case. (News.com)

I find it mildly amusing that EFC's lawyers want all the evidence gathered by ASADA. Probably because EFC shredded everything they had. ASADA think only the evidence it will rely on to prosecute its case is enough.

Is this another delaying tactic? What could they possible hope to gain? Perhaps someone at EFC ordered some 50/50 KiaOra cordial and therefore they could not have taken prohibited substances!

  On 21/11/2014 at 00:25, ManDee said:

For me sport, professional sport is about winning within the rules.

I accept that to win, rules will be pushed to the limits. I understand grey areas. I hope my team (our team) pushes all the limits within the rules.

There is no way that the EFC stayed within the rules. They have broken multiple rules from good governance to workplace health and safety to accurate record keeping to administering unapproved and potentially harmful substances to young men in their care. For these reasons the club must be punished and severely punished at that.

As Beeb stated earlier the players are responsible for their part in this appalling blight on our game, and a very real punishment must be meted out to them as well.

The AFLPA have not done enough, and should be calling for penalties against the EFC .

Workcare should do its job, and that will mean severe punishment for the EFC and its directors.

The AMA should examine the role of Doc Reid and deal with him. Hird should be banished from the game with his name removed from the records, if ever anyone in this saga deserves to be persona non grata it is James Hird.

Then & only then can the AFL and the competition move on cleansed, cleansed but tarnished.

I will continue to expect teams to push boundaries, but to never break them.

At the risk of offending you ManDee your expectation is doomed to disappointment.

Humans being what they are the boundaries will be broken the only question in my mind is when.

That is why we have rules and punishment for those who transgress.

The EFC saga is a long way from over but already there is plenty of evidence that some of the transgressors have got off scot free or near to it. There are also a couple who have so far seemingly profited from the experience.

I cannot see most of the organisations you suggest doing anything more than sitting on their hands. All too hard for them.

Please keep on expecting but dont be surprised when the next transgression happens it is just around the corner

  On 21/11/2014 at 01:13, ManDee said:

Lawyers for 32 of the 34 former and current Bombers issued with infraction notices want the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority to surrender its entire body of evidence before the AFL anti-doping tribunal sits.

ASADA is of the view it should only be required to hand over evidence it will rely on to prosecute its case. (News.com)

I find it mildly amusing that EFC's lawyers want all the evidence gathered by ASADA. Probably because EFC shredded everything they had. ASADA think only the evidence it will rely on to prosecute its case is enough.

Is this another delaying tactic? What could they possible hope to gain? Perhaps someone at EFC ordered some 50/50 KiaOra cordial and therefore they could not have taken prohibited substances!

Is this the same EFC that went to court to suppress all the evidence gathered?