Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[sue 9,142]

Llyod's saying it's time for the AFAL and ASADA to take some responsibility for the players mental health take the cake. If the club was really concerned about their players' mental health due to their uncertainties, they would either magically produce a list of what each player was injected with or threaten Dank with some legal action to produce his records from when he was employed by them. I don't know what legal case they would have a right to mount, I guess it might depend on the contract they had with Dank. But threatening an action would at least make it look like they cared.

On the other hand if no-one really does know what was injected, a lot of people should be resigning in shame and donating their $1M to a fund to cover future medical costs.

[Redleg 41,427]

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

What is irrational about punishing a person who takes illegal drugs in sport and blames it on another's poor advice or judgment?

I don't want more punishment I want clean sport.

[Slartibartfast 17,625]

No it is his fault and you have civil remedies. When you play sport that may have another impact effect and another head of civil damage.

Also see my post 3655.

Well others can rejoice in the punishment of players if it happens and when the first one is diagnosed with cancer they can say "at least he was punished before he went".

Dramatic but that is potentially what people are arguing. It's sick. If it was your son Redleg, how would you feel if he'd been poisoned by these dopes and then was punished.

Buger the law.

[Slartibartfast 17,625]

What is irrational about punishing a person who takes illegal drugs in sport and blames it on another's poor advice or judgment?

I don't want more punishment I want clean sport.

The solution is not punishment of innocent kids, it's regulating those in charge of them.

[Redleg 41,427]

Bob, Wade Lees got 18 months for importing a supplement which contained a small amount of a banned substance. It was intercepted by customs and never even got into his possession.

If he produced the Casey Doctor, who says to the authorities that he told him it was perfectly legal and he should use it if he wanted to get over his injury, should Lees have been let off?

[daisycutter 29,737]

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

i thought the professional advice (Doctor) at essendon was against the "pharmacological experiment"

[sue 9,142]

We need more rational thinkers and less pedants. These kids have been punished beyond imagination and now people want more.

I don't get that and I don't accept the "deterrent" argument. We are entitled to rely on professional advice in a professional environment.

Yes we are, but we are not in the same situation as sportsmen.

You are allowing your sympathy for the players being screwed by their club to cloud your judgement. To expand on the point Redleg and I made, if players are not punished for drug taking in these circumstances, the norm for real drug cheats and their clubs will be to employ a scapegoat coach who takes the rap if they are caught out.

Edited March 11, 2014 by sue

[Whispering_Jack 30,640]

So when I go to the doctor for my flu shot and he gives me something else it's my fault?

I don't see it your way. People rely on professional, the young footballers relied on professionals. They were duped.

So was the 16 year old Bulgarian weightlifter.

Did she deserve the gold medal more than the one who came second in competition and was clean?

[Slartibartfast 17,625]

i thought the professional advice (Doctor) at essendon was against the "pharmacological experiment"

And he should never set foot in a medical surgery again. I might add, that's the view of many many medical professionals as well.

[old dee 23,871]

What is irrational about punishing a person who takes illegal drugs in sport and blames it on another's poor advice or judgment?

I don't want more punishment I want clean sport.

IMO that day has gone Redleg.

The best we can hope for is to stop / catch as many as possible.

The financial rewards are such now that people will attempt to gain advantage from Drugs and there will be plenty who will aid them for the same reasons.

The genie is out of the bottle.

[Slartibartfast 17,625]

So was the 16 year old Bulgarian weightlifter.

Did she deserve the gold medal more than the one who came second in competition and was clean?

Jack it's sad you equate this to winning and losing. It's about peoples health and it's about their reliance on professional advice in a professional environment in a group situation.

I'm surprised you can't see the difference but we can just differ. I don't think like you.

[Redleg 41,427]

Well others can rejoice in the punishment of players if it happens and when the first one is diagnosed with cancer they can say "at least he was punished before he went".

Dramatic but that is potentially what people are arguing. It's sick. If it was your son Redleg, how would you feel if he'd been poisoned by these dopes and then was punished.

Buger the law.

If it was my son as you ponder, I would be raising hell in the media, the Courts, wherever, I wouldn't be protecting his club. I might also drop a few people.

Don't assume because I am arguing an issue with you, that I don't have the same sympathy for the players, I do, maybe more.

I have attacked Essendon supporters over the disgusting way their club has treated its players and not once referred to punishment. I am not concerned with punishment per se, but stopping drugs in sport.

My overwhelming concern has always been with the player's health and even that of their unborn children. This was a disgusting episode of total lack of care for the players all to win more games of football.

The argument we are having is about controlling drugs in sport, not the victimisation of a group of Essendon players.

What I am saying is that if you can blame another for your drug use, everyone will do it and how do you then have clean competition? A rational answer to that will happily have me agreeing to letting the Bomber players off.

[daisycutter 29,737]

And he should never set foot in a medical surgery again. I might add, that's the view of many many medical professionals as well.

maybe, but it does weaken the player's claim of accepting "professional" advice when their own doctor was against it

we are led to believe that not one player sought any outside independent advice and they even signed a waiver....quite an amazing display of innocence

contrary to what some posters say at least quite a few of these players would have been very knowledgeable about wada/asada protocols

....and a lot of these players were not "kids".

[biggestred 5,138]

david zaharakis says hi

[daisycutter 29,737]

david zaharakis says hi

didn't he claim the only reason he didn't partake was a fear of needles?

what is your point?

As Zaharakis' manager, former Essendon player Scott Lucas, confirmed that his client baulked at receiving regular injections because "he doesn't like needles", Ings dissected the development from a strict anti-doping view.

Ings said Zaharakis' position would have been of great interest to ASADA as it investigated the Bombers, adding that it was revealing culturally.

Ex-Bomber Mark McVeigh has said as many as four Essendon players did not take part in the routine injecting. Fairfax Media understands there were three, including 2011 club champion Zaharakis.

McVeigh said the players did not take part because of their fear of needles, rather than any objection to the program.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/zaharakis-refusal-may-sting-players-20130801-2r2bc.html#ixzz2vcT1jPDO

Edited March 11, 2014 by daisycutter

[Slartibartfast 17,625]

What I am saying is that if you can blame another for your drug use, everyone will do it and how do you then have clean competition? A rational answer to that will happily have me agreeing to letting the Bomber players off.

Punishing innocent victims will never solve the issue of drugs in sport, you need to punish those that made concious decisions to take banned drugs or cause others to take banned drugs.

IMO, and it's just that, the Essendon players were innocent of knowingly taking banned drugs and when they asked trusted professional people in a professional environment (or one they should have been able to trust) they were told there was "no problem". I know the mother of one of the players. He was duped.

Anyway I've made my point. Cheers

[biggestred 5,138]

my point is that for whatever reason david zaharakis refused to be in the program.
He had final say in what was injected or not injected into his body.

He took responsibility for it.

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

It is no defence to the AFL, ASADA or WADA codes for the player to be ignorant of the fact that the substance or treatment used was prohibited. If it can be shown within the scope of the burdon of proof (which is between reasonable doubt and the balance of probabilities) that the players took or intended to take banned substances then they are gone, as are the officials under rule 8.

The waivers rather than being an excuse are proof of negligence.

[sue 9,142]

BB you express sympathy for the players and many of us share and understand that concern. But the result of not penalising them is that future drug cheating will be encouraged and other players will be sucked into drug cheating/experimentation. They don't have names yet, but they deserve your sympathy too. And there would be many more of them.

[Whispering_Jack 30,640]

Jack it's sad you equate this to winning and losing. It's about peoples health and it's about their reliance on professional advice in a professional environment in a group situation.

I'm surprised you can't see the difference but we can just differ. I don't think like you.

This thread is several months old and covers nearly 150 pages in which I have dealt many times with the issue of the health of the players and their reliance on "professional" advice which needs to take into account that these players signed waiver agreements that mentioned the taking of drugs that were, with a few exceptions, not vitamin supplements. That issue is certainly an important one in the context of the debate and one which raises obvious concern for the participants (willing or unwilling, informed or uninformed) but it does not absolve the players from responsibility and sanction which is what I've been addressing in the posts immediately above and which you think is "sad".

It was you who stated in your first post today that you "hope the players get off". I believe that would achieve exactly what the spin doctors operating on Essendon's behalf are seeking to achieve by playing the sympathy card and they've managed to get a lot of people, including yourself, hook line and sinker.

That's sad.

[Spirit of the Demon 256]

It was you who stated in your first post today that you "hope the players get off". I believe that would achieve exactly what the spin doctors operating on Essendon's behalf are seeking to achieve by playing the sympathy card and they've managed to get a lot of people, including yourself, hook line and sinker.

So the clean athletes will suffer.

I have a friend who supports the Blues (yes I know ). He remembers them giving Essendon hell on two occasions in 2011 only to find when they played them the following year the Bombers had all put on bulk and weight far beyond what would normally be expected by a clean programme involving weights only.

That's 2012. The players didn't know the drugs on the waiver form were making them bigger than everyone else and they were all so very innocent?

[Satan 2,881]

my point is that for whatever reason david zaharakis refused to be in the program.

He had final say in what was injected or not injected into his body.

He took responsibility for it.

Just waiting for a photo of him at the blood bank giving blood to blow the scared of needles story out of the water

[Red and Bluebeard 2,090]

Only if the answer is no case to answer R and B

Not so sure, OD. If there is a case to answer the legal wranglings alone will drag on for years ...

[Red and Bluebeard 2,090]

essendon should be relocated lock stock and barrel to the big river in north africa

I think it is the opposite, DC -- they need someone to lead them as far away as possible from denial (although not necessarily into a wilderness for forty years).

Edited March 11, 2014 by Red and Bluebeard

[old dee 23,871]

Not so sure, OD. If there is a case to answer the legal wranglings alone will drag on for years ...

That is true but if there is no case to answer the howls will go on for years.

Most on here want blood and lots of it.