Looking forward to seeing the architect of our modern economy tonight .

PJK was a master parliamentarian and did well battling the "gutless spivs,intellectual hoboes,painted, perfumed gigolos and guttersnipes" of his time.

I'll record it for Rob and Ben so they can see how a guy with half a brain can answer a question without having to stammer for 2 minutes while he thinks of nothing to say.

Left school at 14 and still makes the monk look like a brain injury patient despite the Rhodes Scholarship the church gave him.

SBY has requested an apology. Abbott has today refused to give one. I make no apologies for seeing that as a problem.

Just give the apology and move on. The longer this goes on, the more it festers.

Let's say he apologises and it happens again or Snowden leaks even worse instances of espionage - it'd look even worse and put Abbott in the position of having to grovel for every little bit of what we all know is common practice. That said bugging the first lady's phone (provided she is apolitical) is probably worthy of an apology.

The US NSA should apologise to Australia for clumsily letting someone like Snowden get his mits all over such sensitive information.

Let's say he apologises and it happens again or Snowden leaks even worse instances of espionage - it'd look even worse and put Abbott in the position of having to grovel for every little bit of what we all know is common practice. That said bugging the first lady's phone (provided she is apolitical) is probably worthy of an apology.

The US NSA should apologise to Australia for clumsily letting someone like Snowden get his mits all over such sensitive information.

So you would opt for the wait until it blows over approach? I'm getting the impression that isn't going to fly. It's going to be interesting seeing how it pans out. Graincorp is Hockey's first real test. This is Abbott's.

Agreed on second point. I have no time for those who praise Snowden.

Edited November 19, 201311 yr by P-man

SBY has requested an apology. Abbott has today refused to give one. I make no apologies for seeing that as a problem.

Just give the apology and move on. The longer this goes on, the more it festers.

He shouldn't apologise for what all governments do.

Indonesia is grandstanding and you're too dumb to notice.

Sometimes what the Left think is a problem actually isn't. Other times their solution creates more problems than what they perceive to be a major issue. It's called unintended consequences.

The Left love to seem like they're doing something. All compassion with no thought to consequences. Conservatives look at all angles before jumping onto the next feel-good bandwagon.

The Left embrace selfism. I embrace individualism.

Conservatives by definition don't jump on anything except the status quo! It is about maintaining the pecking order of society. Lefties tend to be about reform and change so there is bound to be successes and failures along the way. Without some change the nation and society stalls, please refer to any society ruled by a dictator, re the Middle East or in the Soviet Block. Sometimes conservatives do bring in change, refer to the GST but it is not their default position. They spend a lot of their time dismantling the previous ALP Goverment's initiatives. Refer Tony Abbotts whole election campaign, it was about tearing down the C tax, the Mining Tax etc.

The strength of democracies is that there are regular changes in government that resets the crony network links every 3 to 6 to 9 years. New ideas, new cronies that need to build or rebuild their relationships and advantages. The strength of our system is that it changes sides regularly. Some here believe it is a struggle of good versus evil but really both sides have more in common than against each other.

Conservatives by definition don't jump on anything except the status quo! It is about maintaining the pecking order of society. Lefties tend to be about reform and change so there is bound to be successes and failures along the way. Without some change the nation and society stalls, please refer to any society ruled by a dictator, re the Middle East or in the Soviet Block. Sometimes conservatives do bring in change, refer to the GST but it is not their default position. They spend a lot of their time dismantling the previous ALP Goverment's initiatives. Refer Tony Abbotts whole election campaign, it was about tearing down the C tax, the Mining Tax etc.

The strength of democracies is that there are regular changes in government that resets the crony network links every 3 to 6 to 9 years. New ideas, new cronies that need to build or rebuild their relationships and advantages. The strength of our system is that it changes sides regularly. Some here believe it is a struggle of good versus evil but really both sides have more in common than against each other.

I am with you Comrad

LOL

He shouldn't apologise for what all governments do.

Indonesia is grandstanding and you're too dumb to notice.

haha. Am I? That's nice.

You're to be pitied more than despised champ. I sense a very lonely person behind that keyboard.

Your enormous powers of perception may have picked up that I haven't disputed that possibility. That doesn't change the fact that Indonesia want to save face and likely won't be satisfied until that happens.

haha. Am I? That's nice.

You're to be pitied more than despised champ. I sense a very lonely person behind that keyboard.

Your enormous powers of perception may have picked up that I haven't disputed that possibility. That doesn't change the fact that Indonesia want to save face and likely won't be satisfied until that happens.

Oh dear can we just keep our comments to the politics of it all and drop the personal stuff! The political differences in thinking are quite facinating to see in this dull period between seasons.

Once the season starts we won't give a flying f*^k about Tony et el. And who thinks what about what.

Oh dear can we just keep our comments to the politics of it all and drop the personal stuff! The political differences in thinking are quite facinating to see in this dull period between seasons.

Once the season starts we won't give a flying f*^k about Tony et el. And who thinks what about what.

No idea why you've aimed that towards me. I was responding to yet another juvenile "too dumb" "too thick" etc Benny post.

I'd say good luck getting Ben to leave out the personal insults. Take that away and he's got very little going for him.

But I take your point.

Edited November 19, 201311 yr by P-man

However can I just add to the theme of this thread that TA is an embarrassment is the information that is coming out that Australia is now playing a destructive, spoiling role at the Warsaw climate change talks. And we know we took a stand with Canada against a Commonwealth Green Fund to help the small low lying Pacific ommunities that are going under the rise of sea levels.

Abbott is anti Global Warming and represents the interests of the big carbon polluters. This is why he is more than an embarrassment, he is down right dangerous to our environment. We can have an argument on what difference we make to emissions but the problem is we are among the World's biggest coal and gas exporters. Add that in to our high per capita emissions and we are a big player in the Global emissions equation.

we need to be a major player in reducing our emissions but Greg Hunts capped direct Inaction policy will go no

Talk about Media Bias, the Guardian sat on this until after the election so they could embarrass Abbott, I have heard that they got the info back in June.

THE Guardian has been in possession of the Snowden intelligence documents for several months but its Australian arm only last week received material alleging Australia targeted the Indonesian President's phone, Guardian Australia editor-in-chief Katharine Viner says. As ex-foreign minister Alexander Downer slammed The Guardian's behaviour in reporting the content of the documents and triggering a crisis in Australia's ties with Indonesia as "contemptible", Viner defended the decision to share the story with the ABC.

Wonder how the Labor Party would have handled this.

now seems the indos were eavesdropping on our phone system at the same time and trying to recruit officials as spys

how surprising, not

Talk about Media Bias, the Guardian sat on this until after the election so they could embarrass Abbott, I have heard that they got the info back in June.

THE Guardian has been in possession of the Snowden intelligence documents for several months but its Australian arm only last week received material alleging Australia targeted the Indonesian President's phone, Guardian Australia editor-in-chief Katharine Viner says. As ex-foreign minister Alexander Downer slammed The Guardian's behaviour in reporting the content of the documents and triggering a crisis in Australia's ties with Indonesia as "contemptible", Viner defended the decision to share the story with the ABC.

Wonder how the Labor Party would have handled this.

Probably would have changed leaders.

Then changed back again.

Why on earth we should ever kowtow to a bunch of crooks I'll never . The whole place is run on nepotism and corruption.

All Tony need do is state the bleeding obvious.. 'we all do it, and we all know why" and suggest all parties move on.

There's a very real reason why a criteria for any long range fighter/bomber of the RAAF is that it be able to sortie fully armed from our shores to theirs and return ( now with a-a-r with KC30 )

Yes theres a time for inclusive diplomacy and theres time to take the bastards aside and explain a few facts of life...WE DONT TRUST YOU...get over it !!

its a bit like the aboriginal affairs portfolio=nobody wants it

same with Indonesia=nobody in each government cares

the real Indonesian question is.both us and them are being taken to the world court

this could why some of the malarkey that's going on atm

its a bit like the aboriginal affairs portfolio=nobody wants it

same with Indonesia=nobody in each government cares

the real Indonesian question is.both us and them are being taken to the world court

this could why some of the malarkey that's going on atm

more likely chest-puffing for upcoming elections in indonesia

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australia-to-stop-phone-tapping-indonesians-says-jakarta-security-chief-20131120-2xumb.html

Looks like some form of reason will win the day and they will opt for the Obama-Merkel approach. Grandstanding or not, the relationship is both too fragile and too important to leave it unresolved.

The Indonesian Govt is...and mske no mistake a closet bunch of self serving crooks who have much vestage in preserving the status quo as modt of them,personally , or through family interests have fingers in many pies.

Many years back their fishing fleets regularly stole from our waters . This slowed after our navy accidently missed when firing across somr bows and blew some out of the f@#*ing water !! Thats whst they understand....brinkmanship.

I genuinely feel for the average Indonesian as no one is really looking out for them , certainly not their own govt.

DC is correct. This is chest puffinv for their own propaganda efforts re impendinv elections.

Personally id pull their ambassor in and quietly explain the NEW lay of the land. You need to treat these virtual dictators with the contempt they deserve. They can co oprerate or we should make their lot a merry hell.

Time to stop namby pamby pussyfooting and grow some.

The Indonesian Govt is...and mske no mistake a closet bunch of self serving crooks who have much vestage in preserving the status quo as modt of them,personally , or through family interests have fingers in many pies.

Many years back their fishing fleets regularly stole from our waters . This slowed after our navy accidently missed when firing across somr bows and blew some out of the f@#*ing water !! Thats whst they understand....brinkmanship.

I genuinely feel for the average Indonesian as no one is really looking out for them , certainly not their own govt.

DC is correct. This is chest puffinv for their own propaganda efforts re impendinv elections.

Personally id pull their ambassor in and quietly explain the NEW lay of the land. You need to treat these virtual dictators with the contempt they deserve. They can co oprerate or we should make their lot a merry hell.

Time to stop namby pamby pussyfooting and grow some.

Their human rights record is appalling, but the Greens seem to ignore this.

We give these pricks $500M + a year, let's cut that out if they want to play hard ball. That money probably goes straight in to the pockets of their leaders.

Their human rights record is appalling, but the Greens seem to ignore this.

We give these pricks $500M + a year, let's cut that out if they want to play hard ball. That money probably goes straight in to the pockets of their leaders.

Yes Robbie-lets just go to war with 300 Million Muslims on our doorstep.

Why would we bother trying to treat them in a civilised way.

Brilliant .

Edited November 20, 201311 yr by Biffen

Yes Robbie-lets just go to war with 300 Million Muslims on our doorstep.

Why would we bother trying to treat them in a civilised way.

Brilliant .

They spend more tie faction fighting...even more than our labor party to be seen as a real threat but they are none the less a thorn in our side. The very reason we kept the pigs flying was they were (as ought to be ) scared shltless of them. Thats why we had them . Lets not paint everything with crayons. They are arrogant pricks of the nth degree as far as the govt goes.

Yes they are the largest Islamic nation on earth...they also couldnt organise a plss up in a brewery. They need to be constantly reminded of this.

Yes they are the largest Islamic nation on earth...they also couldnt organise a plss up in a brewery

They don't drink much really.

They don't drink much really.

ironically the govt does !!! Go figure hey.

Biff..these arent the words of a rabid bigot.I went to school with some of these kind. that is...the well of class of indonesia. They are ok as such but all in all a huge conglomerate of hypocites

ironically the govt does !!! Go figure hey.

Biff..these arent the words of a rabid bigot.I went to school with some of these kind. that is...the well of class of indonesia. They are ok as such but all in all a huge conglomerate of hypocites

I'm not accusing you of bigotry beezle-

Though"these kind" does sound a bit "old fashioned" as a lot of people are really a bit of this and a bit of that in racial terms.

We are all hypocritical at times but it would be far better for the country,and the world if we remained civil toward each other ,as I often forget to do right here!

I dont quite understand the hate towards tony abbott, the man has just taken over from one of the most inept governments around and is getting the blame for everything that happened on their watch. Take tony abbott out of the situation for and consider the facts. Indonesia have made it clear that we are not friends and that they dont really want to be friends, however they are happy to take $500m in aide and 000's of visitors to bali every year who inject hundreds of millions of dollars into their economy. This is the country that invaded east timor and who no qualms in killing australian journalists along with the east timorese, who were caught themselves spying or attempting to spy on the howard governement, a country that allowed bali bomber participants and terrorists to spend less time in jail than an australian woman with a surfboard full of weed. a government that relies on australia to steam hundreds of miles/kilometers to rescue asylum seekers 40k off their coast. who are now claiming they cannot maintain their search areas under international obligation so that will leave australia to pick up the slack. a country known for its corruption and instability including support / collusion with people smugglers and terrorist groups. Now that to me is a neighbor that needs watching or should we just continue to roll over and play dead and hope that they forgive us for our sins while they enjoy the benefits of their own.