funny you say that bb

as a young bloke my son played against him for 3 years,he was nothing but a scragger in all that time

nice kid, great family, terrific work ethic

but justa scrubber

Yeh, that's why he got drafted, Adelaide tried to pinch him and he's now in the leadership group having won three coaches awards in a row finishing top 5 in the B&F last year.

Time will tell.

Yeh, that's why he got drafted, Adelaide tried to pinch him and he's now in the leadership group having won three coaches awards in a row finishing top 5 in the B&F last year.

Time will tell.

But bb you say Neeld was hopeless so does an award from him care much weight?

Interesting thoughts about Jordie there Baghdad and I agree. He actually had some good games when he started as just a hard in and under player. No one expected him to be a star but he looked like he was going to become a lot better player than he has become.

Basically looking at his stats (thanks footy wire) he showed continual improvement over his first three years as follows:

2009 averaged 14 touches and 3.7 tackles

2010 averaged 18 touches and 6.7 tackles

2011 averaged 20 touches and 6.7 tackles

I still believe he was tagging a lot in 2011 and we a very handy player on our hands where he was stopping players and getting a fair bit of the pill.

2012 averaged 17 touches and 5.8 tackles

2013 averages 16.8 touches and 4.1 tackles.

Since 2011 he is getting less of the pill and laying less tackles.

Yeh, that's why he got drafted, Adelaide tried to pinch him and he's now in the leadership group having won three coaches awards in a row finishing top 5 in the B&F last year.

Time will tell.

have you ever been involved with a footy club?

if not, ask somebody with experience, what the coaches award is

maybe read all of my comments not half of them

Interesting thoughts about Jordie there Baghdad and I agree. He actually had some good games when he started as just a hard in and under player. No one expected him to be a star but he looked like he was going to become a lot better player than he has become.

Basically looking at his stats (thanks footy wire) he showed continual improvement over his first three years as follows:

2009 averaged 14 touches and 3.7 tackles

2010 averaged 18 touches and 6.7 tackles

2011 averaged 20 touches and 6.7 tackles

I still believe he was tagging a lot in 2011 and we a very handy player on our hands where he was stopping players and getting a fair bit of the pill.

2012 averaged 17 touches and 5.8 tackles

2013 averages 16.8 touches and 4.1 tackles.

Since 2011 he is getting less of the pill and laying less tackles.

All that is fine deeko but how many of those possesions goes straight to the other team?

I think Grimes should come in for Dunns spot, I prefer him across half back picking up possies and taking intercept marks. He can also rotate through the midfield as well.

I'd go with:

Garland Frawley Terlich

Grimes McDonald Clisby

That is a DAMN good backline. Add it to the rest of the team and you get this:

B: Garland Frawley Terlich

HB: Grimes McDonald Clisby

C: Howe N Jones Trengove

HF: Watts Dawes Sylvia

F: Hogan Clark Kent

FOL: Gawn Viney M Jones

INT: Evans Toumpas Rodan Davey

Come on. Surely that's a good Melbourne side at last. And all of those players are on our list right now. No need for draft picks or white knights.

That is a DAMN good backline. Add it to the rest of the team and you get this:

B: Garland Frawley Terlich

HB: Grimes McDonald Clisby

C: Howe N Jones Trengove

HF: Watts Dawes Sylvia

F: Hogan Clark Kent

FOL: Gawn Viney M Jones

INT: Evans Toumpas Rodan Davey

Come on. Surely that's a good Melbourne side at last. And all of those players are on our list right now. No need for draft picks or white knights.

Superman Now that does look good!

Seriously Chook it does look better that some of recent times.

But you are only as good as the other team lets you perform .

We have all got excited in the past about how good our team looks

only to be walloped.

Excuse my pessimism but I will see how they perform before I get too excited.

have you ever been involved with a footy club?

if not, ask somebody with experience, what the coaches award is

maybe read all of my comments not half of them

Mate I've been involved with several and yes, I know what a coaches aware is and I know what a top five in the B&F is and I know what it means when an opposition club specifically targets a player. I know what it means to be involved in the leadership group. Actually I'd back my knowledge against yours any day but that isn't the point. And I'd back that my involvement was with a footy club at a higher level than yours.

He, like so many others on our list, went backwards under the coaching of Neeld after a very promising beginning.

l think, and hope, that he'll surprise. It's a view, live with it.

But bb you say Neeld was hopeless so does an award from him care much weight?

He won awards under Bailey, Viney and Neeld. What do you reckon.

He won awards under Bailey, Viney and Neeld. What do you reckon.

None of them exactly covered themselves in glory bb.

Don't take much from those three

We were also hardly a wonderful side thought that whole period.

That's actually not quite right. If you go back and look at McKenzie under Bailey when his sole task wasn't tagging Jordie showed he did have offensive skills and played some very good games. He's a natural inside mid with very clean hands and his vision in close is very good. He also has very good stamina but hasn't been able to offer spread as he's been following the best mid from the opposition around for a couple of years.

I'm a bit sick of saying it but judging players, particularly younger developing players in the past few years is meaningless. Neeld killed them. He shredded their confidence, demanded defence and asked them to play a game plan not suited to the one of the youngest lists in the competition.

There is no doubt Jordie has stalled since Neeld came but prior to that many here had high opinions of him. Even in the last couple of weeks under a good coach we've seen significant improvement in players such as Trengove and Watts. I'm backing McKenzie to be one of those. McKenzie, like Trengove, is so team and coach oriented he will carry out the coaches instructions to the letter and it's why both have struggled to make impacts over the last couple of years. McKenzie is no world beater but I reckon you'll see a completely different player in the last half of this season.

I reckon James Strauss will improve significantly as well, he strikes me as a player who needs a bit of support which is something Neil Craig will offer. You only need to see the player reviews to see how Strauss is improving with Casey since Neeld has left. One wonders where Taggert would be at another club.

Don't underestimate what damage Neeld did to the psyche of our players. Grimes, Trengove, Watts, McKenzie, Taggert, Strauss, Blease, Spencer, Bail as well as experienced players such as Frawley were all impacted by the incompetence of Neeld. Now he is gone, along with others who were not up to the task, we will see what these players can produce given just half a chance.

I don't disagree with the effect Neeld had on our players, but I don't agree with your assessment of McKenzie. Even under Bailey his primary value to the team was defensive, not offensive. Yes, he may have got more of the ball pre-Neeld, but I don't think that's because Neeld changed him or made him more defensive.

I'm sure at some point he'll return to the senior side, but right now I'm not sure I see a long-term place for him in the side. He's clearly a strong contributor and has an effort and grunt that others lack, but I'm just not convinced that even the McKenzie of 2011 that you think was more offensive is good enough.

Just about everyone who plays with the dees has improved since Neeld left we need a few weeks and games to evaluate players before we start putting them into categories .

All that is fine deeko but how many of those possesions goes straight to the other team?

Tell me. Do you know? I don't but what I will tell you is that because he plays as a tagger the vast majority of his possessions are contested and in heat with the oppositions best mid on his tail.

Look, he turns it over but so does Trenners, Grimes, Toumpas, Terlich, Blease, Howe and Jones. They all do. It's a silly knock unless you can show that he does so more than his team mates in similar situations.

I don't think he's terrific by foot but I think he's good by hand and I think he's very clean in tight and he's brave. I'd like to see what he can do as a ball winning inside mid with the freedom to run. I'm thinking a Daniel Cross type player or a poor mans Matthew Boyd. That's the type. It's not elite but it's solid, dependable, will play a role and will do the hard stuff and leave nothing behind. He was our only good player in the 186 point loss to Geelong. And he was good when everyone else was just pathetic.

I don't think we are so rich with mids that we can ignore his positives and I reckon too many here are just buying the negatives. But as I'm sick of saying, time will tell.

Tell me. Do you know? I don't but what I will tell you is that because he plays as a tagger the vast majority of his possessions are contested and in heat with the oppositions best mid on his tail.

Look, he turns it over but so does Trenners, Grimes, Toumpas, Terlich, Blease, Howe and Jones. They all do. It's a silly knock unless you can show that he does so more than his team mates in similar situations.

I don't think he's terrific by foot but I think he's good by hand and I think he's very clean in tight and he's brave. I'd like to see what he can do as a ball winning inside mid with the freedom to run. I'm thinking a Daniel Cross type player or a poor mans Matthew Boyd. That's the type. It's not elite but it's solid, dependable, will play a role and will do the hard stuff and leave nothing behind. He was our only good player in the 186 point loss to Geelong. And he was good when everyone else was just pathetic.

I don't think we are so rich with mids that we can ignore his positives and I reckon too many here are just buying the negatives. But as I'm sick of saying, time will tell.

I guess the difference is I think time already has told.

However I don't hate him or anything similar He has played some good games but IMO the good ones are far outweighed by the bad ones.

He always gives 100% as I have said on other threads, I just don't see him in our medium term future.

But it is only my opinion

Just about everyone who plays with the dees has improved since Neeld left we need a few weeks and games to evaluate players before we start putting them into categories .

The next 2 weeks will show whether the players have improved or whether our opposition just created that impression.

Under bailey when jordie was Injured it made a huge impact on our team IMO. Seemed depleted in confidence under Neeld (anyone noticing a trend here?). I believe this bloke is our Shane tuck. Just let the kid play with some freedom. He's a see ball get call, see player tackle player. Re-enforce that to him and just let him play.

The next 2 weeks will show whether the players have improved or whether our opposition just created that impression.

No, the rest of the season will. Much better teams than us will get spanked by Swans and the Cats.

Wasn't this always the preparation for Clark though? I was under the impression that he would need to take more time off to take the pins out anyway...or was it a case of the pins moving and needing to be taken out against what was planned?

I'm not too worried about it either way though. It might be wise to slowly ease him in at VFL for the remainder of 2013 though. I don't see the point in bringing him back into the side. Leave Fitzy there to show us what he can do and contribute. This could be a blessing in disguise.

i for one cant wait to see clark dawes and hogan play together, opposition nightmare

No, the rest of the season will. Much better teams than us will get spanked by Swans and the Cats.

If we see signs of sustained effort, the ability to control periods of the game and maintain possession against Sydney and Geelong I'll be happy. Kicking a respectable score would also be a pretty good indication that our structures are holding up to the inevitable pressure of a seasoned opponent. Seeing Watts, Toumpas, Terlich and Clisby continue to show confidence at this level against two of the best teams going around and I'll also be more inclined to believe OUT Neeld IN Craig has succeeded in re-programming the players in a positive way.

No, the rest of the season will. Much better teams than us will get spanked by Swans and the Cats.

BFRE was right. If we show the same standard of improved football against Sydney and Geelong, it will indicate that there has been genuine improvement.

If we regress into poor football, the likes of which we saw before Craig, it will suggest that our perceived improvement may have been due to playing the next two worst sides in the competition.

Of course, we might have improved but still suck against Sydney and Geelong, but the next two weeks do stand to show how, if at all, we've improved.

That's actually not quite right. If you go back and look at McKenzie under Bailey when his sole task wasn't tagging Jordie showed he did have offensive skills and played some very good games. He's a natural inside mid with very clean hands and his vision in close is very good. He also has very good stamina but hasn't been able to offer spread as he's been following the best mid from the opposition around for a couple of years.

I'm a bit sick of saying it but judging players, particularly younger developing players in the past few years is meaningless. Neeld killed them. He shredded their confidence, demanded defence and asked them to play a game plan not suited to the one of the youngest lists in the competition.

There is no doubt Jordie has stalled since Neeld came but prior to that many here had high opinions of him. Even in the last couple of weeks under a good coach we've seen significant improvement in players such as Trengove and Watts. I'm backing McKenzie to be one of those. McKenzie, like Trengove, is so team and coach oriented he will carry out the coaches instructions to the letter and it's why both have struggled to make impacts over the last couple of years. McKenzie is no world beater but I reckon you'll see a completely different player in the last half of this season.

I reckon James Strauss will improve significantly as well, he strikes me as a player who needs a bit of support which is something Neil Craig will offer. You only need to see the player reviews to see how Strauss is improving with Casey since Neeld has left. One wonders where Taggert would be at another club.

Don't underestimate what damage Neeld did to the psyche of our players. Grimes, Trengove, Watts, McKenzie, Taggert, Strauss, Blease, Spencer, Bail as well as experienced players such as Frawley were all impacted by the incompetence of Neeld. Now he is gone, along with others who were not up to the task, we will see what these players can produce given just half a chance.

Love this post. It's like the players have just had a strait jacket removed from them. You can almost see the young blokes exploring again; trying ideas out, learning for next time. This is development not only as an individual but as members of a team. The click could happen surprisingly quickly with such a talented young team.

I think Blease re-injured his ankle at training today.

No, the rest of the season will. Much better teams than us will get spanked by Swans and the Cats.

Of course you will learn more over an extended period but playing two vey good after two very bad will give us a better understanding. Fox footy stated our disposal efficiency was 3rd in the league over the last month. Keen to see how it hold up under pressure.

Wasn't this always the preparation for Clark though? I was under the impression that he would need to take more time off to take the pins out anyway...or was it a case of the pins moving and needing to be taken out against what was planned?

I'm not too worried about it either way though. It might be wise to slowly ease him in at VFL for the remainder of 2013 though. I don't see the point in bringing him back into the side. Leave Fitzy there to show us what he can do and contribute. This could be a blessing in disguise.

Hmmm... I can see where you are coming from, C420, but I beg to differ, If he is fit, then he plays. Full stop. He gives the other players a lift, I think, and his presence certainly lifts the supporters. There is also a part of me that says list management like this is the first step on the road to a word that rhymes with merchant banking ...