On 25/07/2013 at 12:34, s-t-i-n-g-a said:

I can see why this is an issue in general but is the crux of the matter that 'self reporting' can reduce a penalty?

That's a very good question.

All the articles coming out of Herald Sun seem to me to be trying to Deflect the focus from the issue of Essendon players being injected with AOD a banned substance. First there was a secret deal between AFL, ASADA and Essendon that suggested collusion now there is the AFL CEO has warned Essendon the night before they came forward to ask ASADA to look into the supplement regime. The spin doctors are earning their keep creating controversy and doubt in the public about the validity and veracity of the investigating organisation and trying to invent a narrative that paints them as the victim of a heavy handed government agency and the ominous AFl, whom, will ultimately decide its fate after the investigation. If football fans in Australia stop talking about the fact that Essendon Players were injected with AOD and start talking about a side issue then mission accomplished.

Also on another note Self Reporting reduces the penalty to a half at the most. First offence 2 years ineligibility to play.

10.5.4 Admission of an Anti-Doping Rule Violation in the Absence of Other Evidence

Where an Athlete or other Person voluntarily admits the commission of an anti-doping rule violation before having received notice of a Sample collection which could establish an anti-doping rule violation (or, in the case of an anti-doping rule violation other than Article 2.1, before receiving first notice of the admitted violation pursuant to Article 7) and that admission is the only reliable evidence of the violation at the time of admission, then the period of Ineligibility may be reduced, but not below one-half of the period of Ineligibility otherwise applicable.

That also depends on whether ASADA had reliable evidence of the doping prior to Essendon coming forward this will only get you 1 year on the sideline. They may try for the no fault but I can not see how they would argue that they did not do it to enhance their performance. They willing injected it as they signed forms to say that they understood what they were taking. No Fault seems to be the defence along the lines of a competitor drugged your food or drink or you were given a drug whilst unconscious. As previously stated saying ASADA said it was okay does not negate your responsibility to ensure you know exactly what is being injected into you. This is written into the WADA code see below

2.2.1 It is each Athlete’s personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited Substance enters his or her body. Accordingly, it is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing Use on the Athlete’s part be demonstrated in order to establish an anti-doping rule violation for Use of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method.

  On 25/07/2013 at 08:31, mjt said:

The way I see it Sue is its AD and Evans version against Hird and Robson, Hird passes the buck at every opportunity and he is the head coach, if he jabbed my boy 40 to 50 times with peptides I would break his jaw, I can't see how anyone would take James word over AD, that's just my opinion sue.

Agree with everything bar Hird v Fat Controller. I only say that because I think they both have something to hide. I haven't gone back through all the posts but ok, so AD didn't tip of the bombers( their come clean press conference very convenient) but did he try to cut a deal with ADADA on behalf of them?

I wonder what the parents of players are thinking now? Surely it will all be alright because Hird told them so after calling them all to the club.

  On 25/07/2013 at 12:53, rjay said:

That's a very good question.

I'm living in Sydney and as far as the Cronulla Sharks were told, come clean now and cop 6 months or wait to be found and cop 2 years. I can only assume this was the same for the AFL players. Jobe's confession should be seen as too little too late.

Stuart O'Grady asked to resign or will be terminated.EFC carry on as normal.The whole saga with drugs is a clusterfcuk.As far as I'm concerned pain killers are just as insidious as every other drug banned.

Either ban them all or make them all legal cherry picking what drugs are legal is crap.A player having 25 pain killing jabs a game or an athlete blood doping.Both are drug induced outcomes.

  On 25/07/2013 at 14:10, keep13alive said:

Stuart O'Grady asked to resign or will be terminated.EFC carry on as normal.The whole saga with drugs is a clusterfcuk.As far as I'm concerned pain killers are just as insidious as every other drug banned.

Either ban them all or make them all legal cherry picking what drugs are legal is crap.A player having 25 pain killing jabs a game or an athlete blood doping.Both are drug induced outcomes.

You won't get an argument from me on painkillers, and I also think if the players association was concerned for player welfare they would want them out of the game. Masking the pain is not good for a players long term wellbeing.

As for the argument that they are not performance enhancing well take them away and see how well the player performs then. If you can't play then you don't, the only injection players should get are flu shots and the like and anaesthetics when having ops. The rest should be outlawed.

there all lying

  On 25/07/2013 at 13:10, FerdDaDee said:

All the articles coming out of Herald Sun seem to me to be trying to Deflect the focus from the issue of Essendon players being injected with AOD a banned substance. First there was a secret deal between AFL, ASADA and Essendon that suggested collusion now there is the AFL CEO has warned Essendon the night before they came forward to ask ASADA to look into the supplement regime. The spin doctors are earning their keep creating controversy and doubt in the public about the validity and veracity of the investigating organisation and trying to invent a narrative that paints them as the victim of a heavy handed government agency and the ominous AFl, whom, will ultimately decide its fate after the investigation. If football fans in Australia stop talking about the fact that Essendon Players were injected with AOD and start talking about a side issue then mission accomplished.

The only thing it paints in my mind is that as 'BB' said above they are all lying.

The funny thing is a lot of Essendon supporters think it would be good to lose the points this year, leave the players alone and clear the deck for a run at a flag next year. Not much chance I would think, if they lose points then they have been found guilty and if that's right then the players will get whacked. They better get Del because him and BJ may be the only senior level players running around next year.

I felt a bit sorry for the players and I still do for the young ones but the leaders at the club should never have let this happen, they have been around long enough to know better. I also find it impossible to believe the player managers and players association didn't know what was going on, it beggars belief that with 40 plus players nothing was said. These guys, managers and the association are being very slippery at the moment.

I said in a post a month or so back that the sad thing is a lot of long term and in some cases lifelong friendships will suffer because of this mess and I think we are starting to see that now. It's sad that some egos in their rush for success have caused so much damage, if not handled well it could damage the long term fabric of the game.

probably shouldnt take too much out of a pic but the one of Evans in the Hun looks like a guy caught in a lie.

some wont see it this way but i am not adverse to revelling in their misery.

Ive known my fair share of Essendon supporters and most if not the many were happy to see us squirm and suffer.

right back at ua bummers !!!

  On 25/07/2013 at 15:09, belzebub59 said:

probably shouldnt take too much out of a pic but the one of Evans in the Hun looks like a guy caught in a lie.

some wont see it this way but i am not adverse to revelling in their misery.

Ive known my fair share of Essendon supporters and most if not the many were happy to see us squirm and suffer.

right back at ua bummers !!!

Don't get me wrong,I along with every other VFL/AFL supporter take much delight in their plight.Especially after the special 18-24 months the MFC was subjected too.However the whole drugs fiasco is a bullsh1te

It's getting ugly as saga takes its toll

Dons power struggle

Things usually do get ugly after several months of rumour, innuendo and subterfuge. The Hird image has definitely taken a few hits this week but the ructions off the field have to date had little of no adverse effect on Essendon's performances during games and, in fact, the Bombers have been tracking well above expectations to the point where they sit in second place on the ladder. That could well be due to the alleged assurances that were supposedly brokered in order to give the players ultra lenient penalties in comparison to what the rest of the world's sporting fraternity would expect in the same circumstances.

It will be interesting to see how the players go if there's doubt thrown on that proposition or if they now see their coach in a different light as a result of this week's revelations.

  On 25/07/2013 at 20:38, Whispering_Jack said:

It's getting ugly as saga takes its toll

Dons power struggle

Things usually do get ugly after several months of rumour, innuendo and subterfuge. The Hird image has definitely taken a few hits this week but the ructions off the field have to date had little of no adverse effect on Essendon's performances during games and, in fact, the Bombers have been tracking well above expectations to the point where they sit in second place on the ladder. That could well be due to the alleged assurances that were supposedly brokered in order to give the players ultra lenient penalties in comparison to what the rest of the world's sporting fraternity would expect in the same circumstances.

It will be interesting to see how the players go if there's doubt thrown on that proposition or if they now see their coach in a different light as a result of this week's revelations.

It could also be due to advantages gained from alleged substances taken???

ugly ugly ugly

ding ding Round 4

seconds away

some points for consideration .

Who's lying (i think every one in this by various degrees )

Is Hird really taking on Vlad without foundation ?

Big call for Corcoran to back Hird if wrong but he might be and is signing his vocational death warrant if thats the case. This intrigues me

Simply put Vlads notion that because Asada didnt name teams thereby makes silly of him being able to tip off Evans is rubbish . If Vlad had any other info or inkling thrn putting 2+2 together mihht have presented sufficient cause to prompt a cryptic warning to Essendon .

hypothetical . Evans had a heads up to Vlads being briefed, calls emergency meeting . Informs Vlad . Demetriou calls back later with the subtle heads up. Vlad CAN say...oh but Evans called me

The reality is its all dirty murky backroom stuff. Its entirely possible something illegal transpired . In true tv form only forensically investigating the calls will show what likely happed.

Any will for doing this I wonder ?

this far from over

ding ding

It's like Hird has decided he is stuffed as is going to try and bring Vlad down with him. Man I wish I had a comfy chair and popcorn!

  On 25/07/2013 at 13:16, Al said:

I'm living in Sydney and as far as the Cronulla Sharks were told, come clean now and cop 6 months or wait to be found and cop 2 years. I can only assume this was the same for the AFL players. Jobe's confession should be seen as too little too late.

I think a lot of the subterfuge currently being uncovered goes to the idea the AFL and Essendon dont /cant want the majority of Essendon players wiped for even 6 months.

its called PANIC !!! lol

  On 25/07/2013 at 23:32, belzebub59 said:

I think a lot of the subterfuge currently being uncovered goes to the idea the AFL and Essendon dont /cant want the majority of Essendon players wiped for even 6 months.

its called PANIC !!! lol

this story was written late august 2012

a lot of people knew about IT and started the running for cover

I get the feeling without naming anybody that the big fella has already organised his CHAIR and the music is about to stop

unfortunately , asada, accc,wada and other interested parties have experience in bringing their own chairs , so somebody has to miss out and its not gonna be them.so who misses out, mmmmm golden boy and a few cronies maybe

I haven't read everything in this thread, but I'm amazed how many people here choose to believe what's written in the newspapers.

  On 25/07/2013 at 23:32, belzebub59 said:

I think a lot of the subterfuge currently being uncovered goes to the idea the AFL and Essendon dont /cant want the majority of Essendon players wiped for even 6 months.

its called PANIC !!! lol

Exactly B59 and they should be because this is the code they all agreed to. They can not say AFL is doping free anymore because the captain of the Essendon FC has admitted to being injected with AOD. The AFL cant not do anything else other then apply the code. Anything less will mean they end up in court with WADA.

On one hand they lose a substantial part of an AFL list for a period if time or they end up having to defend there actions in court and or being sanctioned as no longer a doping free sport.

Quite frankly $hit happens sometimes and sometimes you have to make a hard choice. But that's what AD and the AFL get paid to do. Either way the media will crucify whichever they choose.

  On 25/07/2013 at 23:58, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I haven't read everything in this thread, but I'm amazed how many people here choose to believe what's written in the newspapers.

you dont have to believe every thing verbatim per se. Some of us even delve into the spaces between the lines etc and decide whats valid and what isnt.

To wholesale dismiss all and any would be just as silly as to believe everything. Some call it being discerning.

try it

  On 25/07/2013 at 23:40, jazza said:

this story was written late august 2012

a lot of people knew about IT and started the running for cover

I get the feeling without naming anybody that the big fella has already organised his CHAIR and the music is about to stop

unfortunately , asada, accc,wada and other interested parties have experience in bringing their own chairs , so somebody has to miss out and its not gonna be them.so who misses out, mmmmm golden boy and a few cronies maybe

On close inspection someone might find their chair a tad rickety also

  On 26/07/2013 at 00:07, belzebub59 said:

you dont have to believe every thing verbatim per se. Some of us even delve into the spaces between the lines etc and decide whats valid and what isnt.

To wholesale dismiss all and any would be just as silly as to believe everything. Some call it being discerning.

try it

OK. In my view the papers have taken hearsay commentary and turned it into unsubstantiated 'fact'. If James Hird told ASADA that he believed Andrew Demetriou 'tipped off' David Evans, then the papers are taking Hird's alleged testimony as fact when it can itself only be hearsay as James Hird wasn't part of the alleged conversation. It is quite conceivable that Hird knew there was a conversation between Demetriou and Evans but mistakenly believed that Demetriou tipped off Evans because of subsequent events. It's also possible that Demetriou didn't tip off Evans but Evans, with his knowledge of what had been happening at Essendon, realised that his club was the one (or one of a number) in trouble, even if Demetriou didn't know or didn't say.

The papers draw long bows and as far as I can tell, no-one has confirmed what they've written. Conversely, I believe Demetriou, Evans, Hird and the ACC have all denied that Demetriou tipped off Evans.

And perhaps a lawyer can comment (I'm not one), but I suspect that Victoria's watered down defamation laws (which I believe limit payouts) reduce the financial risk to the media so they may be less concerned about reporting facts. (Which may also be behind the lack of attention in reporting the tanking stories, too.)

  On 25/07/2013 at 23:58, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I haven't read everything in this thread, but I'm amazed how many people here choose to believe what's written in the newspapers.

yep

When they were writing about us tanking we were saying they were a pack of cretins who knew little and were inventing stories to fill space.

Now a lot on here think they are the fountain of all knowledge and every story is God's truth.

Conversion on the road to Damascus!

  On 26/07/2013 at 00:24, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

OK. In my view the papers have taken hearsay commentary and turned it into unsubstantiated 'fact'. If James Hird told ASADA that he believed Andrew Demetriou 'tipped off' David Evans, then the papers are taking Hird's alleged testimony as fact when it can itself only be hearsay as James Hird wasn't part of the alleged conversation. It is quite conceivable that Hird knew there was a conversation between Demetriou and Evans but mistakenly believed that Demetriou tipped off Evans because of subsequent events. It's also possible that Demetriou didn't tip off Evans but Evans, with his knowledge of what had been happening at Essendon, realised that his club was the one (or one of a number) in trouble, even if Demetriou didn't know or didn't say.

The papers draw long bows and as far as I can tell, no-one has confirmed what they've written. Conversely, I believe Demetriou, Evans, Hird and the ACC have all denied that Demetriou tipped off Evans.

And perhaps a lawyer can comment (I'm not one), but I suspect that Victoria's watered down defamation laws (which I believe limit payouts) reduce the financial risk to the media so they may be less concerned about reporting facts. (Which may also be behind the lack of attention in reporting the tanking stories, too.)

Thank God someones sees things in this light.

Thank you LDC.

There's nothing particularly new in the papers for me, my opinion all along has been that Essendon had information that led to them predating the ACC press conference. Whether it came from AD or not it's a fair chance he gave enough information for them to draw their own conclusion.

Funnily enough I was telling a couple of mates this in separate conversations the day before it blew up in the media so my view is not coloured by the reporting but it may be by my preconceptions that I don't trust Hird, Evans or the Essendon FC. Their press conference always looked a bit suspect to me.

I have also believed there were no rogue elements involved at the club and the responsible people knew what was happening and endorsed it but lets wait and see what comes of the ASADA investigation. Personally I think the club and players are in trouble.

"Flying High" is such a good movie.

This is the new sequel. Should be an HBO Series!!