mate if you were working for a MERGER,,,then we shall desist talkng RIGHT NOW !!

I was 11 at the time, mate.

And don't sow what you don't know.

The MFC had loyal Demons working for the merger and they were working to fark over the Hawks.

They thought they were doing the best thing for the MFC.

It has been 17 years and when do we understand and forgive?

WHEN?

"The MFC members voted for the merger".

I am sick to death of this statement being made in the media. It is used to denigrate the club and members.

The truth is that many MFC members were denied a vote on the issue, many were refused entry to the meeting and the vote, if one can call it that, was carried by proxy votes, kept in a safe, for a time they were needed to stack a vote.

The people who provided thoses proxies, had absolutely no idea they would be used in a merger vote. They were obtained from people who were given free memberships and told to sign over proxies.

To call that a proper vote, on the most contentious issue in the club's history, is nothing short of a disgrace and an insult to the members of the club at the time.

I wish someone would make this perfectly clear to the media and get this stopped once and for all. We should not allow this denigration to continue.

Big deal. It wasn't a merger in any case, It was a takeover of hawthorn and would have been fantastic for Melbourne. $6m cash, pick of the players, training facilities, support of the AFL etc etc

For what?? For losing the Demon name?

We have had numerous names through the years so in reality this would have been nothing.

Who cares what the media say. We get pilloried constantly for a range of things. The biggest issue for me is crowd support. They constantly refere to our low support numbers or being on welfare from the AFL yet refuse to look at the stadium deals an, TV deals and rigged fixture. The media a moronic imbeciles.

What I have found in the last 12 months is the less I read the happier I am.

WHEN?

When we have on field success

I suspect our leaders at the time had faith in the AFL hierarchy and their vision

Their guidance is perhaps not dissimilar to that of a great country which installs a regime or dictator and then five years later reverses policy and ends up fighting against the same

Or perhaps they are like those who meddle in genetic engineering

U have two have faith that they know what they are doing and the probability is approximately 62%

I don't know enough about the facts you talk of Redleg re the proxy vote, but IMO I think you should call into SEN when Dermie is on and put him on the spot re this issue, he would if the shoe were on the other foot

Maybe I will.

Don't think that because I am young I didn't have family in that sh!tfight.

I had family and friends working for the merger for the club - how about that?

I am supposed to see them as traitors?

Mike Sheahan wrote a couple years back that the MFC tried to "eat the HFC whole." That's what these pro-merger Demons were trying to do, they were as nefarious as you would hope them to be. They wanted "Crawford, Waverley, 10k members and be back to the Demons in 5 years" - that is a direct quote.

I don't need you to tell me whether I have to see anyone in a different light because of what happened so long ago.

Myth has been wrapped up in truth and we are stuck in the history again.

In a week where Demonland has embraced the future without being so wrapped in its glorious past, we should be able to move on from our inglorious past.

RP my intent on this is not to go back and have a go at people who held certain views. As you say that is past and buried.

My beef is with the lie that keeps being perpetuated and thrown at us, that we in fact voted for the merger and deserve virtually to not exist.

There was never a legal, proper vote, held by the members of the MFC. Therefore a rigged result is not proof of what the MFC members did, wanted or decided.

To keep repeating it indefinitely, is a disgrace and a stain on the members and the club.

I blame Schwab, Don, and 186, I know you're with me WYL...

Glad you now see what inaction after 186 has done Stuie.

Glad you now see what inaction after 186 has done Stuie.

Yeah who would have thought 186 caused us to nearly merge... rah rah rah

"The MFC members voted for the merger".

I am sick to death of this statement being made in the media. It is used to denigrate the club and members.

The truth is that many MFC members were denied a vote on the issue, many were refused entry to the meeting and the vote, if one can call it that, was carried by proxy votes, kept in a safe, for a time they were needed to stack a vote.

The people who provided thoses proxies, had absolutely no idea they would be used in a merger vote. They were obtained from people who were given free memberships and told to sign over proxies.

To call that a proper vote, on the most contentious issue in the club's history, is nothing short of a disgrace and an insult to the members of the club at the time.

I wish someone would make this perfectly clear to the media and get this stopped once and for all. We should not allow this denigration to continue.

Red, in the end many members (at least those in favour of the no-merger alternative) were IMO either duped, deceived and/or abandoned.

Duped by a President that forgot to seek the members' tacit approval before proceeding.

Deceived by connections within (and without) the Board (eg., Bill Guest) who used questionable methods to obtain proxies from non demon supporters under duress. He was even filmed doing so at his workplace and was quite happy to boast of his efforts at the time.

Abandoned by most past players of the club who met at Jolimont HQ one night at the request of the late Ian Ridley, and signed off on giving their tacit approval to a merger with the Hawks. Yes, a few select players from this group changed their mind in the last week (or in some cases on the day of the vote or a few days out from the vote) ie., Barassi/Tunbridge/Wells. However in reality, those members/supporters against the merger were, in the main, abandoned by past players and greats of the club in favour of merging. Regardless of the voting shinanigans on the night at Dallas Brooks, unfortunately this is a stain that can never be reversed or re written from our history.

However it should be noted that 2 past players stood tall for the club and vehemently rejected the merger. Brian Dixon and Alan Johnson. I'm not sure where Alan finished up but he was there at the beginning with Brian in the early formative days of the "alternative" push. So we can at least say we (as in the no merger alternative group) were not completely abandoned. Obviously Brian and others within the alternative then managed to garner the support of Diamond Joe. And so history was made.

The one positive that i take from it all, is that it was only a 53% vote (approx 440 votes i believe) in favour of the merger with the pro merger team tipping the scales (from all reliable reports) with the injection of up to 1,000 dodgy proxies (taken out of the vault as you say). Yes there were pro merger last minute membership votes in there as well from all reports so it's hard to know who won the battle with last minute votes etc. But my understanding of the alternative "magic" votes were that they were mostly from existing "real" members who showed how passionate they were about the club by dipping into their pockets to purchase extra memberships through family and friends who were Melbourne devotees but not necessarily members at the time. Much like present day Carlton supporters!

What i do know is there's no way any club or it's supporters/opposing members would have accepted, in any way whatsoever, such a narrow margin regardless of how it was achieved, nor begrudgingly moved forward with the planned merger.

The one major positive from this unfortunate and ill considered proposal/period was that the club has now changed its constitution so that a merger can only take place if 75% of members vote in favour.

Sadly we had to go through much pain, much expense and excessive hand wringing/nashing of teeth to achieve what should have been written into the constitution 16 years earlier when separating from the MCC as a public company in 1980.

In general, this is a painful ugly period of our history and i agree, very much misrepresented by what is mostly an ill informed, poorly researched bunch of footy journos who love to stick the boots into us whenever they get the chance or there's a slow AFL news day.

Edited June 22, 201312 yr by Rusty Nails

Yes this really bugs me and has affected big time the way we are viewed. I worked hard on the no merger campaign as others on this site did. Trust me it would have been taken to court over the dodgy members added and our lack of access to lists etc. We were ready and funded to go. We would not have let it happen. It suits the media and other clubs to continue the story.

Carn Dees. Never Give Up

Red, in the end many members (at least those in favour of the no-merger alternative) were IMO either duped, deceived and/or abandoned.

Duped by a President that forgot to seek the members' tacit approval before proceeding.

Deceived by connections within (and without) the Board (eg., Bill Guest) who used questionable methods to obtain proxies from non demon supporters under duress. He was even filmed doing so at his workplace and was quite happy to boast of his efforts at the time.

Abandoned by most past players of the club who met at Jolimont HQ one night at the request of the late Ian Ridley, and signed off on giving their tacit approval to a merger with the Hawks. Yes, a few select players from this group changed their mind in the last week (or in some cases on the day of the vote or a few days out from the vote) ie., Barassi/Tunbridge/Wells. However in reality, those members/supporters against the merger were, in the main, abandoned by past players and greats of the club in favour of merging. Regardless of the voting shinanigans on the night at Dallas Brooks, unfortunately this is a stain that can never be reversed or re written from our history.

However it should be noted that 2 past players stood tall for the club and vehemently rejected the merger. Brian Dixon and Alan Johnson. I'm not sure where Alan finished up but he was there at the beginning with Brian in the early formative days of the "alternative" push. So we can at least say we (as in the no merger alternative group) were not completely abandoned. Obviously Brian and others within the alternative then managed to garner the support of Diamond Joe. And so history was made.

The one positive that i take from it all, is that it was only a 53% vote (approx 440 votes i believe) in favour of the merger with the pro merger team tipping the scales (from all reliable reports) with the injection of up to 1,000 dodgy proxies (taken out of the vault as you say). Yes there were pro merger last minute membership votes in there as well from all reports so it's hard to know who won the battle with last minute votes etc. But my understanding of the alternative "magic" votes were that they were mostly from existing "real" members who showed how passionate they were about the club by dipping into their pockets to purchase extra memberships through family and friends who were Melbourne devotees but not necessarily members at the time. Much like present day Carlton supporters!

What i do know is there's no way any club or it's supporters/opposing members would have accepted, in any way whatsoever, such a narrow margin regardless of how it was achieved, nor begrudgingly moved forward with the planned merger.

The one major positive from this unfortunate and ill considered proposal/period was that the club has now changed its constitution so that a merger can only take place if 75% of members vote in favour.

Sadly we had to go through much pain, much expense and excessive hand wringing/nashing of teeth to achieve what should have been written into the constitution 16 years earlier when separating from the MCC as a public company in 1980.

In general, this is a painful ugly period of our history and i agree, very much misrepresented by what is mostly an ill informed, poorly researched bunch of footy journos who love to stick the boots into us whenever they get the chance or there's a slow AFL news day.

Good post Rusty.

Yes this really bugs me and has affected big time the way we are viewed. I worked hard on the no merger campaign as others on this site did. Trust me it would have been taken to court over the dodgy members added and our lack of access to lists etc. We were ready and funded to go. We would not have let it happen. It suits the media and other clubs to continue the story.

Carn Dees. Never Give Up

That is my understanding of the possible Court challenge also. I was told that it would succeed in record time once it got into a Court room.

I just believe that now we are trying to turn this club on its head and get things done properly. Part of that should involve expunging for all time the hurtful and incorrect notion that the members of the MFC abandoned their history and voted to merge their club.

They didn't.

Build a bridge guys....

Build a bridge guys....

Will the bridge get us to the promised land?

LOL

I find it interesting that so many contributors are complaining about how the Club has been portrayed in the mainstream media by way of false reporting such as how the Club was fined for tanking. The MSM will never allow the facts to get in the way of a good story. Unfortunately that doesn't just apply to football coverage. It extends to political coverage as well. Repeat a lie often enough and the majority will think it's the truth. I also think that a large section of the football media believe they are the story.

RP my intent on this is not to go back and have a go at people who held certain views. As you say that is past and buried.

My beef is with the lie that keeps being perpetuated and thrown at us, that we in fact voted for the merger and deserve virtually to not exist.

There was never a legal, proper vote, held by the members of the MFC. Therefore a rigged result is not proof of what the MFC members did, wanted or decided.

To keep repeating it indefinitely, is a disgrace and a stain on the members and the club.

I understand and I am frustrated about how the media remember that time - but for slightly different reasons.

Unfortunately, you can't change hard perception of others that simply want to look down on you. And that's what it is - we 'voted' to end ourselves.

I know it is BS because we actually tried to eat Hawthorn like a snake and you know it because of some subterfuge, deliberate confusion, and dirty tactics.

But does it matter anymore?

It only matters if we let it - some still harbour ill-feeling towards those in the pro-merger camp. That is something that is getting in the way of the club moving forward.

We can't change media perception but we can move on internally and we just have to.

Edited June 23, 201312 yr by rpfc

Of course we move on but I will not let people tell me that rank and file supporters voted to merge. That would be gutless and most Dee supporters have not given up on our club. In fact I think our membership numbers are remarkable for a club that has had such a tough time over the last few years. Carn Dees Never Give Up

Big deal. It wasn't a merger in any case, It was a takeover of hawthorn and would have been fantastic for Melbourne. $6m cash, pick of the players, training facilities, support of the AFL etc etc

Kind of sounds like what we are getting now....and we didnt even have to merge

Edited June 23, 201312 yr by Bring Back Barassi

Its OK Red...some of us will never forget that day,

The truth is remembered and understood...if not by the masses.

But Redleg is right, people should stick up for the club and tell people, "No, that's not right, get your facts right".

Each time someone says what Dermie says, more and more, people believe it actually happened. When as Redleg points out, it didn't.

Here we go again.

1. I wont forget.

2. I wont forgive the people who wanted to take my club away from me and become hawks.

3 As I have said before on this subject, I was there and asked whats his name a question from the floor, the first question of the night .

4 I got there early before 6 and we were subjected to over and hour of club crap on the screen. ALL PRO MERGER. In all that time do you know what they didn't play , Yep you got it right they never once played not ONCE the club song. I suppose if you are a traitor you don't want to be reminded of what you are betraying.

5 Where does this crap about swallowing hawthorn come from?

6 Look no further than the make up of the NEW board, 7 hawthorn members 5 MFC members 2 mcc members and the pres nominated by the mcc with hawthorn having a veto on the selection. No say by the MFC on the election of the Melbourne Hawks Pres. ALL 15 members have full voting rights. DO THE SUMS we were getting gobbled up not them.

7 I still have all the papers sent to members by both sides [ I collect throwaway items like that, I even have 2 proxy forms where you can only give your proxy to whats his name.

Here we go again.

1. I wont forget.

2. I wont forgive the people who wanted to take my club away from me and become hawks.

3 As I have said before on this subject, I was there and asked whats his name a question from the floor, the first question of the night .

4 I got there early before 6 and we were subjected to over and hour of club crap on the screen. ALL PRO MERGER. In all that time do you know what they didn't play , Yep you got it right they never once played not ONCE the club song. I suppose if you are a traitor you don't want to be reminded of what you are betraying.

5 Where does this crap about swallowing hawthorn come from?

6 Look no further than the make up of the NEW board, 7 hawthorn members 5 MFC members 2 mcc members and the pres nominated by the mcc with hawthorn having a veto on the selection. No say by the MFC on the election of the Melbourne Hawks Pres. ALL 15 members have full voting rights. DO THE SUMS we were getting gobbled up not them.

7 I still have all the papers sent to members by both sides [ I collect throwaway items like that, I even have 2 proxy forms where you can only give your proxy to whats his name.

Are you talking about Ian Ridley?

Well, that's a shame ex52k2.

We remain a fractured club. Crippled by emotion and chained to memory and ill-feeling on a subject consigned to history.

Perhaps, jnrmac is right, we will only forgive and forget when we start winning.

Perhaps in our current predicament all we have is the stirred passion of moments like this.

Oh, and the 'swallowing' of Hawthorn was told to me personally by those who wrote those clauses you just posted - using the MCC as a proxy MFC. A hardly independent arbiter of the Hawks downfall.

But it is irrelevant now, just as it was a day after that day and has been for 17 years.

Let it go.

Ian Ridley has gone, but many Demons remain who thought they were doing the best thing by the club.

When do you forgive them?

Just ask don scott who was taking over who, he will tell u, he was opposed to the merger because he beveled, that the dees where taking over the hawks

What i can never understand is why Melbourne people thought it was in our best interest to merge/take over...i will never understand that. I was horrified at the idea.

Still am.

Edited June 24, 201312 yr by why you little

A big factor behind the defeat of the Merger IMO believe it or not was Eddie Mcguire. Whilst the MFC administration were sneakily trying to get the merger plans that far advanced that there would be no time to mount any opposition,Eddie actually broke the news on the Footy Show.

Whatever you make think of Eddie he has directly and indirectly done some good things for our football club.

Here is something worth watching. Go the Dees!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxHVqpxQwtQ

What i can never understand is why Melbourne people thought it was in our best interest to merge/take over...i will never understand that. I was horrified at the idea.

Still am.

And you don't have to understand. And you can be horrified.

And you can still forgive those Melbourne people and move on.