Now that Bartram has retired, who would you add/remove from our leadership group?

I would certainly leave our captains as they are and let then develop further. I would probably leave the group as it is but (1) I'm not convinced that Jamar is a leader and (2) maybe it's time to put some responsibility on another Jack (Watts)

is there a max we can have in our leadership group? (would have voted none out if it was an option)

I wouldn't mind seeing Chris Dawes added to the group, perhaps at the expense of Garland who really needs to knuckle down and have a good 2013. He was pretty ordinary this season.

  On 14/11/2012 at 05:56, red and blue forever said:

is there a max we can have in our leadership group? (would have voted none out if it was an option)

good call

Ive added the "none" option

I've changed my vote to none out. How about bringing back Alistair Nicholson too so we can make him and Carroll co-captains?

Out: Garland

In: Davey - most will disagree, perhaps even on the merits that he may not be best 22, but whilst fitness and form have waned he is still very much a leader at the club. I think a recall would do him and the youngsters coming through a lot of good.

Possible Out: Jamar

Possible In: Watts - has leadership potential and this is likely to be the year he becomes fully grounded as an AFL footballer.

We have just lost a backman from the leadership group.

The majority seem to want to get rid of another.

That leaves just 1 ---- Frawley.

I reckon give Tommy McD a crack, It's very important in his overall improvement.

  On 14/11/2012 at 06:43, P_Man said:

Out: Garland

In: Davey - most will disagree, perhaps even on the merits that he may not be best 22, but whilst fitness and form have waned he is still very much a leader at the club. I think a recall would do him and the youngsters coming through a lot of good.

Possible Out: Jamar

Possible In: Watts - has leadership potential and this is likely to be the year he becomes fully grounded as an AFL footballer.

Your kidding right ??

  On 14/11/2012 at 07:22, do it 4 robbie said:

Your kidding right ??

*You're

No, I appreciate it's left field and might attract a few dead head responses such as yours.

  On 14/11/2012 at 06:43, P_Man said:

Out: Garland

In: Davey - most will disagree, perhaps even on the merits that he may not be best 22, but whilst fitness and form have waned he is still very much a leader at the club. I think a recall would do him and the youngsters coming through a lot of good.

Possible Out: Jamar

Possible In: Watts - has leadership potential and this is likely to be the year he becomes fully grounded as an AFL footballer.

No really, you're kidding right?

Chris Dawes

wasn't Barty in the LG?

so 1, he will need to be replaced and personally i think listening to dawes today he should be a straight swap

IN : Dawes and Rodan

OUT :Garland and Bartram

While I think we are in a position to judge players' football ability as most of us watch a lot of footy, personally I find it almost impossible to talk about who should be in leadership groups as it is probably 10% football and 90% application, work ethic, and other traits that are only revealed behind closed doors at the club.

After that disclaimer, I will say:

OUT: Bartram (retired), Garland (very frustrating player and too often looks stoned)

IN: maybe 1 or 2 of the new guys who have proven experience like Byrnes and Dawes. Can;t think of any of last year's group who deserve a promotion.

put IN the 7 or so players who get voted in.

the end.

I agree with the Dawes and Rodan - we need guys with experience to help show the way, and help shoulder the responsibility

Get rid of a few, add none. Make it a real tough group to get into.

  On 14/11/2012 at 08:36, NoMoreMrNiceGuy said:

No really, you're kidding right?

Any chance of a mature response rather than being a smarmy git?

If anything, this exercise shows how we are lacking for leaders. Viney is almost a given in a few years, but right now outside of the top 4 or 5 there are no obvious candidates.

I'm a big believer in second chances and it could be a great way for him to finish his career with an expression of faith from the playing group and coaches. People are suggesting Rodan and no-one bats an eyelid. At this stage in their careers I fail to see alot of difference between the two except Davey knows the club inside out and is still a respected figure, though obviously not by all the supporters. He's had a bad trot with injuries, and whilst the engine isn't what it used to be, I still believe he has alot to contribute as a senior player at this club.

It's obviously unlikely as he may not even nominate himself, but I'd be happy to see him given the title of leader once more. I couldn't care less if I'm the only one who feels that way.

  On 14/11/2012 at 06:43, P_Man said:

Out: Garland

In: Davey - most will disagree, perhaps even on the merits that he may not be best 22, but whilst fitness and form have waned he is still very much a leader at the club. I think a recall would do him and the youngsters coming through a lot of good.

Possible Out: Jamar

Possible In: Watts - has leadership potential and this is likely to be the year he becomes fully grounded as an AFL footballer.

EH!?

edit.

Sorry just read that you called someone a git for a similar response so i will explain myself.

You can be a big believer in second chances and feel bad for players with injuries, but the way to make a strong leadership group is to make the players work hard to get in... like after we've seen some work done in preseason, not before hand.

having said that the players pick the leadership group under the guide of the coaching staff so it is essentially an irrelevant discussion.

for the record i disagree with both of your suggestions, we have just spent the trade period and free agency trying to get rid of giving people something on potential, and now you want to just throw that away? it would be a step backwards as far as i'm concerned

  On 14/11/2012 at 13:50, Deelirium said:

EH!?

edit.

Sorry just read that you called someone a git for a similar response so i will explain myself.

You can be a big believer in second chances and feel bad for players with injuries, but the way to make a strong leadership group is to make the players work hard to get in... like after we've seen some work done in preseason, not before hand.

having said that the players pick the leadership group under the guide of the coaching staff so it is essentially an irrelevant discussion.

for the record i disagree with both of your suggestions, we have just spent the trade period and free agency trying to get rid of giving people something on potential, and now you want to just throw that away? it would be a step backwards as far as i'm concerned

Appreciate the response and you raise valid points. It is a difficult thing to judge being on the outer from preseason training where judgements will be made such as Clark last season, and I absolutely agree that inclusion in the leadership group should be largely based on hard work. Any player who gets the nod will need to have proven themselves in that regard.

I'm not married to the inclusion of Watts as I still think he has a fair bit to prove, but there are certain players that you can see relishing in an official leadership role and I think Watts fits into that category. Personally I think this will be a very big year for him.

I plead guilty to there being a bit of sentimental value attached to my suggestion of Davey getting a recall, but I stand by my reasoning. It is a very young leadership group all things considered, and I wouldn't see the inclusion of Davey as a backward step so much as having another older head to guide the young leaders coming through. I'm sure he does this anyway, without having the label.

Once again I'd suggest that nominating Dawes and Rodan who literally have just set foot into the club, whilst Davey doesn't even get a look in, is a little bit insulting to someone who has been a long time servant. Clark was a standout talent. I'd strongly suggest Dawes and Rodan aren't at his level.

There is a distasteful tendency among supporters to want to sweep the senior players from a couple of years ago under the rug. I don't abide by that. There is a good reason someone as ruthless as Neeld has kept Davey around. Yes he has been poor by his standards of late, but a bit of respect wouldn't go astray.

As I said I doubt there's any chance of it happening.

In Watts and McDonald but also feel Davey should be there subject to him making our top 22. No use having leaders running around in the VFL!

Ultimately however it is the players themselves that determine the leadership group and i suspect that they can do that well despite all the advice from the armchair experts in this Forum (no matter how many posts individual people have made). Let us see who the players want as their leaders.

  On 14/11/2012 at 14:21, P_Man said:

There is a distasteful tendency among supporters to want to sweep the senior players from a couple of years ago under the rug. I don't abide by that. There is a good reason someone as ruthless as Neeld has kept Davey around. Yes he has been poor by his standards of late, but a bit of respect wouldn't go astray.

On the contrary, supporters want to see blokes who perform consistently and die for the jumper week-in week-out in the leadership group. Not perennial non-performers, as Davey has been not "of late" as you put it but for the better part of the past three years.

It's a ridiculous suggestion and fully deserving of any flippant reply you get.

Unfortunately, now Barty is out, I reckon we put Shannon Byrnes in the leadership group.

I would keep Barty in. Love the guy, don't let him be lost to the club. Can you retire and remain in the leadership group? Bugger it make him captain. Sorry, just gunna miss my mate Barty.

Dawes seems to really want it, he will earn their respect at the training camp and I would expect he will be in.

Love that by circumstance Neeld has created a successful culture before we have won a 2013 game!