Fan has raised a good point - love to hate her but hate to not have her to hate.

So... This is what stockholm syndrome feels like

This article in today's Herald Sun http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl/tank-probe-dozen-witness-statements-could-cook-careers/story-e6frepf6-1226547335584'>Tank probe: Dozen witness statements could cook careers in Melbourne investigation at least proves that Fan is half right in that Wilson is streets ahead of the competition. As has been pointed out in the AFL Investigation thread, Jay Clark is merely mimicking what passed for "news" two months ago.

But there are no leaks of any smoking guns in the form of incriminating emails or anything else which suggests either that Vlad has successfully put an end to the leaks or that no smoking gun exists.

Meanwhile, Fairfax Media seems to have shut down on the issue since Wilson went on leave, perhaps an indication that their parlous financial situation precludes them from employing real reporters in her absence?

This article in today's Herald Sun Tank probe: Dozen witness statements could cook careers in Melbourne investigation at least proves that Fan is half right in that Wilson is streets ahead of the competition. As has been pointed out in the AFL Investigation thread, Jay Clark is merely mimicking what passed for "news" two months ago.

But there are no leaks of any smoking guns in the form of incriminating emails or anything else which suggests either that Vlad has successfully put an end to the leaks or that no smoking gun exists.

Meanwhile, Fairfax Media seems to have shut down on the issue since Wilson went on leave, perhaps an indication that their parlous financial situation precludes them from employing real reporters in her absence?

you seem to have mellowed

I think it is time to add Jay Clark to our list of #$%*s who should be blackballed by our club

let 'em eat cake

you seem to have mellowed

Not one bit.

What I'm saying is that in relative terms, Wilson is still well ahead of Clark. That doesn't make her any less nasty a piece of work than she is (or her newspaper).

Well I know I'm not as smart as most of you but I learned a bit from Jay's article (in as much as you can put any faith in it).

Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management".

Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties.

Without intending to open old debates it's why I like Caro. Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good because of the quality of her contacts. That she clearly hates our club and Schwab in particular isn't going to influence the AFL.

The "market" is very rarely wrong, and if fairly reliable sources like Deegirl and others have heard that Schwab, Connolly and Bailey are in trouble I'd tend to believe it. Interestingly this is what Caro said about 2 months before most.

I don't know when she is going to return but I'm backing a fairly detailed article containing information (in which I'm interested) and editorial comment which I'm not going to like.

Oh, and DC, are we to ban any journo who puts into print anything relating to tanking and our club? How the hell will we know what's going on?

Oh, and DC, are we to ban any journo who puts into print anything relating to tanking and our club? How the hell will we know what's going on?

no not at all. only those who 'report' issues with an agenda

those who distort facts, are unbalanced in reporting, misrepresent info, call prematurely for conclusions and retribution and use anti dee inflammatory rhetoric

i think even you can understand that

Well I know I'm not as smart as most of you but I learned a bit from Jay's article (in as much as you can put any faith in it).

Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management".

There was a meeting at Schwab's house.

Not only is that unsurprising, but it is all we know about it.

That "list management" was discussed as it was basically Bailey's job, is also unsurprising.

That JC lacks any further detail shows that he hasn't a clue what was discussed.

Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties.

Been reading / hearing this for weeks now - where have you been?

Well I know I'm not as smart as most of you but I learned a bit from Jay's article (in as much as you can put any faith in it).

Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management".

Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties.

Without intending to open old debates it's why I like Caro. Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good because of the quality of her contacts. That she clearly hates our club and Schwab in particular isn't going to influence the AFL.

The "market" is very rarely wrong, and if fairly reliable sources like Deegirl and others have heard that Schwab, Connolly and Bailey are in trouble I'd tend to believe it. Interestingly this is what Caro said about 2 months before most.

I don't know when she is going to return but I'm backing a fairly detailed article containing information (in which I'm interested) and editorial comment which I'm not going to like.

Oh, and DC, are we to ban any journo who puts into print anything relating to tanking and our club? How the hell will we know what's going on?

If true which one spilled the beans. I guess it goes to what my father always told me that once 2 people know it is no longer a secret.

Well I know I'm not as smart as most of you but I learned a bit from Jay's article (in as much as you can put any faith in it).

Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management".

Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties.

Without intending to open old debates it's why I like Caro. Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good because of the quality of her contacts. That she clearly hates our club and Schwab in particular isn't going to influence the AFL.

The "market" is very rarely wrong, and if fairly reliable sources like Deegirl and others have heard that Schwab, Connolly and Bailey are in trouble I'd tend to believe it. Interestingly this is what Caro said about 2 months before most.

I don't know when she is going to return but I'm backing a fairly detailed article containing information (in which I'm interested) and editorial comment which I'm not going to like.

Oh, and DC, are we to ban any journo who puts into print anything relating to tanking and our club? How the hell will we know what's going on?

so Bailey and Schwab had dinner

That's it is it?

Wow.

There was a meeting at Schwab's house.

Not only is that unsurprising, but it is all we know about it.

That "list management" was discussed as it was basically Bailey's job, is also unsurprising.

That JC lacks any further detail shows that he hasn't a clue what was discussed.

Been reading / hearing this for weeks now - where have you been?

Very fair comments

( Of course there is a very real chance that Caro has bugged Schwab's house)

Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management".

Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties.

Without intending to open old debates it's why I like Caro. Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good because of the quality of her contacts. That she clearly hates our club and Schwab in particular isn't going to influence the AFL.

IMO they are also using these article to prepare the footy public that the club may not be penalised but individuals will be.

To ready the bloodthirsty public for a different outcome.

A sort of sidestep.

The witchhunt maybe seems to have turned, looking for a softer target, or targets.

Well I know I'm not as smart as most of you but I learned a bit from Jay's article (in as much as you can put any faith in it).

Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management".

Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties.

Without intending to open old debates it's why I like Caro. Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good because of the quality of her contacts. That she clearly hates our club and Schwab in particular isn't going to influence the AFL.

The "market" is very rarely wrong, and if fairly reliable sources like Deegirl and others have heard that Schwab, Connolly and Bailey are in trouble I'd tend to believe it. Interestingly this is what Caro said about 2 months before most.

I don't know when she is going to return but I'm backing a fairly detailed article containing information (in which I'm interested) and editorial comment which I'm not going to like.

Oh, and DC, are we to ban any journo who puts into print anything relating to tanking and our club? How the hell will we know what's going on?

Interesting but you haven't enlightened us about the obviously flawed information Wilson has provided over the journey (aside from the obvious incorrect dates, times and player information which her editors rather shabbily corrected without the expected notes as to why the information was edited). I mean the disputed versions of what constituted the "vault", why those meetings were called and why others have described as 30 second asides what Wilson stated were fundamental to the objectives of the supposedly sinister "vault". The fact is that we've all been had, you included.

And I also checked with Tom Waterhouse to see if there was a "market" only to discover that like a great deal else in this sorry scenario, even the market is "smoke and mirrors" - it doesn't exist.

That is not to say that the AFL is not of a mind to back its investigative team and lay charges. However, it hasn't done so to date but rather, it opted for a strange process in that it put the "evidence" it has before the MFC in the hope of nutting out a plea bargain.

That to me is indicative of a lot of things but the accuracy of Wilson's editorial diatribe isn't one of them. If Wilson was as good as you think then she would, in that piece, have enlightened her readers of what charges specifically, the club was about to face.

Neither she nor Clark today, have done that. Perhaps that's because the AFL are still working on confecting a new offence that the club might be charged with if it decides to go that way after reading Ray Finkelstein's submission.

As far as I'm concerned, the tanking issue was most accurately distilled in the work not of Caroline Wilson or Jay Clark but by an obscure writer of football tales named Franz Kafka in The Trial. Heavy going but more accurate on the subject matter and a very worthwhile read.

Er ... before anyone here rushes out to your favourite bookshop (if it still exists) or to whoever supplies what was once known as books through kindle to purchase The Trial in the hope that it's on par with A salute to the great McCarthy, I suggest you hold your horses. Kafka's a bit of an acquired taste - you need to be seen carrying it around a university campus for at least two semesters before you start on page 1.

Interesting but you haven't enlightened us about the obviously flawed information Wilson has provided over the journey (aside from the obvious incorrect dates, times and player information which her editors rather shabbily corrected without the expected notes as to why the information was edited). I mean the disputed versions of what constituted the "vault", why those meetings were called and why others have described as 30 second asides what Wilson stated were fundamental to the objectives of the supposedly sinister "vault". The fact is that we've all been had, you included.

And I also checked with Tom Waterhouse to see if there was a "market" only to discover that like a great deal else in this sorry scenario, even the market is "smoke and mirrors" - it doesn't exist.

That is not to say that the AFL is not of a mind to back its investigative team and lay charges. However, it hasn't done so to date but rather, it opted for a strange process in that it put the "evidence" it has before the MFC in the hope of nutting out a plea bargain.

That to me is indicative of a lot of things but the accuracy of Wilson's editorial diatribe isn't one of them. If Wilson was as good as you think then she would, in that piece, have enlightened her readers of what charges specifically, the club was about to face.

Neither she nor Clark today, have done that. Perhaps that's because the AFL are still working on confecting a new offence that the club might be charged with if it decides to go that way after reading Ray Finkelstein's submission.

As far as I'm concerned, the tanking issue was most accurately distilled in the work not of Caroline Wilson or Jay Clark but by an obscure writer of football tales named Franz Kafka in The Trial. Heavy going but more accurate on the subject matter and a very worthwhile read.

Not all of us, if anyone can even be bothered checking.

I wonder if like " the Trial" there is no authentic end just one cobbled together to placate !

Many similarities though lol

"TANKER MORE-ANT"

Facing extinction in the face of the AFLS Bores,

An Australian platoon is forced to "take no prisoners" in the heat of combat in which it is hopelessly outgunned.

The resulting court martial is a mixture of rough justice and administrative disaster in which the Aussie Officers are crucified to appease a rabid news readership.

An iconic Aussie tale of a battling unit fighting imperial ineptitude.

Starring Bryan Brown-Nose (Adrian Anderson)

Peter Sellers as Inspector Haddad

and Jackie (Fairy -Tale) Weaver as Kero Wilson

This could be huge -if only it wasn't so far fetched.

As far as I'm concerned, the tanking issue was most accurately distilled in the work not of Caroline Wilson or Jay Clark but by an obscure writer of football tales named Franz Kafka in The Trial. Heavy going but more accurate on the subject matter and a very worthwhile read.

Is that the one where Achilles Jones, the star recruit from the bush, is brought up before the tribunal but they won't tell him what he's charged with?

At the risk of being branded a Wilson-lover, I don't like your analogy.

You are seeing this as a Stalinist scenario -- secretive brutality.

I see it more along the lines of '80s Romania, or maybe '70s Uganda, where unstable buffoons ran the show and did so on personal whims which could change at any moment.

Wilson is like a black market businessman making good from the scraps created by the chaos.

(I learned all this background material while carrying around "The Trial" for two semesters.)

That to me is indicative of a lot of things but the accuracy of Wilson's editorial diatribe isn't one of them. If Wilson was as good as you think then she would, in that piece, have enlightened her readers of what charges specifically, the club was about to face.

She wrote "the fix" in the notorious article - she said we match-fixed and that Connolly and Schwab would be sacked.

Interesting no mention of hard evidence in Clark's article.

Is that the one where Achilles Jones, the star recruit from the bush, is brought up before the tribunal but they won't tell him what he's charged with?

At the risk of being branded a Wilson-lover, I don't like your analogy.

You are seeing this as a Stalinist scenario -- secretive brutality.

I see it more along the lines of '80s Romania, or maybe '70s Uganda, where unstable buffoons ran the show and did so on personal whims which could change at any moment.

Wilson is like a black market businessman making good from the scraps created by the chaos.

(I learned all this background material while carrying around "The Trial" for two semesters.)

Although you do raise some interesting comparisons, I'll back my analogy against yours because in the first instance Kafka wrote The Trial well before Stalin came to power and certainly at a time when Nicolae Ceaușescu and Idi Amin were mere babes. More importantly, the story here is more about conspiracy and betrayal than outright brutality of the Stalinists et al. Unfortunately, we're very good at eating our own at Melbourne - we've been doing it on and off for 48 years and that's why we're more susceptible to beat ups from Wilson and co. than some of the other clubs.

The Great McCarthy does evoke thoughts of Joseph McCarthy who is definitely the inspiration behind Wilson and the tanking inquisition but the play you're thinking about is And the big men fly. That was about a team called the Crows whose modern day counterpart has ironically been subjected to a taste of AFL justice recently.

I'll award a bonus point for the Demonland quiz comp if you can tell me the connection between ATBMF and Melbourne.

I think Paul Hopgood is the son of Alan, the author ?

The fact is that we've all been had, you included.

Maybe so and that would be a good result.

I know that Caro is seen as a vitriolic sinister character here and any word in her favour places the "supporter" in the same bracket but I can deal with Demonland thinking I'm evil.

The fact is I said "Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good" Of course she will be wrong on occasions, we'll wait and see here.

Many of the attacks on her revolve around non core issues, errors of garnish and the fact she has clearly editorialized her position. But in the main she is the one that has disclosed the core matters that have informed us of what's happening and in her absence we have little further to go on. I don't like what is being said but I want to hear it and she tells me.

Unlike many I'm not worried about Caro's editorial, I'm much more interested in what the AFL think and whilst I don't like the stance Caro's has taken it's not unique - many an MFC supporter was against tanking (or to avoid a silly argument) "list management" at the time for a whole raft of reasons.

I like the fact that in the main she reports things that other reporters don't. I like the provision of information. I trust myself to judge her editorial position and make my own decision and FWIW I think Caro is out of step with the majority of non MFC footy supporters who think we are being victimized and did the best thing for the club. I hold that position too.

I'm also astounded people find me threatening because I like reading her articles. So be it.

There's a vast chasm between reading and advocating validation. You play mighy loose with rhetoric at times Fan.

It's good you feel comfortable. Most of us do, if on opposite wings as it were.

I don't think people are scared of you by being on the Wilson ticket Fan. That is giving yourself too much kudos.

Pity would be a more apt description.

What she has reported could be written in one paragraph.

The embelishment is what MFC supporters and many others take offence to.

I wait for the lawyers to hear anything really interesting.

I'm also astounded people find me threatening because I like reading her articles. So be it.

don't delude yourself fan, we don't in any way find you threatening

divisive, axe-grinding, petulant, grudge bearing, not a team player maybe but certainly not threatening