Disagree. I saw most of Rod's games with us live and if not, on TV and I thought he was hard at the ball and the man. I never saw him shirk a contest. Also saw him cop a few injuries for actually going hard at the ball.

He was hard and tough at the footy.

As for the Mew incident, he connected the back of Rod's shoulder and knocked himself out, not even a free kick and nor should it have been.

I'm most happy to disagree. He was never hard at the footy. I'm not saying he was soft at the footy either, but his tough image is purely for off the ball incidents, or when he was second to the ball and subsequently inflicted damage on the player with the ball.

And I agree with the Mew incident, not that I needed a history lesson, as I wasn't insinuating it was unscrupulous, or unfair.

I don't know about you but I don't use Morton and Gysberts as the yard stick. There's a reason why they were traded in for scrap value. Refusal to be intimidated - great - until it's time to go get the ball. I couldn't give a stuff about jumper punching and butting heads with blokes on the field, that's not toughness and it has no value. I can't believe you'd ignore the "odd shirked contest" and cheer about pretending to be tough. You laud behaviour I find embarrassing.

Nash, I'm not trying to paint Dunn as a toughman of the competition, but i'll be damned if refusal to be bossed by your opponent has no value. Or that standing up for your mate has no value. To say that he has hasn't done these things is not true, whether or not you think his tactics or behaviour are staged. We have been absolutely starved of players that display some form of fight or spirit.

Anyhow, thank god for Jack Viney. No-one can argue that we dont have a player with all the necessary ingredients in him.

Nash, I'm not trying to paint Dunn as a toughman of the competition, but i'll be damned if refusal to be bossed by your opponent has no value. Or that standing up for your mate has no value. To say that he has hasn't done these things is not true, whether or not you think his tactics or behaviour are staged. We have been absolutely starved of players that display some form of fight or spirit.

Anyhow, thank god for Jack Viney. No-one can argue that we dont have a player with all the necessary ingredients in him.

Fair enough. Perhaps "no value" is a bit rough, but in my mind it's more than cancelled out by going to water when the ball is in play. In my mind what happens when the ball is moving trumps everything else, and I think there's something a bit smelly about getting in someone's face when firstly, you know with all the TV cameras watching they're not going to do anything to really hurt you, and secondly when you aren't tough when it matters in footy terms.

Absolutely agree on Viney.

I agree Dunn is faux-tough and the cognoscenti hate him for it - but I've got a bit of time for him - he can actually play and has found a role that really suits him. I recall the incident Left Field highlighted and it was a shocker, but the running with the flight spoil in the BP was all class - that's a very hard skill. If he can fake it until he makes it on the toughness front then he can become a very handy player. He's well in my starting 18 right now.

I agree Dunn is faux-tough and the cognoscenti hate him for it - but I've got a bit of time for him - he can actually play and has found a role that really suits him. I recall the incident Left Field highlighted and it was a shocker, but the running with the flight spoil in the BP was all class - that's a very hard skill. If he can fake it until he makes it on the toughness front then he can become a very handy player. He's well in my starting 18 right now.

That's how I felt by late last year, then a soft effort in the last match and the ones in this year's NAB snapped me back to my previous position. Perhaps I'm guilty letting my (extreme) annoyance at individual incidents cloud my judgement and not looking at the entire picture; something to muse on as the season goes by I guess.

By the way, I can't think of another poster in Demonland history who has caused me to have to Google the meaning of a word more than you have.

That's how I felt by late last year, then a soft effort in the last match and the ones in this year's NAB snapped me back to my previous position. Perhaps I'm guilty letting my (extreme) annoyance at individual incidents cloud my judgement and not looking at the entire picture; something to muse on as the season goes by I guess.

Yet I don't recall you highlighting Watts' pitiful spoiling attempts.

Watts' lack of physicality in spoiling makes Dunn look like Glenn Archer by comparison.

By the way, I can't think of another poster in Demonland history who has caused me to have to Google the meaning of a word more than you have.

I've got the largest one going.

Yet I don't recall you highlighting Watts' pitiful spoiling attempts.

Watts' lack of physicality in spoiling makes Dunn look like Glenn Archer by comparison.

I thought this was a thread about Dunn - sorry.

Disingenuity aside, I'm not really sure what your point is anyway. I've rarely commented on Watts' efforts, positively or negatively. I stay out of those conversations altogether mostly.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by Nasher

Frank ""Bluey" Adams was tough.

Lynden Dunn can kick a footy.

I thought this was a thread about Dunn - sorry.

Disingenuity aside, I'm not really sure what your point is anyway. I've rarely commented on Watts' efforts, positively or negatively. I stay out of those conversations altogether mostly.

You mustn't understand the meaning of "disingenuous".

The thread IS about Dunn and his position in the team. He's looking to stake a claim as a defender and you're rightly highlighting his less than satisfactory spoiling attempts. Watts is also establishing himself as a tall defender and his spoiling attempts are worse, yet you remain silent. You either don't notice, aren't game to "go there", or it doesn't concern you.

If it's the latter you may as well not bother commenting on Dunn and if it's the former I'll lend you some glasses.

NOTE: threads change course ALL of the time.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by Ben-Hur

Being criticised for what you didn't say.

Imagine if the shoe was on the other hoof...

Being criticised for what you didn't say.

Imagine if the shoe was on the other hoof...

It's definitely a first for me. I wonder if Ben's been feeling okay lately - first the bizarre Grinter link to the thread that seemed tenuous at best, then criticizing me for not criticizing Watts in a thread about Dunn. It all seems very odd.

Ben is a Lynden Dunn kind of poster- Happy to go the man to look tough in the public Demonland forum, but when challenged he cracks the sads and puts you on ignore.

It is pure bully behavior, and all bully behavior stems from insecurity.

Yeah, he really stood his ground against that super tough Tyrone Vickery. Showed him a bit of what-for, eh. Not.

Just on this before the chapter on Dunn bashing closes, he can't take much of a trick can he? I don't recall him doing much to warrant the reaction from Vickery, certainly nothing physical. It looked like Tyrone was merely taking out his frustration at how poor he had been all night.

So Dunn drew a free, did nothing to ensure it was reversed, and still gets panned? Curious.

It's definitely a first for me. I wonder if Ben's been feeling okay lately - first the bizarre Grinter link to the thread that seemed tenuous at best, then criticizing me for not criticizing Watts in a thread about Dunn. It all seems very odd.

There's a very strong link. You're wondering whether Dunn should be in the side due to soft spoiling efforts yet Watts makes worse spoiling efforts. I'm trying to establish how you determine a player's value to the team.

The Grinter link merely reinforces the misnomer that players who niggled, or had a reputation as being tough, weren't necessarily tough in my eyes. Being manic at the footy is tough in my eyes. So I gave Grinter as an example to reinforce an incorrect stereotype, such as comments by some on Dunn. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

EDIT: being called to account is a first for you ? I'll have to remember that.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by Ben-Hur

Last weekend, Dunn had the choice to go hard at the ball in a marking contest across half back as he came in from the side and slightly from the front. The minimum standard in that contest was making some body contact. Once again, he swatted at the ball and missed everything. After this many years in the system, I cannot see why people think he is tough (he isn't) or that he is best 22. I don't have him in my team.

He did exactly this in the VFL Finals at Port Melbourne 2011.

He had to go to mark & went under the action, early in the game as well when the game was in the balance. It wasn't for much longer after this.

The other players dropped their heads.

This sort of weak effort is soul destroying for a team.

We don't know what tough is.

Jack Viney will show us soon, but in the meantime don't embarrass yourselves by claiming Dunn is tough.

He ain't.

Plenty of people know what tough is.

its not reserved for AFL.

there are people everywhere who go against the odds & survive what they are doing. in all walks of life.

Tough is overcoming adversity. and doing whats necessary, when required.

In a team its putting the others ahead of your own interests, and sacrificing your interests for the sake of the club & the team. cc.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by dee-luded

There's a very strong link. You're wondering whether Dunn should be in the side due to soft spoiling efforts yet Watts makes worse spoiling efforts. I'm trying to establish how you determine a player's value to the team.

The Grinter link merely reinforces the misnomer that players who niggled, or had a reputation as being tough, weren't necessarily tough in my eyes. Being manic at the footy is tough in my eyes. So I gave Grinter as an example to reinforce an incorrect stereotype, such as comments by some on Dunn. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

EDIT: being called to account is a first for you ? I'll have to remember that.

Ben, we've had this conversation before. http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/30334-jack-watts/page-44#entry571971

The reason I think the Grinter comparison doesn't make sense, because even if we take it as a given that Grinter wasn't the hardest at the ball, he was still clearly a bull at the man. I'd still call that hard - you may not, but I reckon you'd be alone in your definition. Dunn has shown on numerous occasions that he's afraid of any physical contact at all. I realise you're not equating Dunn to Grinter, but I think introducing a player like Grinter in a thread weakens your point.

You even said in the thread I've linked above that "we all know Dunn is worse than Watts", so I'm amazed that you're so dumbfounded. The other main reason I do not go out of my way to slam Watts is because there's enough of it already. Just about everyone is on that bandwagon, it does not need me adding to it. This doesn't mean I don't recognise that he plays a flawed game at times, it just means I choose not to throw petrol on the fire. The issue with Dunn is completely different; I see so many of the posts like the ones in this thread that applaud Dunn for his "toughness". I've seen Dunn clearly avoid physical contact so many times now, that this kind of comment irritates me and I feel compelled to do everything I can to dispell the myth. I've never seen anyone tell me how tough Jack Watts is, so clearly I do not need to post the same comments.

And lastly, I didn't say that this was the first time I'd been called to account; I said it's the first time that someone commented on something I explicitly didn't say. I'm all for being held to account, but only on words I've actually said, not on those I haven't said.

FFS..I said Dunn shows mongrel and spirit. I purposely never used the word "tough" because I acknowledge real toughness in footy takes on other forms.

Done with this topic now. I do hold high hopes for him this season in the actual football side of things.

Ben, we've had this conversation before. http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/30334-jack-watts/page-44#entry571971

The reason I think the Grinter comparison doesn't make sense, because even if we take it as a given that Grinter wasn't the hardest at the ball, he was still clearly a bull at the man. I'd still call that hard - you may not, but I reckon you'd be alone in your definition. Dunn has shown on numerous occasions that he's afraid of any physical contact at all. I realise you're not equating Dunn to Grinter, but I think introducing a player like Grinter in a thread weakens your point.

You even said in the thread I've linked above that "we all know Dunn is worse than Watts", so I'm amazed that you're so dumbfounded. The other main reason I do not go out of my way to slam Watts is because there's enough of it already. Just about everyone is on that bandwagon, it does not need me adding to it. This doesn't mean I don't recognise that he plays a flawed game at times, it just means I choose not to throw petrol on the fire. The issue with Dunn is completely different; I see so many of the posts like the ones in this thread that applaud Dunn for his "toughness". I've seen Dunn clearly avoid physical contact so many times now, that this kind of comment irritates me and I feel compelled to do everything I can to dispell the myth. I've never seen anyone tell me how tough Jack Watts is, so clearly I do not need to post the same comments.

And lastly, I didn't say that this was the first time I'd been called to account; I said it's the first time that someone commented on something I explicitly didn't say. I'm all for being held to account, but only on words I've actually said, not on those I haven't said.

Grinter wasn't soft, but my point was that a player can be stereotyped as tough when they're not. Imo, Grinter wasn't "tough".

Dunn has heard "footsteps" far more often than Watts, but Watts is a worse spoiler than Dunn. Watts has less physicality than Dunn. When I made the comments that you linked I was referring to Dunn's marking attempts as a forward, we're now talking about both as spoilers in the back-line and Watts' efforts are worse. So when I see you explicitly being concerned by Dunn's spoiling attempts without mentioning Watts you gain my interest.

I'm now assessing both as defenders, not as the failed forwards they once were.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by Ben-Hur

Grinter wasn't soft, but my point was that a player can be stereotyped as tough when they're not. Imo, Grinter wasn't "tough".

Dunn has heard "footsteps" far more often than Watts, but Watts is a worse spoiler than Dunn. Watts has less physicality than Dunn. When I made the comments that you linked I was referring to Dunn's marking attempts as a forward, we're now talking about both as spoilers in the back-line and Watts' efforts are worse. So when I see you explicitly being concerned by Dunn's spoiling attempts without mentioning Watts you gain my interest.

I'm now assessing both as defenders, not as the failed forwards they once were.

I think they both share a problem with spoiling and one is not better or worse than the other, you either spoil effectively or you don't and your opponent gets the ball.

I didn't think Dunn made good choices last week and some have been clouded into thinking he played well because of his long kicking, some to not so good positions. I think Dunn has done well to hold a place on the senior list but I also think he is in a very similar position to Matty Bate who was moved into the midfield to see if he could revive his career last year, unfortunately he failed. It's in Dunn's hands now.

As a defender Watts has a long way to go but as an attacking option off half back I would say he is streets ahead of anyone else we have and is a lock to take a spot. Dunn has a bit of competition to lock down one of the other defensive posts. That's my assessment.

Just on this before the chapter on Dunn bashing closes, he can't take much of a trick can he? I don't recall him doing much to warrant the reaction from Vickery, certainly nothing physical. It looked like Tyrone was merely taking out his frustration at how poor he had been all night.

So Dunn drew a free, did nothing to ensure it was reversed, and still gets panned? Curious.

Can you imagine Glen Archer, Jonno Brown, Paul Chapman, etc putting up with being rag dolled by Vickery in the way Dunn was? I lol'ed when a watched that. Dunn almost looked scared. Summed up Melbourne's last 6 yrs.

Rod Grinter is lauded as a tough man and while he certainly ironed out a few, notably Chris Mew in the prelim, he was never overly hard or tough at the actual footy. It's easy to get a reputation for what you do off the ball, but far harder to get a reputation for being hard when you're exposed and the only thing in front of you is the footy.

Ben,

You're wrong again.

Grinter was the epitome of tough.

He ran hard and straight and never deviated, slowed down, or dodged a collision.

His primary focus was the ball on 99% of occasions. He was also fearless in the air.

His skills were also very good.

His reputation should remain in tact.

and so should yours with comments like those.

I'm really looking forward to the day when we're fighting over who is the toughest player in the team and not the softest.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by Goodvibes

Can you imagine Glen Archer, Jonno Brown, Paul Chapman, etc putting up with being rag dolled by Vickery in the way Dunn was? I lol'ed when a watched that. Dunn almost looked scared. Summed up Melbourne's last 6 yrs.

So essentially, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he reacts and gets stuck in, he's faux-tough. If he chooses not to react, he's scared..

Okay, NOW it's the last word. :D