Craig Cameron and Barry Prendergast ... What have you done!

[BarrassHarrass 25]

i reckon you should look back to the suggested recruits at draft time here on Demonland Nutbean...see who the posters were touting and then see what we did on draft day. Thus far, Darling was a miss as Lucas Cook will be a pimply faced bean pole for years to come. John Butcher was another of the punters favourites as I recall. We missed him and then paid massive overs for a ruckman come key forward in Mitch Clark aa few seasons later. At this time, NikNat is ahead of Watts yet we preferred the Brighton Grammar party boy yachting type. I will wait 2 more years to call this one. What you seem to miss however, is the fact we recruited too many of the same player and now have massive massive gaping holes in our list. It was not a horses for courses approach as far as I am concerned. We missed the opportunity to fill needs that we all saw first-hand on saturday

[Arsene Wenger 72]

No we do not have the stars, which is exactly why we should have upped the quota of experienced players. So many of our draft picks are still in kindergarten.

Can the club afford another 5 years of rubbish onfield?

No it cannot. You watch GW$ & GC $un$ will overtake us and people will bring up excuses for it.

Don't you understand what you're saying?

Fill the list with more NQR mature bodied players, which are already THE VERY PROBLEM, and not have any of the talented kids... that's a solution to nothing.

[Sir Why You Little 34,855]

Don't you understand what you're saying?

Fill the list with more NQR mature bodied players, which are already THE VERY PROBLEM, and not have any of the talented kids... that's a solution to nothing.

Where did i suggest NQR Mature Bodies??

You did that.

The Swans know the game. We could do well to be competitive for a prolonged period. Build a culture on hard work rather than tank.

"Failure requires no Preparation"

[Radar Detector 1,339]

We didn't recruit a bunch of skinny kids with the expectation of winning a flag in 2012. And unforseen circumstances (e.g. Scully) have pushed our window back a little. But thankfully more patient heads are running the club than most on here. None of us want to be waiting forever but a lot of the recent draft picks will end up very good footballers.

FWIW, our midfield - perpetually our biggest weakness - looked bad on the weekend for precisely the reason most of you guys are up in arms. We had too many tough inside mids who can't spread or dispose of the footy. Could've used a couple more skilful "Brighton Grammar" types.

The hole in our leadership has meant that recruiters have literally had to build a list from scratch. Look at the spread of types we've drafted over the last few years and I haven't even listed all the picks...

Grunt mids (Jetta, McKenzie, Trengove, Tapscott, Taggert)

Taller mids who will take longer to develop (Morton, Gysberts)

Running mids (Bail, Scully, Blease)

Flankers (Grimes, Bennell, Jurrah,Strauss, Howe, Tynan)

KPPs (Watts, Cook, Fitz, McDonald, Davis, Clark, Sellar)

Rucks (Martin, Fitz, Gawn)

We haven't had the luxury of focussing on particular types because we've needed new types all over the field.

[Arsene Wenger 72]

Where did i suggest NQR Mature Bodies??

You did that.

The Swans know the game. We could do well to be competitive for a prolonged period. Build a culture on hard work rather than tank.

"Failure requires no Preparation"

FFS...

The only mature-bodied players we'd be able to attract would be NQR ones.

We were trying the whole time to attract the decent ones and the best we got was bloody Joel Macdonald.

Sydney did it well, but they managed to pick up the very few decent discards on offer.

Plus they've been able to offer something we couldn't - a winning club in a city with a significantly smaller spotlight.

I even offered St Kilda as a comparision, for a club littered with stars that tried to do the same - and ended up with some shocking names.

You'd have us even further in the mire, for a lesser benefit.

Congratulations.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,616]

And I asked all the geniuses who keep looking in the rear vision mirror on recruiting to talk about who we "should have taken" at last years draft and besides one well considered response there was dead silence.

The whole Scully/Trengove and we should have interviewed Martin is such a nonsense. I am going to interview Bob Katter before the next election before deciding between Julia and Tony.( if we draft any of those three I will be mightily disappointed).

Not one recruiter in the land would have taken Martin before those two so I wish everyone would stop harping on this.

Happy to concede on Darling over Cook if thats how it turns out yet I want to wait until Cook is out of nappies before making a call on him.

We can bang on about Watts and Niknat as this was a real choice we had to make and if Niknat turns out to be a champion and Watts not then happy to say our recruiters got it wrong - but give it a rest on Martin. All the keyboard genius's who thought we should have taken Martin show me the money ( and dont give me the palookah " thats what recruiters are paid the big money for")

I agree 100% on Sully/Trengove - doesn't matter what happened we were never going to pick Martin but it still wouldn't have hurt to do some more homework on him. Chances are if we did pick him it would be at the expense of Trengove anyhow, not Scully.

However I wanted Talia - we picked Gysberts.

I wanted Darling - we picked Cook.

The others (2007 & 2008) I didn't pay close enough attention but surely there is something wrong if both Blease & Strauss end up busts considering who was picked in the 10 picks after them.

rpfc I agree our drafting from 2001 has been horrendous, the recent drafting we had prime picks though so you would have expected with the amount of top 20 picks we had we could have built an entire team around but it is not looking the case. It is looking more like Richmond having 5 top 20 picks and drafting Oakliegh-Nicholls and the rest of the duds.

[Sir Why You Little 34,855]

FFS...

The only mature-bodied players we'd be able to attract would be NQR ones.

We were trying the whole time to attract the decent ones and the best we got was bloody Joel Macdonald.

Sydney did it well, but they managed to pick up the very few decent discards on offer.

Plus they've been able to offer something we couldn't - a winning club in a city with a significantly smaller spotlight.

I even offered St Kilda as a comparision, for a club littered with stars that tried to do the same - and ended up with some shocking names.

You'd have us even further in the mire, for a lesser benefit.

Congratulations.

And you will still have the same excuses in 5-6 years time. Be Patient. With Free Agency in less than a year away, we know longer have unlimited time up our sleeve.

The club had to get the tanking years right under Bailey. There was no room to fail. And they got it wrong.

Now Neeld who thankfully is a tough bastard has twice the job to do.

[Arsene Wenger 72]

And you will still have the same excuses in 5-6 years time. Be Patient. With Free Agency in less than a year away, we know longer have unlimited time up our sleeve.

The club had to get the tanking years right under Bailey. There was no room to fail. And they got it wrong.

Now Neeld who thankfully is a tough bastard has twice the job to do.

What excuses?

I'm just pointing how your strategy would have lead to an ultimately more bleak future, or even none at all.

Our club's situation combined with Daniher's list strategy mortgaged our future.

Not intentionally, and I'm not sure what else he could have done.

But we are on the way to rebuilding the club, and building the list is taking longer. And it has to come 2nd.

It is possible, but it takes time.

This article on Brian Cook is practically a blueprint:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/brian-cook-the-key-in-turning-geelong-into-a-monster/story-fnctrk3q-1226315350704

[nutbean 8,837]

i reckon you should look back to the suggested recruits at draft time here on Demonland Nutbean...see who the posters were touting and then see what we did on draft day. Thus far, Darling was a miss as Lucas Cook will be a pimply faced bean pole for years to come. John Butcher was another of the punters favourites as I recall. We missed him and then paid massive overs for a ruckman come key forward in Mitch Clark aa few seasons later. At this time, NikNat is ahead of Watts yet we preferred the Brighton Grammar party boy yachting type. I will wait 2 more years to call this one. What you seem to miss however, is the fact we recruited too many of the same player and now have massive massive gaping holes in our list. It was not a horses for courses approach as far as I am concerned. We missed the opportunity to fill needs that we all saw first-hand on saturday

And if you re-read my post I am happy to concede on Darling and Niknat as they were choices we had to make and we should be judged on them. (albeit with more water under the bridge - I dont judge 20/21 year olds with 40 games and under to their credit)

It is this Martin thing I cannot stomach over Scully and Trengove - direct me to where at draft time people said we should take him over Scullgrove. Tell me where anyone suggested that.

You have brought up Butcher.

Butcher was a favourite some 8 months out but slipped in the rankings by all the experts and was in the same draft as Scullgrove. Point me anywhere at draft time where he was touted as being as good a pick as Scullgrove ? rear vision stuff again.

We keep judging our recruiters after the fact when our players dont turn out as well as they should and others turn out better. So easy to do that. We have recruited a lot of the same - inside players, outside players, talls, smalls - the sameness is not in the blend of players we take but that none have come on to this point in time . The holes we have in our list is not from who we have recruited but how they have turned out and I keep barking out the same thing. We have failed in the developing who we have recruited. We have failed to instill in the more senior recruits that close enough is not good enough.

I will pick the perfect case in point - Sam Blease. Point blank refused to chase on Saturday-I called for his subbing after a few observations of watching his woeful defensive chases - he has got pace to burn when he has the ball but not so when he doesnt. I will be interested to see Neeld's handling of him and seeing if we can develop him. The Collingwood regime turned that front running show pony Thomas into a willing combatant in BOTH directions -I wonder if we will see Blease develop. I honestly see Blease ( and to an extent Bennell) as Neelds limtus tests.

Our forward coach is an example of a club developing a player into exactly what they wanted. Recruiting is just a fraction of the picture. Setting the bar high and making players accountable for good and bad performances is the development side of the picture which is where we have failed and I hope Neeld can do what the teacher Bailey was unable to do. Develop them !

[nutbean 8,837]

rpfc I agree our drafting from 2001 has been horrendous, the recent drafting we had prime picks though so you would have expected with the amount of top 20 picks we had we could have built an entire team around but it is not looking the case. It is looking more like Richmond having 5 top 20 picks and drafting Oakliegh-Nicholls and the rest of the duds.

I dont want to talk for RPFC but I cant see where he said our drafting from 2001 has been horrendous. I can see where he says our player development 2001-2005 has been poor. If this is what RPFC is saying then I agree.

[rjay 24,042]

I wish they did. At least we'd then have Shuey, Zaharakis, Darling and we would have, at the very minimum, interviewed Dustin Martin.

No unfortunately even Emma got that one wrong.

[Sir Why You Little 34,855]

What excuses?

I'm just pointing how your strategy would have lead to an ultimately more bleak future, or even none at all.

Our club's situation combined with Daniher's list strategy mortgaged our future.

Not intentionally, and I'm not sure what else he could have done.

But we are on the way to rebuilding the club, and building the list is taking longer. And it has to come 2nd.

It is possible, but it takes time.

This article on Brian Cook is practically a blueprint:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/brian-cook-the-key-in-turning-geelong-into-a-monster/story-fnctrk3q-1226315350704

I agree on the above AW. But we had to get that initial 4 years right. That is the big worry i have now.

If only there was a mid season draft. We could use it.

[rpfc 27,635]

rpfc I agree our drafting from 2001 has been horrendous, the recent drafting we had prime picks though so you would have expected with the amount of top 20 picks we had we could have built an entire team around but it is not looking the case. It is looking more like Richmond having 5 top 20 picks and drafting Oakliegh-Nicholls and the rest of the duds.

I dont want to talk for RPFC but I cant see where he said our drafting from 2001 has been horrendous. I can see where he says our player development 2001-2005 has been poor. If this is what RPFC is saying then I agree.

You're both right but you both slightly miss what I am saying.

I am saying that the predicament we are in is because of those drafted from 2001-2005 - those that would be 25 to 29 right now.

It is not because of the recent drafting years.

And maybe it wasn't our drafting, but our inability to develop players that is the reason...

I just want to get away from our recent recruiting impacting how crap we are now, it's a red herring that let's our lack of solid senior players, the inability to add good senior players, and those that haven't developed those players off the hook.

Edited April 2, 2012 by rpfc

[Arsene Wenger 72]

I agree on the above AW. But we had to get that initial 4 years right. That is the big worry i have now.

If only there was a mid season draft. We could use it.

I don't know that there's conclusive evidence that we haven't.

Squabbling over skinny draftees is to ignore the real issue - and that is that the club needs to be in order before worrying too much about the draft selections.

And I know that mature-bodied players would have been ideal, but I don't think we truly had access to any quality ones that would have made a positive difference.

Luke Ball would have, but I don't think he was a realistic option.

[dee-luded 2,958]

And if you re-read my post I am happy to concede on Darling and Niknat as they were choices we had to make and we should be judged on them. (albeit with more water under the bridge - I dont judge 20/21 year olds with 40 games and under to their credit)

It is this Martin thing I cannot stomach over Scully and Trengove - direct me to where at draft time people said we should take him over Scullgrove. Tell me where anyone suggested that.

You have brought up Butcher.

Butcher was a favourite some 8 months out but slipped in the rankings by all the experts and was in the same draft as Scullgrove. Point me anywhere at draft time where he was touted as being as good a pick as Scullgrove ? rear vision stuff again.

We keep judging our recruiters after the fact when our players dont turn out as well as they should and others turn out better. So easy to do that. We have recruited a lot of the same - inside players, outside players, talls, smalls - the sameness is not in the blend of players we take but that none have come on to this point in time . The holes we have in our list is not from who we have recruited but how they have turned out and I keep barking out the same thing. We have failed in the developing who we have recruited. We have failed to instill in the more senior recruits that close enough is not good enough.

I will pick the perfect case in point - Sam Blease. Point blank refused to chase on Saturday-I called for his subbing after a few observations of watching his woeful defensive chases - he has got pace to burn when he has the ball but not so when he doesnt. I will be interested to see Neeld's handling of him and seeing if we can develop him. The Collingwood regime turned that front running show pony Thomas into a willing combatant in BOTH directions -I wonder if we will see Blease develop. I honestly see Blease ( and to an extent Bennell) as Neelds limtus tests.

Our forward coach is an example of a club developing a player into exactly what they wanted. Recruiting is just a fraction of the picture. Setting the bar high and making players accountable for good and bad performances is the development side of the picture which is where we have failed and I hope Neeld can do what the teacher Bailey was unable to do. Develop them !

I agree wholeheartedly with this nutbean. Recruiting is just the beginning of the process.

The clubs culture (all of us, inc past players as well) provides the type of environment that will Steer the young players this way, or that....

[Bonkers 918]

I believe that are 'recruitment' looks worse because the kids are being exposed by the non-existence of the senior players.

They have to do more than kids at other teams, and when they don't - we rail on them.

We are deep within a false economy here and the only remedy is time, or an aggressive FA period.

And for OD who is thinking "rpfc, what if those kids never make it?"

What else can we do than continue forward? We can't make wholesale changes, we have to develop what we have - that's why Neeld, Craig, and Misson get paid the big bucks.

That's right the quality at the ages of 25 & above has either diminished or is just not there. IMO the club needs to bring in free agent mids whether they are elite or not, anything will be better than what we have at the moment. There is a group of players I wouldn't hesitate to delist & we could even look at bringing in a couple of VFL players on the rookie list for next year. IMO there will be a minimum of 8 delistings at the end of this year, probably more.

[bing181 8,224]

John Butcher was another of the punters favourites as I recall. We missed him ...

How did we miss him, given he went at pick 8? The only way we could have got him was by not taking one of Trengove or Scully .. or Martin or whoever else for that matter. He wasn't there at our next pick (Gysberts).

Understand people's frustrations, but don't know that this kind of revisionism is the solution. In any case, as above, it's not the drafting of the last 4-5 years that's the cause of our current problems, go back more like 10 years to see what's not worked.

Also, before sticking the boots into BP - or more like it, CC, let's not forget that they did draft a couple of elite players - just not for MFC. Jolly and Scott Thompson. Speaking of Thompson, who's about as elite as it gets, he was at Melbourne for 3 fairly mediocre years, and it subsequently took him until his seventh season to really become what he is.

[Sir Why You Little 34,855]

I don't know that there's conclusive evidence that we haven't.

Squabbling over skinny draftees is to ignore the real issue - and that is that the club needs to be in order before worrying too much about the draft selections.

And I know that mature-bodied players would have been ideal, but I don't think we truly had access to any quality ones that would have made a positive difference.

Luke Ball would have, but I don't think he was a realistic option.

Fair points. I agree.

Jack Darling was a shocking miss. Solid kid ready to play.

Lucas Cook may well be great. I hope he is. But he is a 5 year prospect, that only top sides should gamble on.

The club was too careful, and i think they now realize it. Hence the coach we have appointed, who will fast track this list, losing the odd player as he goes.

The squabbling board issue is just another MFC excuse. And i really hope G. Lyon walked straight through it.

Edited April 2, 2012 by why you little

[Dr. Gonzo 22,616]

You're both right but you both slightly miss what I am saying.

I am saying that the predicament we are in is because of those drafted from 2001-2005 - those that would be 25 to 29 right now.

It is not because of the recent drafting years.

And maybe it wasn't our drafting, but our inability to develop players that is the reason...

I just want to get away from our recent recruiting impacting how crap we are now, it's a red herring that let's our lack of solid senior players, the inability to add good senior players, and those that haven't developed those players off the hook.

Going from memory here, but in those years we picked up Miller, Rivers, Molan, Smith, Thompson? Thompson is the only A-Grader there and he ditched us as soon as he had the chance.

[Guest Dr Who]

Thompson is the only A-Grader there and he ditched us as soon as he had the chance.

That might tell you something if you thought about it long enough.

[Guest Dr Who]

Jack Darling was a shocking miss.

A "shocking miss" by every team in the league. The best use of social media in AFL football I've seen in 2 years. Give credit where credit is due - Well done Eagles.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,616]

That might tell you something if you thought about it long enough.

I don't have to think about it at all - it' blatantly obvious.

[praha 10,358]

We didn't recruit a bunch of skinny kids with the expectation of winning a flag in 2012. And unforseen circumstances (e.g. Scully) have pushed our window back a little. But thankfully more patient heads are running the club than most on here. None of us want to be waiting forever but a lot of the recent draft picks will end up very good footballers.

FWIW, our midfield - perpetually our biggest weakness - looked bad on the weekend for precisely the reason most of you guys are up in arms. We had too many tough inside mids who can't spread or dispose of the footy. Could've used a couple more skilful "Brighton Grammar" types.

The hole in our leadership has meant that recruiters have literally had to build a list from scratch. Look at the spread of types we've drafted over the last few years and I haven't even listed all the picks...

Grunt mids (Jetta, McKenzie, Trengove, Tapscott, Taggert)

Taller mids who will take longer to develop (Morton, Gysberts)

Running mids (Bail, Scully, Blease)

Flankers (Grimes, Bennell, Jurrah,Strauss, Howe, Tynan)

KPPs (Watts, Cook, Fitz, McDonald, Davis, Clark, Sellar)

Rucks (Martin, Fitz, Gawn)

We haven't had the luxury of focussing on particular types because we've needed new types all over the field.

Watts in the middle.

[thaipantsman 180]

The thing is Bailey was seen as a good teacher and development coach so what does that tell you? I don't know but it is truly laughable and for what its worth I agree 100%. It can't ALL come down to drafting especially when we have had so many good picks.

Bailey was a legacy of Gary Lyon. Appointed by Gary Lyon as was Neeld.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,616]

I don't really see the relevance to what I posted?