I'd take Martin for Beamer. yes it's a pipe dream, but they have no one else I would want. That includes Cotchin and Deledio

Brent now gets more touches in our wins ( 4 more ) . So he's improved yeah ?

Cheers

Ah, no. It's getting more stark.

2011

Wins: 28.5

Losses: 19.5

2010

Wins: 26.6

Losses: 21.3

Jones 2011

W: 23.8

L: 23.3

Trengove 2011

W: 20.6

L: 19.9

BTW, Davey and Green are not great in this field either, I will put their spreads in the appropriate threads later.

Ah, no. It's getting more stark.

2011

Wins: 28.5

Losses: 19.5

2010

Wins: 26.6

Losses: 21.3

Jones 2011

W: 23.8

L: 23.3

Trengove 2011

W: 20.6

L: 19.9

BTW, Davey and Green are not great in this field either, I will put their spreads in the appropriate threads later.

It depends on how you want to view the stats 'rp'

I could argue that Brent gets similar stats to Jones and Treng®ove in our losses and then steps it up a gear in our wins . And I could also argue that his stats are more valuable than Jones' .( win or lose )

And is averaging 19.5 possessions in our losses that bad ? Brent needs to be compared to other players of his ilk in other teams . Not the great players but other solid nuggety goers . I reckon his stats would stack up rather well .

Oh , I noticed he is down a massive 1.8 possessions per game in our losses from 2010 to 2011 . That's less about 1 handball per half . ( And given that a lot of our handballs travel 1 metre to a stationary target surrounded by opposition players , no great loss hey ? )

His tackle count in losses went from 4 per game to 6 per game from 2010 to 2011 . Thats 1 extra tackle per half . I'll take the tackle over the 1 metre handpass 'rp' !

Cheers

Pertinant to 2011

1 - Without Moloney our midfield is cactus

2 - Without Moloney we win less games

3 - He is a sometimes matchwinner

4 - He leads the club in clearances / Hardball gets / contested possessions

5 - 19 brownlow votes

6 - B & F

7 - The opposition know that if they shut him down it's game over .

8 - He gets very little support in the midfield generally ( which must be taxing )

And the whole team is largely poor in most of our losses .

2012 - Hopefully it all changes and we get an even spread right across the whole midfield .

I can't help but think if Brent was still in the LG then he wouldn't be copping it as much . It's a classic case of opportunism by some .

And to say he had a poor year is just not right .

Cheers

I am not denigrating the worth of Beamer at all. But i still say his 2011 was very inconsistent. He won the Bluey because nobody else was better. But his year overall was good not great.

The whole club stumbled badly last year. The last 6 months testify to that.

Don Bradman

In winning Test matches he averaged 130.08

In losing Test matches he averaged 43.27 .

Just another "flat track" bully apparently !

Scroll down to point 88 on this link for the info .............................

http://www.heraldsun...o-1111117799367

And he never polled a vote in the Alan Border Medal.

I am not denigrating the worth of Beamer at all. But i still say his 2011 was very inconsistent. He won the Bluey because nobody else was better. But his year overall was good not great.

The whole club stumbled badly last year. The last 6 months testify to that.

Yep Wyl , we normally agree on lots of things and I agree with you about our overall year last year but Moloney was a worthy winner of the 'Bluey' IMO .

I could question other winners of the Bluey ( esp when we've been really bad ) but I prefer to be less critical .

I always think that I may meet 'said' person one day . Not sure I'd like it to go like this ................

"Ah , g'day Brent , pleased to meet you , you were crap last year" !

Cheers

Yep Wyl , we normally agree on lots of things and I agree with you about our overall year last year but Moloney was a worthy winner of the 'Bluey' IMO .

I could question other winners of the Bluey ( esp when we've been really bad ) but I prefer to be less critical .

I always think that I may meet 'said' person one day . Not sure I'd like it to go like this ................

"Ah , g'day Brent , pleased to meet you , you were crap last year" !

Cheers

I have never used the word crap. I said inconsistent. Big difference.

I think Beamer would agree.

it goes without saying...better ( winning) teams obviously had better players in tehir midfileds. These provided greater competition and accountability to any opposition ( including us ).

Beamer , god bless his little heart , has a tendency to take onb all comers, he mightily stands his ground and grimly we he give up the ball before time. Here , in this , does he come unstuck against the better teams. Last year he tempered this and modified his game somewhat resulting in a much better result .. He still needs to take a step up otherwise tehresults might be similar. he needs to adapt his game to the better sides. itll be interesting

You still haven't raised the bar Macca...in 2011 he went backwards (as did the whole team)...it was a poor year, regardless of the Bluey.

Poor year ? Am I reading this right ? Brent or Team or both ? Poor kinda equals crap yeah ?

And my expectations are always relatively high with regards to the footy club . I was as frustrated as the next person re last year .

The silver lining for me is we can play some quite good footy on occasions , the list has some untapped talent ( Trengove , Watts , Tapscott , Clark , Gysberts , Howe , Jurrah and others ) and we have a whole new FD .

Cheers

It depends on how you want to view the stats 'rp'

I could argue that Brent gets similar stats to Jones and Treng®ove in our losses and then steps it up a gear in our wins . And I could also argue that his stats are more valuable than Jones' .( win or lose )

And is averaging 19.5 possessions in our losses that bad ? Brent needs to be compared to other players of his ilk in other teams . Not the great players but other solid nuggety goers . I reckon his stats would stack up rather well .

Oh , I noticed he is down a massive 1.8 possessions per game in our losses from 2010 to 2011 . That's less about 1 handball per half . ( And given that a lot of our handballs travel 1 metre to a stationary target surrounded by opposition players , no great loss hey ? )

His tackle count in losses went from 4 per game to 6 per game from 2010 to 2011 . Thats 1 extra tackle per half . I'll take the tackle over the 1 metre handpass 'rp' !

Cheers

Its not about how he performs in losses as we lose plenty. Its about how he performs against the better teams than against the bottom sides. Work out his averages against the bottom 5 sides and the top 5 sides and put them against Jones and Trengove and tell me how they look? He clearly excels against the cellardwellers and goes missing against the more mature better line ups.

Moloney is clearly our best midfielder at present. We need him to be our 4th-6th best midfielder if we are to win a flag. He may improve his standing if he works on his defensive game and shortens the gap between his best and worst.

I saw Robbie Flower get beaten more than a few times in his career ( against good sides )

Cheers

Unfortunately more often than not every side was a good side compared to us in those days and Robbie was often played out of position as a KPP during the Barassi reign.

I also saw him play some great games against great players and teams, he gave supporters something to hang on to in dark times.

Unfortunately more often than not every side was a good side compared to us in those days and Robbie was often played out of position as a KPP during the Barassi reign.

I also saw him play some great games against great players and teams, he gave supporters something to hang on to in dark times.

Well 'rjay' , the point I was trying to make is that even the great players have off days .

I saw all of Robbie's career and he's the best demon I've seen , though Greg Wells hardly ever played a bad game .

I remember seeing Peter Rhode towel Robbie up at the MCG once . ( on the wing ) . As no doubt many know , Peter later came to our club and played over 100 games for us . I always felt we got him to our club because of his game that day on Robbie .

Here's the game I think ? ........................

http://stats.rleague...1119860531.html

Edit - Going to give the "Great" Robbie Flower the benefit of the doubt because he didn't play the following week . Must have been carrying an injury that day against the Blues !

Cheers

Just on stats.Compared to last year and the top 3 clubs , we need another 1600 kicks and 6 or 700 handballs.

Don Bradman

In winning Test matches he averaged 130.08

In losing Test matches he averaged 43.27 .

Just another "flat track" bully apparently !

Scroll down to point 88 on this link for the info .............................

http://www.heraldsun...o-1111117799367

Could not think of a greater chalk and cheese analogy posted on this site!

If we compare Beamer with Bradman it means Beamer get 70 touches a game against the weaker teams when he plays well and 30 touches when he plays badly.

Beamer aint in that stratosphere. (FWIW. most Test batsman would give their right arm to retire with an average of 43.27)

Well 'rjay' , the point I was trying to make is that even the great players have off days .

Beamer is not a great player. And Bradman had few off days.

Its not about how he performs in losses as we lose plenty. Its about how he performs against the better teams than against the bottom sides. Work out his averages against the bottom 5 sides and the top 5 sides and put them against Jones and Trengove and tell me how they look? He clearly excels against the cellardwellers and goes missing against the more mature better line ups.

Moloney is clearly our best midfielder at present. We need him to be our 4th-6th best midfielder if we are to win a flag. He may improve his standing if he works on his defensive game and shortens the gap between his best and worst.

Well stated Big Red.

And for those you surprised at Beamer not being in the leadership. Neeld has stated that he has picked the leadership group on what he has observed at the Club since he has been there. He removed Beamer. As well as Green, Davey and Rivers. Neeld does not rate Moloney as appropriate as a leader.

Could not think of a greater chalk and cheese analogy posted on this site!

If we compare Beamer with Bradman it means Beamer get 70 touches a game against the weaker teams when he plays well and 30 touches when he plays badly.

Beamer aint in that stratosphere. (FWIW. most Test batsman would give their right arm to retire with an average of 43.27)

Beamer is not a great player. And Bradman had few off days.

For a start I never called Moloney a great player . He was our best player last year though . If you disagree feel free to name another player who was better .

And how is comparing any sportspersons winning stats vs losing stats not a good analogy ?

I could provide numerous examples of good/very good players in footy having similar differences to Moloney in their stats with regards to their teams winning or losing . Full forwards are your classic example but this situation is a lot easier to "explain" . Though FF's are still a very good pointer . For Full backs the reverse might apply .

Btw , I dIdn't start the Stats angle . Go back in the thread . Top of page 2 .

Also , I was never comparing Moloney to Bradman . I was comparing the numbers not the talent .

When the key man performs the side benefits . When he is below par , the others are exposed .

Cheers

Edit - See post below for Chris Judd's W/L stats

Ok , I did the stats on Chris Judd for 2011

Keep in mind that I'm not comparing Moloney to Judd talent wise . I'm just comparing the stats .

Judd's average possessions when Carlton won - 28.33

And his average possessions when Carlton lost - 22.87

Brent's stats were 28.5 when we won and 19.5 when we lost ( 21 if the Geelong game is taken out )

I could mount a "stats" argument that if Moloney increases his 'loss' possessions by 3 per game then ..................

One other point - It's rather hard to get 28-30 possessions when your team is getting thrashed . One major reason is that the other mob have got the ball a lot .

Cheers

The bottom line is the numbers are irrelevant to the fact that Moloney best against weak oppositions represent a yawning gap between to where he is invisible against quality oppositions. Its not the fact that players have variations in form. Hell, there human!! However Beamers variation is wide and low end of his performances are too frequent and too often against good opposition. And its not just measured by number of possessions. Blind Freddie could see his absence in big games and his touches are clearly ineffective and do not impact. Thats why he has been given the flat track bully reference. And you were making a comparison and a poor one with Bradman when you tried to allude he was a flat track bully. And your stats highlight the complete opposite with Bradman.

For someone who has stated that "my expectations are always relatively high with regards to the footy club "Its clear you make exceptions for the individual. You need to stop trying to fudge the numbers to create an outcome.

You still dont get it. It is not about how he performs in losses which I agree of course your numbers can be expected to drop. It is about his performances against the top teams compared to the bottom teams. If you want to look at it in averages look at him compared to some other mids and maybe you will finally get it.

Moloney 2011 avg vs top 5 (16.8*) avg vs bottom 5 (29.6) variance (-12.8)

Judd 2011 avg vs top 5 (23) avg vs bottom 5 (29) variance (-6)

Swan avg vs top 5 (31.8) avg vs bottom 5 (31.2) variance (+.6)

Ablett avg vs top 5 (32.7) avg vs bottom 5 (29.8) variance (+2.9)

* taking out the Geelong game Moloneys avg is 19.2 still 10 possessions less.

Geez, that Judd guy isn't very good. He must be part of a poor midfield.

You still dont get it. It is not about how he performs in losses which I agree of course your numbers can be expected to drop. It is about his performances against the top teams compared to the bottom teams. If you want to look at it in averages look at him compared to some other mids and maybe you will finally get it.

Moloney 2011 avg vs top 5 (16.8*) avg vs bottom 5 (29.6) variance (-12.8)

Judd 2011 avg vs top 5 (23) avg vs bottom 5 (29) variance (-6)

Swan avg vs top 5 (31.8) avg vs bottom 5 (31.2) variance (+.6)

Ablett avg vs top 5 (32.7) avg vs bottom 5 (29.8) variance (+2.9)

* taking out the Geelong game Moloneys avg is 19.2 still 10 possessions less.

Yep , and I have presented stats that paint a different picture . And I could present lots more .

Not so much to prove that my stats are right but to prove that .............

'There are lies , damned lies and statistics' Mark Twain

The bottom line is you ( and others ) see Brent dropping off too much against the better teams .

I see a player who plays better against the poorer sides and is his normal self against the better teams

Oh , and just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I 'Don't get it' . It simply means I don't agree with you .

Cheers

I can't believe people are fighting so hard to 'explain away' to disturbing discrepancy between Moloney's best games and his worst games.

The guy goes missing when you need him the most.

If he doesn't know that I am sure someone at the club will soon tell him.

Oh, and comparing him to a dominant force like Judd and Bradman is disingenuous. They are a buttress, a pillar to rely on - Moloney is not that dominant force. He's just a 'battler' as Macca has stipulated. (Except in the clearances where he is near elite).

Judd 2011

W: 28.4

L: 22.9

Judd 2010

W: 26.8

L: 27.1

Judd 2009

W: 26.9

L: 25.9

I can't believe people are fighting so hard to 'explain away' to disturbing discrepancy between Moloney's best games and his worst games.

The guy goes missing when you need him the most.

If he doesn't know that I am sure someone at the club will soon tell him.

Oh, and comparing him to a dominant force like Judd and Bradman is disingenuous. They are a buttress, a pillar to rely on - Moloney is not that dominant force. He's just a 'battler' as Macca has stipulated. (Except in the clearances where he is near elite).

Judd 2012

W: 28.4

L: 22.9

Judd 2011

W: 26.8

L: 27.1

Judd 2010

W: 26.9

L: 25.9

I noticed that Juddy did quite well again in 2012 'rp' ! How did Brent go ?

Rip Van Winkle here .

Cheers

I can't believe people are fighting so hard to 'explain away' to disturbing discrepancy between Moloney's best games and his worst games.

The guy goes missing when you need him the most.

If he doesn't know that I am sure someone at the club will soon tell him.

Oh, and comparing him to a dominant force like Judd and Bradman is disingenuous. They are a buttress, a pillar to rely on - Moloney is not that dominant force. He's just a 'battler' as Macca has stipulated. (Except in the clearances where he is near elite).

Judd 2012

W: 28.4

L: 22.9

Judd 2011

W: 26.8

L: 27.1

Judd 2010

W: 26.9

L: 25.9

Succintly put.

I noticed that Juddy did quite well again in 2012 'rp' ! How did Brent go ?

Rip Van Winkle here .

Cheers

Very well against poor sides and games we dominate.

And pathetic, by his standards, against better teams.

Jones, apparently not as prolific a possession gatherer as Moloney finished with only 2 possessions less than Moloney last season because of the fact that Moloney was 'the little girl with a curl.'